Quote:
No, highschool experience provided an explanation for its necessity.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I thought highschool experience said yes to this question.
 |
Quote:
Who decides what the normal genetic standard is? We already saw what happened when a group of people decided that blond, blue-eyed, caucasians was genetically superior. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Another way of putting it might be:
Would it be correct to introduce a medical procedure that prevents people that would vary too much from a "normal" genetic standard from ever being born, in the hope of abolishing certain birth defects. |
Sure we'd like to think that we've left that garbage behind us but one look at te world without the rose colored glasses will show that we haven't.
Furthermore this probably wouldn't be an inexpensive procedure so how do you prevent the rich and powerful from using it to create a superior race and then twisting the technology to their own means by creating a submissive and maybe less inteligent worker class out of the lower and middle income populations.
Evolution demands outliers for the survival of a species, and history would demonstrate that human society has always been moved forward by people operating outside of what most would consider the normal parameters of the human species. By seeking to destroy things we don't consider normal, we ensure the stagnation of evolutionary development within our species, thereby forfeiting any technological, medicinal, or artistic wonders these creatively mutated minds might conceive, and provide an easy road for another species to eventually replace us. Such is the prediction of Darwin.
So no, I would not approve of aborting someone just because they're a little mutated. I have no right to decide what is 'normal', or even what is best. I don't believe in 'best'.
Quote:
So you think it's evil for schools to require children to be immunized so they are less likely to catch and spread diseases like Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Chickenpox, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis A, Haemophilus Influenzae, Streptococcus Pneumoniae, and Meningitis.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Calling a medical condition good or evil is a stupid way to describe it. Instead you should be asking me if there is a way to cure a disease, should we administer that cure? To which I would say yes, so long as you have consent from the patient to administer this cure. Forcibly administering procedures upon an unwilling patient is slavery, as far as I am concerned.
Slavery is evil. |
Cuz kids never consent to getting shots. They get forced to do it by their parents.
Quote:
My reasons for not wanting to go would be that I don't like crowds, gratuitous noise, or socializing with groups of strangers in general. These are reasons that I can articulate, yet they may also be linked to genetic flaws. If they are genetic, would I want to fundamentally alter who I am? There are any number of physical alterations that I might accede to, but changing my mind is a different story.
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The shot doesn't force you to do anything. If you have logical, rational reasons for avoiding people (you are in the witness protection programme, you have a communicable disease, you have to be at work early the next day) those reasons are still in place, and you can act on them as per normal.
On the other hand, if your reasons are chemically/genetically derived, you will no longer feel the same way. If someone invites you bar hopping, you won't "not want to go" by default. If you don't have a reason to stay home that you can't articulate (even something as simple as 'playing CoH is more fun than bar hopping'), you probably will want to go. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Clearly you need to be cured of that antisocial disorder in order to make you a happier, more productive citizen. Here, take this pill and lie back. You won't feel a thing, and you'll wake up with a much better outlook on life. Trust us. We're here to help.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
Maybe we should let a computer decide what would make happier, more productive citizens.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Clearly you need to be cured of that antisocial disorder in order to make you a happier, more productive citizen. Here, take this pill and lie back. You won't feel a thing, and you'll wake up with a much better outlook on life. Trust us. We're here to help.
|
Praise the Computer. The Computer is my friend.
Quote:
Okay I'm going to point this out bluntly. So it may (hell, probably will) offend you.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Current society tends to redefine what would have been considered 'evil' in a previous century as 'sociopathy' or 'psychopathy'.
|
You're playing a game where you're going out beating, shooting, burning, freezing, stabbing, slicing, exploding, zapping, tossing, and otherwise causing massive physical harm to people who do not comply with your choice of morality AS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE.
There's a little core of this stuff in all of us. Everyone.
Removing it makes us something else. Maybe better, likely worse.
If the motive is to turn everyone into bland, risk-free sheeple "for the greater good", I'll be happy to demonstrate REAL sociopathy.
Essentially something like this is a way to excuse behavior of a sort. To remove blame. It also arises from the "take a pill for that" mentality so prevalent nowadays.
Own up to the fact that we're still a savage, ignorant child-race (with nukes) and try to make yourself better the RIGHT way. THE HARD WAY.
Conscious decision to do so.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Not offended at all; this is merely a discussion of the idea. I'm not advocating anything.
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay I'm going to point this out bluntly. So it may (hell, probably will) offend you.
|
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
Parents are the Guardians of their children. As the Guardian, it is the parent's duty to provide protection for their child, and do what they feel is necessary to accomplish this goal. Are you suggesting that all children should be abandoned from the Guardian and subject to roam the world at the age when they are most vulnerable? |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So you think it's evil for schools to require children to be immunized so they are less likely to catch and spread diseases like Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Chickenpox, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis A, Haemophilus Influenzae, Streptococcus Pneumoniae, and Meningitis.
Cuz kids never consent to getting shots. They get forced to do it by their parents. |
Don't be absurd.
Quote:
So slavery is evil except when you can come up with excuses to justify that it's in the best interest of the individual enslaved in order to protect them.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Parents are the Guardians of their children. As the Guardian, it is the parent's duty to provide protection for their child, and do what they feel is necessary to accomplish this goal. Are you suggesting that all children should be abandoned from the Guardian and subject to roam the world at the age when they are most vulnerable?
Don't be absurd. |
As to absurdity. Playing devil's advocate to your statements isn't being absurd. Remember it was you that said
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Forcibly administering procedures upon an unwilling patient is slavery, as far as I am concerned.
Slavery is evil. |
In the real world there is no black and white, only shades of gray.
Abort! You are entering Mod Territory...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I hope you appreciate the irony of that statement since you were the one that brought up the topic of abortions.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Abort! You are entering Mod Territory...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Another way of putting it might be:
Would it be correct to introduce a medical procedure that prevents people that would vary too much from a "normal" genetic standard from ever being born, in the hope of abolishing certain birth defects. |
Quote:
Mostly correct, but the world is mostly shades of grey with some areas of black and white. Rescuing a child from a burning building is white while causing serious physical or emotional pain to a child is black.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
In the real world there is no black and white, only shades of gray.
|
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Quote:
That's fine in our western society, but where do we get off going into other cultures and forcing our beliefs on people that want nothing to do with us and believe differently. Seems awfully hypocritical coming from a nation whose main tenants is peoples freedom of something I agreed not to mention. Especially when we embrace the practice of performing circumcisions.|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
Mostly correct, but the world is mostly shades of grey with some areas of black and white. Rescuing a child from a burning building is white while causing serious physical or emotional pain to a child is black.
|
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Again playing devil's advocate here just for clarification.
Quote:
Was going to use darker examples for black, but decided against using them. There are actions in every culture that will be considered as good or evil. Although some actions are considered evil in our language, but fall under survival of the tribe.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
That's fine in our western society, but where do we get off going into other cultures and forcing our beliefs on people that want nothing to do with us and believe differently. Seems awfully hypocritical coming from a nation whose main tenants is peoples freedom of something I agreed not to mention. Especially when we embrace the practice of performing circumcisions.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Again playing devil's advocate here just for clarification. |
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
The point of my hypothetical situation being:
In the absence of a blanket definition of good or evil, attacking the problems of sociopathy and psychopathy (as herein defined) as if they were medical issues. Which I suppose they are, whether or not good or evil exists in an objectively definable form.
The retrovirus removes any medically derived antisocial tendencies. As a result, your moral compass becomes your logic, modified by your society. If your society beleives that gingers are evil, you probably start off thinking that also; it would be up to your logic and will to act counter to that, should you so desire.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The point of my hypothetical situation being:
In the absence of a blanket definition of good or evil, attacking the problems of sociopathy and psychopathy (as herein defined) as if they were medical issues. Which I suppose they are, whether or not good or evil exists in an objectively definable form. The retrovirus removes any medically derived antisocial tendencies. As a result, your moral compass becomes your logic, modified by your society. If your society beleives that gingers are evil, you probably start off thinking that also; it would be up to your logic and will to act counter to that, should you so desire. |
Here is what people are concerned about. They don't know how much of their own behavior is controlled by genetics. Thus they are unwilling to support a retrovirus that may alter their personality in ways they can't imagine.
We are also concerned about who watches the people making the decisions on what is a defect that needs to be changed, and where does it stop? A far greater evil can be perpetrated from the noblest of intentions.
The decision about what's good or evil varies with each countries outlook and also changes over time and with religion or lack thereof. Being able to determine the genes that cause certain behavior tendencies is only half of the question. What behavior is good or evil will still be made by the region's society and would change with time and situations. If it were something that was actually flawed instead of just being different, then it might be ok. But genetic altering based on society opinion wouldn't be a good idea because it would tamper with evolution. Some of societies greatest achievements were made by people with what would be considered antisocial behavior. Would ADHD be considered good or evil?
Quote:
This; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Or even worse, what if a morally neutral or "evil" person uses this technology? Imagine people purposefully made into sheeple.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
We are also concerned about who watches the people making the decisions on what is a defect that needs to be changed, and where does it stop? A far greater evil can be perpetrated from the noblest of intentions.
|
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
Quote:
One of the symptoms of ADHD is an inability to restrain emotional responses to appropriate levels, so for the purposes of this discussion, let's call that aspect of ADHD an intermittent sociopathic disorder.|
Originally Posted by Beltor
Would ADHD be considered good or evil?
|
In my mind, the retrovirus works like this: when you consider an antisocial act, you should trigger a chemical reponse in your brain that causes an emotional aversion proportionate to what society has taught you.
For example, an experimental scientist starts poking you repeatedly in the ribs with a finger. You think, "If I beat him unconscious, he'll stop that." You then suffer an appropriate level of aversion: fear, shame, etc.
If you are from a stereotypically British society, this aversion might be so strong, you will ignore several pokes before it becomes appropriate to ask why you are being poked.
If you are from an equally stereotypical prison, the aversion is probably so weak that you scarcely notice it, because beating a person down for that is appropriate or even required in your culture.
A sociopathic person's chemical generators and/or receptors (in this scenario) are damaged, so the aversion feeling is never generated or felt. They may choose not to beat you down for logical reasons, or seek revenge in some more subtle matter, but they certainly feel no aversion to the inappropriate response.
A psychopathic person's pattern recognizers are broken. They don't trigger an aversion response because they do not recognize that beating you down is in fact inappropriate.
The imaginary retrovirus repairs the generators, receptors and recognizers, so that the subject feels the normal degree of emotional aversion.
In this case, the ADHD sufferer may still want to beat you down, but the ADHD does not prevent them from feeling an aversion to doing so. If they do beat you down, you can rest assured it is a conscious decision and not a reflex. If that makes you feel any better...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
Actually one of the things I was thinking was if we actually succeed at developing genetic manipulation on the level the OP is talking about how long would it be before the Japanese started selling real live Cat-Girls as pet/playmates. Genetically bred to be obedient, submissive, low intelligence, and an overclocked libido. And since they aren't human they wouldn't have human rights.|
Originally Posted by ebon3
This; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Or even worse, what if a morally neutral or "evil" person uses this technology? Imagine people purposefully made into sheeple.
|
Or take a page out of Heinlein's book Friday, where AP's (Artificial People) are second class citizens that can be bought and sold, but have no rights because they weren't born of a human mother.
Another example of that would be the show Space Above and Beyond where Tanks (test tube babies) were mass produced and treated as less than human.
Genetics could allow us to rise so very high, yet at the same time we could fall to our worst levels imaginable.
Quote:
No takers, huh?|
Originally Posted by Jagged
Should we abolish evil? Of course!
I'm the one that's going to decide whats evil right? |
Would it help if I said I am a giant impassionate robot from space?
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Isn't this just another example of man's dominion on the world around him? Another example of of humanity interfering in something that they probably should not be messing with?
What gives us the right to decide such things in the moral sense and through genetics? Who makes the decisions? Politicians? Ha I do not think so, religious leaders big NO there, scientists? How about none of the above, as a species we are destructive, we are also immature and meddling in things such as genetics to "brainwash" certain people into a certain code is monstrous.
While I hate the current judicial system because frankly it is impotent and useless, I believe that man forcing his opinions/ideals/philosophies on others is a greater evil, a pedophile in his/her mind believes they are doing something right because to them it fulfills a need/love but, in my opinion and alot of others it is evil.
While I believe that there are somethings that need to be eradicated ie; pedophiles, mass murderers, serial killers, and a slew of other but my opinions would most certainly get this thread locked.
Hence it falls down to 2 things what right do we have as a society/species to make such decisions, and we will never be able to define such things because of opinions/beliefs/etc.
If I was religious I would say we should not be trying to act like god.
Would it be correct to introduce a medical procedure that prevents people that would vary too much from a "normal" genetic standard from ever being born, in the hope of abolishing certain birth defects.
(Short answer: no.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City