What are you expecting for a solo Incarnate path?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-17 20:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
For instance, there could be a 'pool' of NPCs that you rescue in various missions, which then unlocks them to be 'bought' as temp powers.
These npcs might have little or no attack ability, but decent support powers like buffs, debuffs, healing, etc.
Bonus points if you can converse with them to learn lore and alter their dialogue 'attitude' toward you.
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Yup! Talk to Astral Christy in Ouroboros, the option is under 'Voucher Purchases'. It also lets you turn Astrals into threads or shards, the only way to transfer incarnate salvage of any kind to another character currently. Though the rates aren't that great (A single astral merit is only worth a single shard or 4 threads. Horrible conversion rate) But it is a way to let just one character be more of a 'work horse' so you don't have to repeat *everything* for every character.
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Originally Posted by Myddie
I didn't know this at all. I don't even recall being given the option to get an Astral merit the 2 times I've run the SSA arc on my 50. Most likely, I didn't even realize what they were and probably took the hero merits. =/
If I ever run the SSA again, I'll be sure to look more closely, thanks.  |
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No, UG he was right. I was suggesting that they make challenges scale by having the 8-man version have multiple gimmicks, and the 1-man version only, say, 1 gimmick.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I could be wrong, but I think the reference to scaling was actually to the specific mechanism in the iTrials that makes things like AVs harder for bigger leagues and easier for smaller ones, which is achieved by scaling their resistances and so forth up and down. I don't want to speak for Eve, but I don't think gimmicks (like nanite patches or Nova Fists) that scaled would be big on their list of hoped for features.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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hopefully I'm not breaking any rules when I say: WoW does it all the time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That is really, really hard to do. Or rather, its really really hard to do correctly.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Yes, you are breaking rules when you say that. It's okay to say "a popular fantasy MMO" or the like, I beleive.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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No, they're really not necessary. Now a gimmick that is designed to be harder to deal with the more people you have on your team, that I would like to see....as long as it's not an "everybody scatter, sucks to be melee" effect. I'm sick of those.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I could be wrong, but I think the reference to scaling was actually to the specific mechanism in the iTrials that makes things like AVs harder for bigger leagues and easier for smaller ones, which is achieved by scaling their resistances and so forth up and down. I don't want to speak for Eve, but I don't think gimmicks (like nanite patches or Nova Fists) that scaled would be big on their list of hoped for features.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Another choice would be to time gate certain rewards.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In effect, rather than scaling the critters with gimmicks, you leave them at full strength and let the players scale themselves upward with gimmicks instead. Temp powers, special buffs, ultimate inspirations, there are lots of ways to allow players to temporarily build up enough power to take on a specific task solo.
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| That takes a lot of load off of the game engine to try to scale content upward for teams. Instead it only has to scale content upward in simple ways, and the players scale themselves upward in more complex and optional ways, and the difficulty ramp meets in the middle. |
Of course, this entirely depends on if they want this content to be steamrollable or not.
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The problem is not the ability of steamrolling the content, it's the mentality.
When people run into content they cannot steamroll for whatever reason, they tend to call whatever prevents the steamrolling a gimmick and get it nerfed or just avoid that content. Not that I necessarily blame them, but it does limit one's own potential enjoyment.
But it's all just a matter of realizing that once you start in on Incarnates, you are actually playing CoX2 (Praetoria being CoX 1.5).
In any case I thought Nukes and Shivans were already officially sanctioned?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Yeah... I don't really see that being sustainable as a design process, completely ignoring whether they could pull it off at all. I mean, they've design four Incarnate Trials, and they're already re-using gimmicks.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
No, UG he was right. I was suggesting that they make challenges scale by having the 8-man version have multiple gimmicks, and the 1-man version only, say, 1 gimmick.
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Blue
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I really hope the devs remember to put an Astral and Empyrean vendor in DA so we don't have to break crossfaction teams.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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great idea!
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
I really hope the devs remember to put an Astral and Empyrean vendor in DA so we don't have to break crossfaction teams.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I duoed the third hero Sig arc yesterday, we quite liked the 'activate the consoles to fire missiles at the Flyer' bit. It was an interesting new way of fighting a bad guy. More of stuff like that, please.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
No, the Avatar is a stats/awareness hybrid fight. You must have the stats, but even with the stats you can fail if people don't pay attention to the other indicators.
If they make missions with fights that are situational awareness ONLY, or with Very minor stat requirements (that can be made up with Inspirations, or even some kind of buff that you receive unless you have a certain number of +levels perhaps), it will solve this problem. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I thought EBs were supposed to give solo toons a bit of a fight. And inspiration use isn't like something only reserved for Sunday best, is it? Your experience sounds perfectly normal, to me. Are you implying that EBs should be easy?|
Originally Posted by Myddie
This is what worries me, to be honest. My scrapper is only partially IO'd out. I had left the game before I finished and now don't even remember where I was going with the build now and she feels a bit broken and taking more damage and missing more than I remember.
Honoree wiped the floor with her several times in the Ramiel arc until I just said Screw It and popped a bunch of purples and oranges and straight out dps'd him down. Even then, it was touch and go. And he was only EB level. =/ |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I wish they'd employ you, Arcanaville. This sounds perfect. It made me think of Safeguard missions. I'd be all over that style of approach, if the side mission equivalent was there to provide buffs or whatnot for a fight with an EB wandering around outside (or in a building or whatever).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
NPC helpers can help to an extent, but they aren't a panacea and its different in the end game. In the standard content, helper NPCs can be very powerful because they are used sparingly. They can practically solo the content themselves, and that's fine because in the standard content that's not a big deal. But in the incarnate solo path, if the player isn't doing most or all of the heavy lifting, its a meaningless trajectory.
The only way I can see making a meaningfully interesting (in terms of difficulty) solo path that is actually soloable is to make every mission have a quick and hard path, and a slow and easy path, and let the player decide how steeply uphill they wish to go. Sort of like farming for EoEs, you could make the incarnate solo path something where its extremely difficult, but there are ways to spend time gathering resources that will make it easier. If that gathering must be done by the soloer themselves and the work cannot in any way be transferred, everyone could solo at the pace they are capable of soloing at: more powerful characters quicker, less powerful characters slower. And separate from raw power, if a mission requires something you don't have, there should be ways to earn it with side tasks. In effect, rather than scaling the critters with gimmicks, you leave them at full strength and let the players scale themselves upward with gimmicks instead. Temp powers, special buffs, ultimate inspirations, there are lots of ways to allow players to temporarily build up enough power to take on a specific task solo. That takes a lot of load off of the game engine to try to scale content upward for teams. Instead it only has to scale content upward in simple ways, and the players scale themselves upward in more complex and optional ways, and the difficulty ramp meets in the middle. Unlocking NPC helpers could be one way for solo players to scale themselves upward to face harder tasks, but it can't be the only way or even the primary way in most cases, because it detracts too much from the player actually accomplishing anything. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I have a feeling she is meant for bigger things. Like saving the planet from a meteor attack, or harnessing cold fission.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I wish they'd employ you, Arcanaville.
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Or figuring out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I have a feeling she is meant for bigger things. Like saving the planet from a meteor attack, or harnessing cold fission.
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Conspiracy theorists have been known to say she figured that out at the age of 2, as well as how they get the caramel in the caramilk bar, but her results are sealed until 2080.
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Originally Posted by Frostbiter
Or figuring out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop.
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Honestly, the Honoree is the hardest part of that arc and I would expect all but the strongest characters to need inspirations against him. Heck, my heavily IO'd Time/Elec Defender can solo most EBs with ease and I still had to go and get a Backup Radio temp power to get past Honoree (I love my Defender but a single target damage machine he is not).|
Originally Posted by Myddie
Honoree wiped the floor with her several times in the Ramiel arc until I just said Screw It and popped a bunch of purples and oranges and straight out dps'd him down. Even then, it was touch and go. And he was only EB level. =/
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I suspect that the solo path will have some portions with Honoree-like difficulty but I'm also hoping for more bits with Trapdoor-like difficulty, that is to say bosses who require some thought to defeat but aren't a straight up stat-fight.
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Not with our powers system it doesn't. Its a lot easier to do this in conventional MMOs where the powers balance places *extremely* narrow limits on what both individual players and teams can do.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
hopefully I'm not breaking any rules when I say: WoW does it all the time.
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Something we often forget is that by almost all other MMO's standards, we're insanely broken. Insanely broken just happens to work surprisingly well for the genre of superheroics (and supervillainy) but you put our powers into WoW, and we'd be blasting through their content like their highest raids were tip missions.
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I'm with Adeon on this. I wouldn't get too worried based on this one experience, Myddie. Honoree completely humbled my Illusion/Storm controller. It was so unexpected I actually found it funny. I finally asked a friend to pop in with her tank and once she got his attention off me we dropped him like a hot rock. But that was an experience I had not had on that character, literally, since before he got his phantoms.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
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I suspect that the solo path will have some portions with Honoree-like difficulty but I'm also hoping for more bits with Trapdoor-like difficulty, that is to say bosses who require some thought to defeat but aren't a straight up stat-fight. |
And just to get us back on topic, I'll add that I'm very excited to see what the new Dark Astoria content will be like. What they've told us about so far is already more content than I expected for the initial roll-out of the solo/small team path. And I expect the zone itself to be atmospheric and visually compelling, based on the images I've seen, and based on their last new zone, First Ward. I have no expectations yet regarding how the missions will play or how slow the path will actually be; will just have to wait and see it in action.
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And this is pretty much why I can't play conventional MMOs. I need a sense that I, myself, am more awesome than my opponents. City gives me this. Most conventional games can have me lose to Random Mook 3918732.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not with our powers system it doesn't. Its a lot easier to do this in conventional MMOs where the powers balance places *extremely* narrow limits on what both individual players and teams can do.
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In a one on one.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I've always said that if I wanted to play "those other mmos" I'd play them, whenever folks bring up traditional mmo play or other mmo games over here.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
And this is pretty much why I can't play conventional MMOs. I need a sense that I, myself, am more awesome than my opponents. City gives me this. Most conventional games can have me lose to Random Mook 3918732.
In a one on one. |
What you just stated is reason 1 out of 21312232132411 why I don't play those other games.
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@#&*! Honoree and his @#&*! S/L resists!|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Honestly, the Honoree is the hardest part of that arc and I would expect all but the strongest characters to need inspirations against him. Heck, my heavily IO'd Time/Elec Defender can solo most EBs with ease and I still had to go and get a Backup Radio temp power to get past Honoree (I love my Defender but a single target damage machine he is not).
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(No, seriously. Enough with the jacked-up S/L resistance on everything.)
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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I had issues with the Honoree mission. As a tank solo'ing it was not a problem but Duo'ing it was much harder. This was due to the fact that when I did that mission the 4 portal where all fully formed and running before I got there. Even once I knew what was coming up on repeat runs, edging up to the room, peering round the corner showed the portals running. This meant the spawns started above the aggro cap (actually well above 2xaggro cap) and I could never keep them from my team mate.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Trapdoor and the honoree mission was the first foray into something that was a little bit more challenging than standard COH.
The reviews on that were very mixed. |
Avoiding problems like that will be quite important from my point of view.
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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On my en/en Blaster, I found them all running already too, but I could snipe each of the portals in turn, one-shotting them each time with BU, and then hide round the corner and deal with the crowd of Rikti that ran over to me (and the subsequent rear-ambush that spawns as well - people shouldn't forget these) fairly easily. The fight with the Honoree went by quite quickly for me.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
I had issues with the Honoree mission. As a tank solo'ing it was not a problem but Duo'ing it was much harder. This was due to the fact that when I did that mission the 4 portal where all fully formed and running before I got there. Even once I knew what was coming up on repeat runs, edging up to the room, peering round the corner showed the portals running. This meant the spawns started above the aggro cap (actually well above 2xaggro cap) and I could never keep them from my team mate.
Avoiding problems like that will be quite important from my point of view. |
Without a snipe, I imagine it would be a totally different story.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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If I ever run the SSA again, I'll be sure to look more closely, thanks.