What are you expecting for a solo Incarnate path?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-17 20:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is the one thing I really hope the new Dark Astoria has less of. They're so overused now it's silly. I can handle them when they make sense to the mission but they really are so tiresome. Captain Ambush needs to tone this down a lot, ambushes are not a 'Go Faster' button.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Which really just means it's going to have lots of ambushes :P
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@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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The waves come when the previous wave is dead. You can leave one guy alive, stand there with a taunt aura on and go make a sandwich, and no more enemies will come.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
Defend the Henges is 15 minutes. The only reason its not bad is the enemies come in evenly spaced waves and always enter the fenced in area at the same point - so setting up to ambush them is fairly easy. Its just long and boring.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I want Dark Astoria to have multiple paths per side through the content anyway, so while I'm 'pie-in-the-skying'...|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Nobody is going to take the time to make a cutscene that nobody is going to watch. Until they're fully skippable at the press of a button (I still sit through Anti-Matter's monologue and Mommy's boob job showcase more often than not) figure out how to tell the story without one.
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How about a path for the 'get on with it already' crowd and a path for the 'what's my motivation crowd'?
This ties back to what Arcanaville said about their being more than one way that characters with different capabilities could handle the content.
1: You have the main way through the content; the repeatable path. Simpler missions consisting mostly of 'defeat this bad guy and his guards', set on larger map with lots of enemies.
For the Devs, the purpose of this path is a straightforward environment where the progress of the characters in terms of rewards is easily monitored and controlled; not a lot of fiddly bits to be buggy, exploited or abused. The rewards here are straightforward as well, so there is a clear connection between time invested and rewards gained; mostly just Mission Complete rewards.
2: You have the 'Lorehound path' as well. Short to very short missions, but: Cut scenes, gimmick fights, random elements, dialogue trees, timers, alternate objective missions, branching mission paths, Moral Choices, the works. This path is specifically engineered to be basically played through once to get the story and background info that supports the main story. Heavily atmospheric and cinematic, it rewards those willing to brave its' hellish, hoary depths with badges, temp powers and long-lasting buffs (as well as standard rewards at a lower rate due to fewer enemies). It is made up of a series of independent but interconnected 'one-off' arcs for various Contacts whose fates you determine by choices you make during various stories. Those you successfully rescue can be bought from a shop to use as (buff/debuff/healing) Helpers.
From the Dev's point of view, this is where you turn the mission writing team loose with the 'make all the players who feel that this 7-year old game is behind the times and low-tech eat thier words; make scenes that people call their friends over to the computer to see."
The idea is that most characters can progress at normal speeds down the main path, but if your build is having trouble you can trot over to a lore arc and power up, at the 'cost' of a less directly profitable mission, or 'gambling' with a mission that you can fail.
I'm seeing this as an 'everybody wins' situation.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Can enemies please stop kneeling down after I beat them? Defeating enemies via text options is lame.
I don't mind cut scenes so long as they're not overly long and somewhat entertaining. Something like the SSAs would be pretty unreasonable, too much chatting.
Actually, stupid question, what's really preventing the devs from sticking more of the lore onto talkable NPCs like Prometheus? You can go chat him up for lots of info on the trials before and after you run them. How come there aren't other lore NPCs that can info dump on you completely optionally?
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Not to mention that we have Info Booths all over Paragon that do basically nothing but show Leaderboards that I'm not sure anyone cares about. Please correct me if you care.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Actually, stupid question, what's really preventing the devs from sticking more of the lore onto talkable NPCs like Prometheus? You can go chat him up for lots of info on the trials before and after you run them. How come there aren't other lore NPCs that can info dump on you completely optionally?
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It also seems like many of the stores, trainers, and other npcs could be given info on Lore appropriate to their location, purpose and history.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Do the leader boards even work? Of the... I think 3 times I've ever checked them they never listed any info. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Not to mention that we have Info Booths all over Paragon that do basically nothing but show Leaderboards that I'm not sure anyone cares about. Please correct me if you care.
It also seems like many of the stores, trainers, and other npcs could be given info on Lore appropriate to their location, purpose and history. |
But yah, that'd work. We've already got the Hazard agents (or whatever they're called. The NPCs right at the start of hazard zones that detail level, lore and NPC groups). Seems like we could just populate more of them for different purposes.
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Separate from the bugs, there's the simple fact that the NPC literally just runs away from you while you are punching them in the back of the head, without even acknowledging you're there. It would be like fighting a really strong AV with no health bar: there's absolutely no feedback at all you're doing anything: its kill him or let him escape. If you have some sort of mez that can affect the guy its a little different, but not everyone does.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Whoever decided to make an AV with Quickness one of those fleeing villains should never be allowed to write a mission again. I'm not sure if it's the mechanic itself that gets all the hate or the fact that in most cases it was used badly.
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And when you see someone literally ignore you like you're not there, it tends to be a bit belittling. And that's when you notice you have to root to shoot, but he doesn't have to do anything but skedaddle at a constant speed like someone is towing him on rollerskates.
Oh yeah, and if you have stuns, that's when the hate really flows.
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See, I think this is where the disconnect occurs. I'm one of the "lore hounds" who will read every clue, every contact interaction and, against my better judgement, every dialogue option I'm given to say. But "lore" and "gameplay complexity" aren't the same thing. Lore can be explained to me, and in many places it actually is, such as Akharist's writings or Prometheus' monologue. I appreciate having this lore because I want to know it, but I don't necessarily want my actual gameplay ruined to learn it.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
2: You have the 'Lorehound path' as well. Short to very short missions, but: Cut scenes, gimmick fights, random elements, dialogue trees, timers, alternate objective missions, branching mission paths, Moral Choices, the works. This path is specifically engineered to be basically played through once to get the story and background info that supports the main story. Heavily atmospheric and cinematic, it rewards those willing to brave its' hellish, hoary depths with badges, temp powers and long-lasting buffs (as well as standard rewards at a lower rate due to fewer enemies). It is made up of a series of independent but interconnected 'one-off' arcs for various Contacts whose fates you determine by choices you make during various stories. Those you successfully rescue can be bought from a shop to use as (buff/debuff/healing) Helpers.
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And that's what all the complexities you mention do to my gameplay - they ruin the game for me. Not in a big way, of course, not like a showstopper bug or a HORRIBLE plot point *coughoriginofpowerscough* but they do nothing but get in my way and keep me from playing the game.
Text is easy to budget. If a mission drops eleventy clues on me, that's fine. I'll read them all at the same time when I leave. I can't do that with a dialogue tree, ESPECIALLY when I'm getting ambushed mid-way through the conversation. Not all clues make sense to be read at the end of the mission, as some of them say things to the effect of "You just triggered an alarm and will be ambushed." Reading this long after I've defeated said ambush is pointless, and it just leaves me scratching my head as to why I was ambushed at the time.
First Ward really drove this home, because all the content in there expects me to pay attention to the lore at all times. And I BETTER pay attention or I won't have any idea what the Funk and Wagnalls' going on in the story or why anything is happening. Around 3/4 of the way through First Ward, I realised that I DREADED clicking on things or speaking with people because I knew - I KNEW - that as soon as I did, something would happen and I'd have to read at the speed because enemies would spawn on top of me mid-sentence.
Story and gameplay complexity are not the same thing, and a player looking for story isn't necessarily looking for cutscenes, ambushes or conversations. A player could simply be looking for facts and knowledge, not a dynamic, elaborate experience. I could, if I were so inclined, read up on this stuff from ParagonWiki, but that's just cheating. Even so, I still prefer to read up on my history in-game at my leisure than to have plot thrust upon me when I have three ambush waves on me or at times when I really want to kill stuff instead of have control yanked out of my hands and power recharge graphics screwed up on my end for the next minute.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well if the story writers can and will put atmospheric lore in the main path without making it drag on the tenth playthrough, that's cool also. But if the story writers want to go to town on stuff that would detract from simple, straightforward missioning, that should be seperate and optional.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Of course, that's what I'm saying. Take your typical, classical RPG, for instance. When you arrive in a new town, you could go ahead and speak with everyone. If it's a good RPG, everyone would have something interesting to say and a few people will have something for you to do. You COULD do this, but you don't HAVE to. You could simply go straight to the people giving you "quests" and do those. You'd probably miss on a lot of the context and have very little idea of what's going on in the larger world, but if you choose this option, chances are you either don't care anyway or already know this.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Well if the story writers can and will put atmospheric lore in the main path without making it drag on the tenth playthrough, that's cool also. But if the story writers want to go to town on stuff that would detract from simple, straightforward missioning, that should be seperate and optional.
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This, to me, is good design. Give the player the freedom to immerse himself in as much or as little story as he wants. To my eyes, everybody wins. Story writers aren't constrained by the need for brevity as people will have chose to devote time and attention to the read and players don't need to "click next" without reading like like illiterate deathmongers. Everybody wins.
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Again, though, that's still separate from complexity of mission design. And I really don't want to disparage your preferences. I respect that that's simply what you like, and just have to disagree on basis of preference. I like simpler games that I don't have to think about ALL the time, so that I can get in a zone. I don't think that's something that can be reasoned around.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No problem; I'm just saying there is a place for complexity, it just shouldn't be in your way 
I don't want the solo content to necessarily lack it completely.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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The thing is, because this content must be repeated, it will get in the way. No matter where you put it, it will get in the way. Don't kid yourself, they won't put it in some out of the way place where only die-hard lorehounds ever have to look at it. If they make it, it'll be for everyone.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
No problem; I'm just saying there is a place for complexity, it just shouldn't be in your way
I don't want the solo content to necessarily lack it completely. |
There is also the undeniable fact that complex content takes up more resources than simpler content. The fancier it is, the less there will be of it.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
It doesn't have to be hidden, it just should be seperate; an alternate string of Contacts that you aren't specifically sent to by a zone popup or the like.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I thought this was coming out with the new issue,but I saw nothing. Does anyone have any infor on this?
New Issue isn't out yet; the recent Special Update was "just" a general 'we love you, here is more cool stuff' update.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I don't envy the Devs' their task. I'm a lore junky, I love lore heavy missions but if I'm to repeat them, that lore needs to be delivered in a way I can skip past when I'm running through it again and again and again (it's Incarnate, I'm expecting having to farm it heavily).
On the other hand, I hope all the lore doesn't end up being spouted by another giant Smurf with a bad attitude. I swear I can only read a couple of pages of his dialogue before wanting to punch him in the mouth.
Yeah, I know, I'm a hard customer to please. 
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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The Dark Astoria revamp and other goodies will be coming with Issue 22, the recent stuff just added was 21.5, which is sort of a special half update to go with all the stuff they added in Issue 21.
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Originally Posted by Windwalker
I thought this was coming out with the new issue,but I saw nothing. Does anyone have any infor on this?
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So do we know if the new Dark Astoria will actually provide meaningful Incarnate progress for solo/duo/trio players like myself? Or will it be "Well, you can go in to the wonderful new zone solo, solo, but you really can't accomplish much in the way of Incarnate progress without a team" ?
As far as Incarnate goes, after that "You can solo it now, by teaming!" B.S. we got, I'm not feeling optimistic. But I love the game and I'm hoping for a reason to come back. And Grind A Teeny Bit Faster won't be it.
(One thing I am expecting should they improve solo/small team incarnate progress will be the standard and regular shrieks of "YOU WANTS IT ALL FOR FREE! MMO IS FOR MULTI-PLAYER! YOU GO PLAY SKYRIM! YOU RUIN MY GAME BY WHINING AND NOT PLAYING WHAT I LIKE!" from those people outraged and frightened that someone with different tastes can enjoy the game again.)
I22 is still in beta, but DA gives faster progress than the current non-Trial path - although it's still nowhere near the progress speed of running the Trials.
There are 5 story arcs in DA, and 2 repeatable contacts - the story arcs can also be run from Ouroboros, and you'll need to run them several times each to get everything you want, so you should be prepared from some "grind".
There's also a new Incanrate Trial that's the big finale for the DA storyline, but you can skip it and treat the final story arc as the end if you like, as it also has a big finale.
@Golden Girl
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The rates and everything still need to be tweaked, but that's why it is in beta atm, to get meaningful feedback on how fast everything is.
Currently all mobs in DA drop iXP, and missions will reward iXP upon completion. All mobs have a chance of dropping incarnate threads and most (if not all) of the story arcs in DA have a component drop upon completion.
So it might not be fast, trials will always be faster, but yeah, you'll be able to solo and build up your incarnate via DA.
Golden Girl, Agent White, thanks a bunch for the information! I don't expect it to be fast as the Trials and such, just didn't want a grind which was merely slightly less unacceptable. I'll have to keep an eye out for when they release i22 then. Be nice to bust out my superheroes again.
The stop 30 firbolg is easy enough if you run it solo at base settings and instead of waiting for the firbolg to come running to the exit, you just start killing them all in a circle radiating out from the portal in the far corner. Some will escape but if you can kill them fast enough you will generally clear the map before you fail (thats why you don't want to run it at anything higher than +0/x1 - the more mobs on the map, the longer it will take you to clear). Mind you, that just means its an obnoxiously large kill all and is one of the few missions I auto-complete on all my characters, where I am willing to do the defend the hedge.
And ya, just a very obnoxious kill all. Again, it really lends itself to AoE or just folks that can kill speedily. I will never do it again XP
Luckily, I'm happy to say the Devs have shown they're better than those old tricks (Tho, I wish they'd just revamp them >>) but still I don't see Dark Astoria resembling those missions.
Which really just means it's going to have lots of ambushes :P