Roman Costume Pieces for sale
This is an excellent idea and I fully support it. In fact, I entirely cannot understand why anyone would be against it. Those people must hate the fact that there are people out there with different opinions and playstyles, and they must hate freedom of choice!
Or something like that. I mean seriously, those people should get over themselves. Some people want to spend their tickets on costume bits. Those people should be able to do so. If you don't like it, you don't have to look at them doing it. |
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Quite frankly I've never been a fan of per character costume unlocks. The Roman gear in particular I feel requires a global unlock. I don't mind shelling out a few PP for it.
----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059
And this is set in stone, forever and ever until the end of time? And is this just for the Roman costume bits, or for all unlockable costume bits in the game? What dev told you this? Or is this just your opinion?
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Your slippery slope argument is fallacious. Just because people want to be able to buy costume parts that were only attainable before by unlocking them, that doesn't mean that will lead to us being able to buy an instant level-up to 50 with every Incarnate slot opened up, or whatever scare tactic you were trying to use there, lol. |
An analogy is not resorting to a slippery slope. If I had said, "If the devs give in on this, next people will be asking for PvP IOs to be sold." That's a slippery slope argument.
Speak for yourself, dear. And let me speak for myself: As someone who has unlocked a great deal of content in this game, I am still all for letting all costume bits be attainable via game points! I don't think it diminishes the rewards at all. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Again, that's nonsense. The Roman pieces are an in-game reward for PLAYING THE GAME! Specifically the ITF. You want that reward, you do the ITF. You don't do the ITF, you don't get the reward. Whether that reward be merits, or a pretty shield, it's still an in-game reward for completing a challenge.
Most badges do nothing in combat either, so should we start selling Empath? Or Advisor? Of course, not. Those badges are earned achievements in the game. Many people chase badges just because they are there. Likewise some people chase costumes or Inventions or Incarnates. All rewards that are valuable to someone. All earned through GAME PLAY. The rewards are used in playing the game. Whether that be doing a TF, trying to win a costume contest, or just cybering with the hot catgirl (who may be a dude!) Achievements lose all meaning if they can be bought. It's that simple. Some costume unlocks are achievements that you must earn. Allow folks to bypass that, and you have removed all purpose for having them be a reward in the first place. |
Sorry, but it's the opinion of a lot of people that having to grind levels and TFs and badges for costume points is boring and not fun. Their opinion is just as valid as yours. You lose NOTHING when people like us get to pay a little extra to skip the part we find un-fun. I'm sorry that obviously give you such issues.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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So you're annoyed that, lessee, Capes, Auras and VG equipment are all available in the store then? Setting a tri-part precedent for this to happen?
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Sorry, but it's the opinion of a lot of people that having to grind levels and TFs and badges for costume points is boring and not fun. Their opinion is just as valid as yours. |
You lose NOTHING when people like us get to pay a little extra to skip the part we find un-fun. I'm sorry that obviously give you such issues. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Personally, I say toss them in the store
The objective reason for not doing so, however, is that the costume bits are a reward for doing the ITF - much as the Incarnate armor is a reward for doing the Incarnate trials. That's not a universally popular rationale, but it is the reasoning behind it.
Where I run into a problem is when an entire "concept" for a costume is gated like that. If there were a more "plain" version of the roman costumes available pre-ITF, and a "fancier" version gated, then I wouldn't have a problem. But that togas, the roman chest pieces, etc. as a category are un-accessible upon character creation is annoying.
In the case of the Ascended armor, it's really annoying, as by the time a character of mine hits Fifty, their look is firmly placed in my mind - and nothing remotely resembling a "plain" version of the Ascended armor exists. So while I like the look, I don't much use it, which is a shame.
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Fighting crime on Champion since 2004
I agree. All the character-specific in-game costume and weapon unlocks should become account-wide store-bought costume pieces. This includes Witch's hat, Roman set, Rularuu weapons, Astral/Empyrean pieces, etc...
Before any player or Dev can object, let it be know the precedent has been set: The Vanguard set is in the Store. The level 20 capes and level 30 auras are in the Store. These were in-game locked by level and content, but are now purchasable account-wide. Put 'em all in there, please. |
For those who don't want to spend the money or who enjoy the activities, then luckily, they're available in game.
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No, of course not. You have every right to suggest it should be changed. I simply disagree and don't believe it should change.
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No slippery slope. Techbot's argument was that costumes can be purchased with RL cash because they have no affect on combat (what he calls gameplay). Well, neither do badges but no one reasonably suggest they should be sold. An analogy is not resorting to a slippery slope. If I had said, "If the devs give in on this, next people will be asking for PvP IOs to be sold." That's a slippery slope argument. |
Aside from the ridiculous notion that selling all the game has to offer on the new market is somehow "bad", just how is what someone else does in this game going to hurt you at all? Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game? Will they be perpetually kill-stealing from you if they do this? Will they be pulling Giant Monsters and Arch-Villains to your low level characters all the time? Will they sneak into your house at night and replace the game client with Hello Kitty Adventures? Please give me a better reason for not liking this idea other than "I don't like it", if you're going to continue on with such foolishness.
I don't know about you, but I don't go sticking my nose into other peoples' business. If they want to use tickets to buy a costume set so they can use it at level one, then good for them! The ITF is still there. I can still unlock the Roman costume bits by playing it, if I want to do that. Who cares if someone else got it some other way?
You're entitled to your opinion, but it is not an opinion that when you allow an achievement to be circumvented it is no longer an achievement. Your opinion boils down to the fact that you don't believe that this particular achievement is worth maintaining. That's a reasonable opinion, but it doesn't invalidate the factual statement I made. And it's not an equivalent statement. |
In the meantime, I will continue to give your opinion on the subject the kind of response I feel it duly deserves. Thank you!
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Meh, Coyote argues far better than I do.
Me, I just get urges to turn all you fleshlings into refined oil-grease *shrug*
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Aside from the ridiculous notion that selling all the game has to offer on the new market is somehow "bad", just how is what someone else does in this game going to hurt you at all?
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I *get* not liking "having" to unlock something each time. Which is why, earlier, I mentioned having two versions of the costume pieces - one in the store, and one (fancier) one to unlock, which I feel is a good middle ground. Those that don't want to deal with it can still buy the pieces and get their "concept" done from level 1, those that do - well, may still decide to buy the pieces, then earn the fancier stuff later in the character's life.
It broadens the appeal of the game to do so. Those that want it NAO can have it - without taking the fun (whether you think it is or not) of earning it away from the "Achiever" types who look forward to that sort of thing as a sort of accomplishment.
Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game? |
Do you care that people used to be able to go into RV, get confused, and nuke people under the Atlas statue with no fear of retaliation?
Do you care that, via monkey/comm officer/etc farms, people were being rushed to 50 in... what, an hour?
Do you care that a Kheldian was able to one-shot Hamidon?
Do you care that people could just TP teammates and drop them off a building into mobs without warning or any option of refusal on the victim's part?
Do you care that people could be TP'd into guard towers and left there with no means of exit without assistance?
If you answered "Yes" to any of the above, you care what others do in this game. You'll also note that the above are no longer possible (well, one is, but the player has to turn the warning off) because the *devs* cared about what was good for the game as well.
Want a non-exploit example? OK. Do you care that the broadcast BS on Freedom is a reason people don't play there, especially now that you *can't* start somewhere other than Atlas heroside?
Please give me a better reason for not liking this idea other than "I don't like it", if you're going to continue on with such foolishness. |
Well, I'm certainly glad I have you around to tell me what is and what is not an opinion around here. |
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Do you care that a Kheldian was able to one-shot Hamidon? ... |
Back on topic, whilst "I don't like it." is a valid argument, it's not a compelling one. I'm not particularly convinced of the "Achievement" argument either. Players, and people in general, have two valuable resources which they try to spend carefully; Time and money. As it stands now, to unlock the Roman gear (or any other gated costume parts) requires time. Time to grind to 35, run the Midnighter missions and finally the ITF. Should the gear be available in the store then players have the option of saving time and spending money. Either way they'll be spending one of their valuable resources.
That being said however, the idea of having a generic Roman set in the store while keeping the Cimeroran set ITF gated is a decent compromise which I have no problem with.
----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059
Because some player actions are bad, affecting others play and/or the health of the game.
Do you care that people used to be able to go into RV, get confused, and nuke people under the Atlas statue with no fear of retaliation? Do you care that, via monkey/comm officer/etc farms, people were being rushed to 50 in... what, an hour? Do you care that a Kheldian was able to one-shot Hamidon? Do you care that people could just TP teammates and drop them off a building into mobs without warning or any option of refusal on the victim's part? Do you care that people could be TP'd into guard towers and left there with no means of exit without assistance? If you answered "Yes" to any of the above, you care what others do in this game. You'll also note that the above are no longer possible (well, one is, but the player has to turn the warning off) because the *devs* cared about what was good for the game as well. Want a non-exploit example? OK. Do you care that the broadcast BS on Freedom is a reason people don't play there, especially now that you *can't* start somewhere other than Atlas heroside? "I don't like it" is perfectly valid. |
Again, giving people who WANT to pay for instant access to certain costume parts is not going to bring the game crashing to it's knees. Because it's already happened. Capes and Auras are already paid for Global Unlocks in the store.
And you know what? I've STILL seen people running cape and aura missions in game, recently too. There are still people that go 'Meh, I'll just get it in game when I can be bothered' and ignore the store option.
Now, were we arguing 'Paying your way to 50' then, yes, I'd be joining in slapping that down as a patently stupid idea. That WOULD effect gameplay and the player-base as a whole.
This, however, is not even on the same scale. Costume pieces have NO effect on gameplay. None. Nada. Zilch. And while some people consider them a reward, other people, myself included, see that as an incovenience. WE would like the OPTION to pay for that inconvenience to be removed. This, in no way, shape or form, has ANY effect on people that do not want to pay/aren't fussed about having it now. They can still run it the way they want to, and those that would rather avoid grind and annoyance can do so.
Again, there is precedent. And look, the game world hasn't ended. Imagine that.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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I have no problem with you disagreeing. But I find your reasons flawed, and your offered reasoning a bit disingenuous.
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Actually, yes it was. You tried to use scare tactics ("...so should we start selling Empath? Or Advisor?"), to imply that once the devs start down this path of selling goodies on the new market that were once only available by doing certain content within the game, then sooner or later they will start doing that with everything in the game. |
Aside from the ridiculous notion that selling all the game has to offer on the new market is somehow "bad", just how is what someone else does in this game going to hurt you at all? Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game? Will they be perpetually kill-stealing from you if they do this? Will they be pulling Giant Monsters and Arch-Villains to your low level characters all the time? Will they sneak into your house at night and replace the game client with Hello Kitty Adventures? Please give me a better reason for not liking this idea other than "I don't like it", if you're going to continue on with such foolishness. |
On a more concrete basis, some people do the ITF for the merits, some do it for badges, some do it for costume pieces. If people can just buy one of the rewards then that's some non-zero number of people who will no longer wish to run the content. If that ever affects my or anyone else's recruiting efforts for an ITF, then it affects me.
This is the fallacy of your argument. This is a persistent online game. Player actions affect each other. I know for a fact that some people no longer see much need to run the RWZ raid because they have all the costume pieces. That makes it that much harder to earn those pieces.
I don't know about you, but I don't go sticking my nose into other peoples' business. If they want to use tickets to buy a costume set so they can use it at level one, then good for them! The ITF is still there. I can still unlock the Roman costume bits by playing it, if I want to do that. Who cares if someone else got it some other way? |
Well, I'm certainly glad I have you around to tell me what is and what is not an opinion around here. Perhaps you should take the MST3K Mantra, replace the word "show" with "video game", and repeat it to yourself over and over while you try to calm down. Please, for your own sake. You'll live longer, I guarantee it! In the meantime, I will continue to give your opinion on the subject the kind of response I feel it duly deserves. Thank you! |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Wait whaaa...? I've never heard of such an occurrence. Tell me more.
Back on topic, whilst "I don't like it." is a valid argument, it's not a compelling one. I'm not particularly convinced of the "Achievement" argument either. Players, and people in general, have two valuable resources which they try to spend carefully; Time and money. As it stands now, to unlock the Roman gear (or any other gated costume parts) requires time. Time to grind to 35, run the Midnighter missions and finally the ITF. Should the gear be available in the store then players have the option of saving time and spending money. Either way they'll be spending one of their valuable resources. That being said however, the idea of having a generic Roman set in the store while keeping the Cimeroran set ITF gated is a decent compromise which I have no problem with. |
I've suggested a lot of changes, many of which have come to pass. I always understand that I maintain the burden of showing how what I'm suggesting is a net positive. Here, all I'm seeing is a number of folks claiming that it is an inconvenience to be required to play the game for its rewards.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I wonder if the powers that be would consider selling them on the market as they did for the Vanguard pieces. It would be nice to be able to use them from creation instead of waiting until late in one's career to use them.
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So, to differentiate my argument from Evil Geko (and yet still agree with him... which is kinda scary... AGAIN), is that allowing things that were once only available via game-play to be bought makes the running of said game-play lose value. Therefore, people who only play the ITF for the costumes, will see no reason to do it anymore... as long as they have the cash that is. Which, of course, brings up another argument; one I shall abstain from now that this game has gone Hybrid.
There is a massive difference between "I don't like it", which is all this argument now boils down to, and "This is actually broken and affecting elements of gameplay."
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Again, giving people who WANT to pay for instant access to certain costume parts is not going to bring the game crashing to it's knees. Because it's already happened. Capes and Auras are already paid for Global Unlocks in the store. |
1. Let purchased capes become available at level 1, or
2. Let people *not* use, or even see, the things they'd paid for until level 20 or 30.
Since the second is obviously *far* from optimal, they went with the first... which left us with "You can use SOME capes/auras at level 1, others at level 20 or 30 IF you remember to run the mission." Now... you can unlock them all at level 1 (except for two....)
And you know what? I've STILL seen people running cape and aura missions in game, recently too. There are still people that go 'Meh, I'll just get it in game when I can be bothered' and ignore the store option. |
See that "Except for two" in my last reply?
Unless it's been fixed in a recent patch, you STILL need to run the cape mission to be able to use the Collectors Edition capes (Cape of the Four Winds/Arachnos cape.)
Honestly, given the position capes and auras are in (having some of THEM being purchased items and available at level 1, while having others need to be unlocked somehow,) I don't see it as anywhere *near* as strong an argument as you want to make it out to be. Quite honestly, as we got more boosters, I was coming more to the position that they should remove some of the complexity and make all of them universally available at level 1. Which I doubt will just happen, now, because of the store.
allowing things that were once only available via game-play to be bought makes the running of said game-play lose value.
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Secondly, some of those unlocks: Roman and Rularuu come late in the game. So... really? At level 35 or 40 you then suddenly become Romanesque in your costuming and theme? Or suddenly become Rularific? We can't make a gladiator character at Level 1?
Many of us have argued that that's pretty stupid to begin with.
And besides, that barn door has been opened and the barn burned to the ground with giving the level 20 and 30 cape and aura unlocks to Level 1s both through Incarnate Awards and Paragon Points. It's been done.
Therefore, people who only play the ITF for the costumes, will see no reason to do it anymore... as long as they have the cash that is. |
And it's OK with you to force them to do something they abhor (probably talking about the solo-only crowd) in order to get a vanity piece? Why? Does the ITF build good character? Make them better players?
The simple solution is more options. Make items available in-game for those who don't want to spend money on them, and make them available in the Market for those who do.
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Honestly, given the position capes and auras are in (having some of THEM being purchased items and available at level 1, while having others need to be unlocked somehow,) I don't see it as anywhere *near* as strong an argument as you want to make it out to be. Quite honestly, as we got more boosters, I was coming more to the position that they should remove some of the complexity and make all of them universally available at level 1. Which I doubt will just happen, now, because of the store. |
Going back to 37s post, the ratio of people who only run the ITF once per character JUST for the Roman armour compared to the people who will and do grind it day in day out, simply because they like it, is an astronomical difference. I once ran...four, five? In the space of one day alone.
The concept that said TFs will somehow die if the costume reward (completely ignoring the inf, exp and component rewards those TFs also give) is ALSO put in the market (note the also) is...frankly laughable.
To some people killing 200 Overseers is an 'achievement'. To many, it's a bloody awful grind that is an un-fun barrier to character concepts.
And this argument STILL boils down to "You should have to earn it!" "Fine, take my money." "That doesn't count!" "Why?" "Because!"
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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If the content requires a vanity unlock to make it worthwhile, then it's crap to begin with and needs to be done away with.
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Having the exact same thing available to just be purchased... yes, it *does* detract from it a bit for those people. Which is why I suggest a compromise "Have a Roman set that's a bit plainer or otherwise different in the store, with an ITF-Roman set available for unlock."
We can't make a gladiator character at Level 1? |
And besides, that barn door has been opened and the barn burned to the ground with giving the level 20 and 30 cape and aura unlocks to Level 1s both through Incarnate Awards and Paragon Points. It's been done. |
For some people, the fun in having the reward is in *earning* it. It's not the reward making the content worthwhile, it's the other way around - the reward actually *feeling like a reward.*
Having the exact same thing available to just be purchased... yes, it *does* detract from it a bit for those people. Which is why I suggest a compromise "Have a Roman set that's a bit plainer or otherwise different in the store, with an ITF-Roman set available for unlock." |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
For some people, the fun in having the reward is in *earning* it. It's not the reward making the content worthwhile, it's the other way around - the reward actually *feeling like a reward.*
Having the exact same thing available to just be purchased... yes, it *does* detract from it a bit for those people. Which is why I suggest a compromise "Have a Roman set that's a bit plainer or otherwise different in the store, with an ITF-Roman set available for unlock." |
But certain characters simply do not look right without certain parts, and I have no other options. So I have tough out the grind for the sake of continued and future fun.
People who see it as a reward HAVE their option. Those of us who see it as a godawful grind do NOT have any other option. It's as simple as that.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Secondly, some of those unlocks: Roman and Rularuu come late in the game. So... really? At level 35 or 40 you then suddenly become Romanesque in your costuming and theme? Or suddenly become Rularific? We can't make a gladiator character at Level 1?
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This argument is specious. The options exist, you just want this particular shiny.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Agree with Bill. I understand that many folks cannot see the validity in this argument. You do not believe that the achievement is of any import, so you don't feel that it is problematic to remove it. That's a reasonable opinion to have, but folks should realize that the contrary argument is no less valid.
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What IS being suggested is an alternative for those who find other unlocks problematic or simply annoying/unfun.
If people seriously think that people will suddenly stop running Phalanx TFs, ITFs or missions with Nemesis just because there is another option made available then...well, I'm going to have to laugh. Because said idea is just laughable.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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I've yet to hear a convincing argument from the opposition.