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Ow! Sorry Uncle! (I think that's the reference)
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Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
*twacks KitsuneNinetails* Oooonnee Mooore thing! Killing people because of Genetics is wrong!
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First, did I miss a memo? Last I heard, sexual preference was supposed to be genetic.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Last I knew no sexual preference gene exists (nor intelligence gene or a violence gene) and practically given up on except by a few.
So that example just seems bad. As for taking away all evil, didn't they try that in Gattaca, and those who had it taken a way still ended up killing someone (at least the one killer in the movie). Besides that, talk about taking away free will. Not to mention, who would decide what exactly is evil? Is killing an animal to eat it evil? According to some it is! As for what you say "I felt like it" there goes any sort of after hours night life. Not to mention some great marriages that likely started off with some less than noble intentions (on either side). "We have 2.5 children because this is what is expected of us." *nod nod...go on mediorce way*. In the end, I'd rather protect peoples rights to be jerks than to have it taken away. |
Haven't seen Gattaca, which is a shame because *sigh* Uma... is in it.
In this scenario, 'evil' is defined by your society, whatever that may be, from your nuclear family up to the world community.
As for the night life and great marriages, see eggs and omelets.
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Won't that have a lot of conflicting views? I mean I live in a town where Underage drinking isn't exactly frowned upon, while the larger Society I live in finds that Evil. Which is right?|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
In this scenario, 'evil' is defined by your society, whatever that may be, from your nuclear family up to the world community.
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I'm a member of an awful lot of societies and I don't think a single one shares all the views of the others.
Should we abolish evil? Of course!
I'm the one that's going to decide whats evil right?
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There are contrary views on this, and frankly it is close enough to a modern political argument to risk mod entry. I'd leave it be.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
First, did I miss a memo? Last I heard, sexual preference was supposed to be genetic...
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Haven't seen Gattaca, which is a shame because *sigh* Uma... is in it..
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
In this scenario, 'evil' is defined by your society, whatever that may be, from your nuclear family up to the world community...
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
As for the night life and great marriages, see eggs and omelets.
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Oh, so its made up then?|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
So yes, all the 'other evil things' on that list are considered forms of sociopathy and psychopathy for this discussion.
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Fine. Then the answers is obviously yes. And there can be no objections, because anything it cured would be. by definition of this discussion, evil. And anything it didn't cure would be 'non-evil'. To make double sure, the people who start this whole thing would do it to themselves first. That way, if doing it to everyone else was evil, then they wouldn't want to do it. If they still wanted to do it, it is impossible for it to be evil.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Interesting argument, but the most interesting thing about evil, is that sometimes it inspires others to do good to combat it.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
...if it were discovered to be genetic?
Full disclosure: as a Christian, I don't beleive evil is genetic or that human agency can abolish it without divine intervention; this is purely a "what if scenario" that should be divorced from spirituality. Some/many/all(?) psychological conditions have a chemical and possibly genetic origin, with others being a result of environmental conditions. This ranges from destructive urges such as suicidal depression to social variance such as sexuality. It can be extrapolated then, that sociopathy (defined here as an emotional disdain for society that renders one incapable of feeling like they "ought to" obey the rules) and psychopathy (defined here as an inability to comprehend society in a way that allows one to comprehend what the rules actually are) may be the result of genetic flaws in an individual. Almost literally, "brain wired differently". If a retrovirus were developed that could isolate and remove these genetic disorders, and repair them if they developed from environmental conditions, should it be used? For this discussion, let's ignore tangents such as the possibility of nightmare runaway mutations and the like, and concentrate on the main issues: - Every human develops a conscience that they cannot simply ignore: they can only overcome it with will/logic. You can ignore the needs of society, but your reason will never be "I felt like it". - Potentially 'benevolent' social/mental disorders are also abolished, such as autistic savants, or some cases of ADD or ADHD (so no mad scientists consumed by a single theory, etc) - Morality and Ethics are entirely determined over time by the needs of society and community. It is almost impossible to avoid wanting to pitch in and help make things better. What 'better' means is determined, recursively, by society itself. |
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Nope. Just the press/media only based on research into it, none of which has been proven and those thought to show it being disproven. So, no evidence of such a thing (which doesn't mean it can't one day be proven to be, just that as of now, all evidence has pointed to nope...which is good, because do you really want to hear "My genetic makeup finds you to be pleasing."? |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
First, did I miss a memo? Last I heard, sexual preference was supposed to be genetic.
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)I meantioned night life and great marriages in two different sentences. I didn't mean they had to be together exactly.
Just that some couples started off with "Yeah, just wanted down their pants at first." versus "It was love at first sight." 
And evil defined by my society? Ewww...no. People in my society (ie the US) can't seem to agree on anything.
"People are Omnivores!" vs "Eating meat is evil!"
And quite frankly, I don't want anyone to think my love of bacon is evil.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Quite possible.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
There are contrary views on this, and frankly it is close enough to a modern political argument to risk mod entry. I'd leave it be.
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| For the record, Gattaca (excellent movie) has nothing to do with having gotten rid of evil. |
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| By that definition: NO. Society could be wrong - and has many times throughout history. |
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| I didn't understand the original night life/marriage comment in this context, so I really don't get this one either. |
I'll just go with the up for 20 hours, havent slept yet, so it makes more sense in my head responce.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Wasn't there a World War fought in part against a regime that felt systemic genetic alterations would result in a more orderly, socially pure population? And anything that didn't meet those criteria were to be...how shall I put this politely....eliminated?
The inherent danger in this argument is that you're asking for an objective view about a subjective topic and leaning on the presumption that both will be approved and supported by some authority that would have the oversight powers to determine 'evil'.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Exactly. Slippery slope doesn't even begin to cover it.
I don't pretend to have an answer on this, except to state that I'm someone who doesn't believe morality is genetically or physically determined. However, I get the impression that in educated professions, the attitude is coming back (if, indeed, it ever went away) that everything anyone might consider "wrong" or even just "unpleasant" is just a mental disease or defect that can be treated through psychotherapy or medication. (I say "educated professions" because I see this belief from lawyers, especially criminal defense lawyers, legal aid attorneys [those who represent poor people or social causes], and legal academics, as well as from physicians of a wide variety of stripes. Obviously, it isn't a universal attitude.) More often, I see it applied in defining personality traits, such as a short temper, as mental illnesses, than in defining morality that way. This whole question may be a moot point, since those who would be most likely to be able to develop a treatment for "genetic evil" are also those least likely to accept the notion of "evil" as a valid concept, anyway.
For an interesting and nuanced discussion of whether a "defect" affects one's identity, consider Elizabeth Moon's The Speed of Dark. Particularly appropriate for this discussion is the ultimate fate of the hero's rival. (SPOILER: While the future society of this book is much like that of the real world, it appears that crime is treated as a mental illness.)
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This appears to make the assumption that logical and rational reasons are in some way not chemically/genetically derived. If you have evidence for a source of thought or emotion not genetic or chemical, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Demonstrate this evidence for it, and you're a shoo-in for the next round of Nobels.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The shot doesn't force you to do anything. If you have logical, rational reasons for avoiding people (you are in the witness protection programme, you have a communicable disease, you have to be at work early the next day) those reasons are still in place, and you can act on them as per normal.
On the other hand, if your reasons are chemically/genetically derived, you will no longer feel the same way. If someone invites you bar hopping, you won't "not want to go" by default. If you don't have a reason to stay home that you can't articulate (even something as simple as 'playing CoH is more fun than bar hopping'), you probably will want to go. |
We have ways in the real world of reducing the incidence of crime and violence. These typically are political solutions and as such are outside of the scope of this forum. Opposition to these solutions are often religious in nature and are therefore also outside of the scope of this forum.
To give you an example (for thought, not discussion, for obvious reasons), in your bar hopping example, what would your hypothetical hypodermic do to someone who was raised to believe that using alcohol was immoral?
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
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Just one note: a sociopath does not necesarely goes out on a killing spree. Many researchers put the percentage of sociopath humans between 1%-4%. Even at the lowest 1%, thats a LOT of sociopaths. |
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
Pretty much this.
And there's plenty of "evil" done by non-sociopaths too. Some by elected officials. |
Just like the starving man that robs to eat, a smart and educated sociopath that is aware of consequences will likely never go about killing other humans even if he has no symapthy for them. They are very likely to become very successfull businessmen that dont care who suffers in their path to success, though.
I bet Wallstreet, high ranking government positions and the corporate world are all full of a higher than average percentage of sociopaths.
If you think about it, being a sociopath can make you great at business since you dont have to dehumanize "the minions" or the masses to make harsh choices.
Sure, the cure should be administered to convicted felons of heinous crimes (murder, not shoplifting) and those who administer the cure should also take it. If they still feel like administering the cure to criminals after taking it, then it is not evil.
Issue 23: All your base are belong to us?
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How is this conceivably, in any way, going to stay within the board regs? Plus one, as the young persons say.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
...if it were discovered to be genetic?
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Underage drinking is not seeing as "Evil", its seeing as "Wrong". The logic behind it is that at too young of an age, you are likely to lack the responsability to set your limits. A young irresponsible kid is more likely to get drunk and then hop into a car and run every red light they see.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Won't that have a lot of conflicting views? I mean I live in a town where Underage drinking isn't exactly frowned upon, while the larger Society I live in finds that Evil. Which is right?
I'm a member of an awful lot of societies and I don't think a single one shares all the views of the others. |
It is true that you cant easily measure maturity evenly accross all ages, but thats also why the legal drinking age is high, its the "safest" margin that will cover most americans based on... some one's research... or guess.
Anyways, piont is: its not about evil, its about carelesness and potential repercussions.
On a similar grounds: drinking and driving is not evil, its just horribly irresponsible and extremely dangerous for everyone in a considerable large radius of the driver, but not evil.
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Serenity, on the other hand, does.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
For the record, Gattaca (excellent movie) has nothing to do with having gotten rid of evil.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Fine. Then the answers is obviously yes. And there can be no objections, because anything it cured would be. by definition of this discussion, evil. And anything it didn't cure would be 'non-evil'. To make double sure, the people who start this whole thing would do it to themselves first. That way, if doing it to everyone else was evil, then they wouldn't want to do it. If they still wanted to do it, it is impossible for it to be evil.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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man could i take this thread on a "to be locked dirction" about what genetic tests are currently used for.
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Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
NO! If We destroy evil, stronger evil will come to fill void!
*twacks KitsuneNinetails* Oooonnee Mooore thing! Killing people because of Genetics is wrong! |
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From my vague understanding on the topic (and endless lecture of a psychiatrist major friend of mine) every single personality trait is based of chemical balances in your brain.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Last I knew no sexual preference gene exists (nor intelligence gene or a violence gene) and practically given up on except by a few.
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Genetics have a lot ot do with these balances, and in theory, that can mean one thing is tied to the other. There would be very likely no "one gene" that defines such preferences, though. You are as likely to find a "sexuality gene" as you are to like a "chocolate over vanella" gene.
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Depends how far you take the definition of the word. But if you keep it at "lack of empathy for fellow human beings", then it gets easier. Many (not all) of the actions we consider "evil" are result of lack of empathy.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
How is this conceivably, in any way, going to stay within the board regs? Plus one, as the young persons say.
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There are problems, though, since you can train a dehumanization of others. With years of "braiwashing" you can honestly make a person believe others that dont meet certain standards (sometimes that can be "is that me?") are just not human enough to deserve your empathy.
But in theory you can attempt to minimize inherent lack of human empathy.
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It would be known beforehand (barring predjudice); 'evil' = 'antisocial' in this context. Before taking the drug, the scientists would know whether it was socially acceptable/preferable for them to administer it. Unless, of course, they themselves are psychotic...|
Originally Posted by Agent79
Sure, the cure should be administered to convicted felons of heinous crimes (murder, not shoplifting) and those who administer the cure should also take it. If they still feel like administering the cure to criminals after taking it, then it is not evil.
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One part of the question is to what degree should a society protect itself from social deviance? If to any extent, what methods should it stop at?
What could be more 'humane' than a society where social deviance (and the dangers thereof) are not an issue, because such people are simply not born in the first place?
Of course, that brings us back to the question of whether there is a such thing as 'rational evil' or 'rational antisocial behaviour'.
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I am confident that it is possible for us to have a rational, non-evil discourse.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
How is this conceivably, in any way, going to stay within the board regs? Plus one, as the young persons say.
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...
first off, There has been a strong genetic factor found in one sex becoming homosexual or heterosexual. The other sex however there has been found either none, or very little, and it has more to do with various developmental conditions that are not "genetic" but still outside of the "choice" area.
Secondly, Sociopathy occurs when a child is not handled enough while the first several months of their life. Their empathic/sympathetic development is retarded and as such do not think in terms of how things will effect others. It is a handicap and it is no more "evil" than someone who is missing an arm or needs to wear glasses. On the other hand, people characterizing sociopaths as evil are themselves evil in my opinion.
Thirdly, Psychopath is also not evil. A psychopath is someone who has a mental disease and again it's those who characterize these people evil that are evil. Especially when you know that everyone has a mental disorder/disease to some degree.
If you want to cure the world of the above get everyone into psychotherapy and educate them properly, stop having war, and stop stressing people out... and that cures pretty much all of the things that can be cured above.
As far as curing evil. Don't be daft. Evil is simply an opposing view that is contrary to our view. It's why things like the 1st amendment exist. So people can't just go around claiming others are "evil" for their beliefs and kill them, or make laws against them, or anything like that
Also, wasn't this an episode of Voyager?
So yes, all the 'other evil things' on that list are considered forms of sociopathy and psychopathy for this discussion.
EDIT: There probnably isn't much Star Trek hasn't done. And if there is, Simpsons did it.
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