Roman Costume Pieces for sale

Yeah, that part was me shrugging my hands into the air and engaging in a bit of hyperbole.

I've yet to hear a convincing argument from the opposition.

This post makes me think of someone describing chewing on a nail - "rather iron-y."

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

No, of course not. You have every right to suggest it should be changed. I simply disagree and don't believe it should change.


No slippery slope. Techbot's argument was that costumes can be purchased with RL cash because they have no affect on combat (what he calls gameplay). Well, neither do badges but no one reasonably suggest they should be sold.

An analogy is not resorting to a slippery slope. If I had said, "If the devs give in on this, next people will be asking for PvP IOs to be sold." That's a slippery slope argument.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it is not an opinion that when you allow an achievement to be circumvented it is no longer an achievement. Your opinion boils down to the fact that you don't believe that this particular achievement is worth maintaining. That's a reasonable opinion, but it doesn't invalidate the factual statement I made. And it's not an equivalent statement.

So you're annoyed that, lessee, Capes, Auras and VG equipment are all available in the store then? Setting a tri-part precedent for this to happen?

Sorry, but it's the opinion of a lot of people that having to grind levels and TFs and badges for costume points is boring and not fun. Their opinion is just as valid as yours. You lose NOTHING when people like us get to pay a little extra to skip the part we find un-fun. I'm sorry that obviously give you such issues.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Yes, I am.

It's the opinion of a lot of people that rewards should be earned not given away.

Your inability to argue this issue without resort to petty insults is endearing, but preferring that the game retain some costume pieces as rewards is far from having 'issues'. In fact, the only person who has shown even a bit of emotion is you. Not sure why.

/signed - I'll spend lots and lots of money for these options. Please take MOAR of my money!

For those who don't want to spend the money or who enjoy the activities, then luckily, they're available in game.

I have no problem with you disagreeing. But I find your reasons flawed, and your offered reasoning a bit disingenuous.

Actually, yes it was. You tried to use scare tactics ("...so should we start selling Empath? Or Advisor?"), to imply that once the devs start down this path of selling goodies on the new market that were once only available by doing certain content within the game, then sooner or later they will start doing that with everything in the game.

Aside from the ridiculous notion that selling all the game has to offer on the new market is somehow "bad", just how is what someone else does in this game going to hurt you at all? Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game? Will they be perpetually kill-stealing from you if they do this? Will they be pulling Giant Monsters and Arch-Villains to your low level characters all the time? Will they sneak into your house at night and replace the game client with Hello Kitty Adventures? Please give me a better reason for not liking this idea other than "I don't like it", if you're going to continue on with such foolishness.

I don't know about you, but I don't go sticking my nose into other peoples' business. If they want to use tickets to buy a costume set so they can use it at level one, then good for them! The ITF is still there. I can still unlock the Roman costume bits by playing it, if I want to do that. Who cares if someone else got it some other way?

Well, I'm certainly glad I have you around to tell me what is and what is not an opinion around here. Perhaps you should take the MST3K Mantra, replace the word "show" with "video game", and repeat it to yourself over and over while you try to calm down. Please, for your own sake. You'll live longer, I guarantee it!

In the meantime, I will continue to give your opinion on the subject the kind of response I feel it duly deserves. Thank you!

Ah, well, the fact that such things weren't available from level 1 annoyed me for years. I'd say that it's about time I get to be happy with such things and you get to be annoyed. This shoe is uncomfortable, you wear it for awhile. I've kept it warm and fungus-y for you.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

... aside from the fact they wouldn't be doing the things to get the rewards in game, would have fewer reasons to go through the actions in game, and may well get bored and leave the game because of it? Fewer players = bad. Both for players (fewer people to team with) and Paragon/NC (fewer people spending money.)

I *get* not liking "having" to unlock something each time. Which is why, earlier, I mentioned having two versions of the costume pieces - one in the store, and one (fancier) one to unlock, which I feel is a good middle ground. Those that don't want to deal with it can still buy the pieces and get their "concept" done from level 1, those that do - well, may still decide to buy the pieces, then earn the fancier stuff later in the character's life.

It broadens the appeal of the game to do so. Those that want it NAO can have it - without taking the fun (whether you think it is or not) of earning it away from the "Achiever" types who look forward to that sort of thing as a sort of accomplishment.


Because some player actions are bad, affecting others play and/or the health of the game.

Do you care that people used to be able to go into RV, get confused, and nuke people under the Atlas statue with no fear of retaliation?

Do you care that, via monkey/comm officer/etc farms, people were being rushed to 50 in... what, an hour?

Do you care that a Kheldian was able to one-shot Hamidon?

Do you care that people could just TP teammates and drop them off a building into mobs without warning or any option of refusal on the victim's part?

Do you care that people could be TP'd into guard towers and left there with no means of exit without assistance?

If you answered "Yes" to any of the above, you care what others do in this game. You'll also note that the above are no longer possible (well, one is, but the player has to turn the warning off) because the *devs* cared about what was good for the game as well.

Want a non-exploit example? OK. Do you care that the broadcast BS on Freedom is a reason people don't play there, especially now that you *can't* start somewhere other than Atlas heroside?

"I don't like it" is perfectly valid.

He did not attempt to redefine what an opinion was. He pointed out that when you remove the act that makes an achievement an achievement, it's no longer an achievement. Which is true, and which is why I proposed what I did - having a purchasable version and a non purchasable version.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Wait whaaa...? I've never heard of such an occurrence. Tell me more.

Back on topic, whilst "I don't like it." is a valid argument, it's not a compelling one. I'm not particularly convinced of the "Achievement" argument either. Players, and people in general, have two valuable resources which they try to spend carefully; Time and money. As it stands now, to unlock the Roman gear (or any other gated costume parts) requires time. Time to grind to 35, run the Midnighter missions and finally the ITF. Should the gear be available in the store then players have the option of saving time and spending money. Either way they'll be spending one of their valuable resources.

That being said however, the idea of having a generic Roman set in the store while keeping the Cimeroran set ITF gated is a decent compromise which I have no problem with.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

There is a massive difference between "I don't like it", which is all this argument now boils down to, and "This is actually broken and affecting elements of gameplay."

Again, giving people who WANT to pay for instant access to certain costume parts is not going to bring the game crashing to it's knees. Because it's already happened. Capes and Auras are already paid for Global Unlocks in the store.
And you know what? I've STILL seen people running cape and aura missions in game, recently too. There are still people that go 'Meh, I'll just get it in game when I can be bothered' and ignore the store option.

Now, were we arguing 'Paying your way to 50' then, yes, I'd be joining in slapping that down as a patently stupid idea. That WOULD effect gameplay and the player-base as a whole.
This, however, is not even on the same scale. Costume pieces have NO effect on gameplay. None. Nada. Zilch. And while some people consider them a reward, other people, myself included, see that as an incovenience. WE would like the OPTION to pay for that inconvenience to be removed. This, in no way, shape or form, has ANY effect on people that do not want to pay/aren't fussed about having it now. They can still run it the way they want to, and those that would rather avoid grind and annoyance can do so.

Again, there is precedent. And look, the game world hasn't ended. Imagine that.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

What's disingenuous about the belief that something that has been heretofore an achievement should stay such.


Empath is a badge, Advisor is a badge. Both rewards which have no affect on combat. No slippery slope.

This is not a solo game. This is a game with certain goals and achievements. Once you take a reward and remove the achievement from it, you have lessened the game for everyone else.

On a more concrete basis, some people do the ITF for the merits, some do it for badges, some do it for costume pieces. If people can just buy one of the rewards then that's some non-zero number of people who will no longer wish to run the content. If that ever affects my or anyone else's recruiting efforts for an ITF, then it affects me.

This is the fallacy of your argument. This is a persistent online game. Player actions affect each other. I know for a fact that some people no longer see much need to run the RWZ raid because they have all the costume pieces. That makes it that much harder to earn those pieces.

I do.

Are you projecting? I've found your vacuous arguments quite entertaining.

"I don't like this idea," is no less compelling an argument than, "I don't want to do the task required for the reward." Each is a statement of preference. In fact, the "I don't like this idea" inherently has more weight because it represents the status quo.

I've suggested a lot of changes, many of which have come to pass. I always understand that I maintain the burden of showing how what I'm suggesting is a net positive. Here, all I'm seeing is a number of folks claiming that it is an inconvenience to be required to play the game for its rewards.

I sincerely hope that never happens, sorry to disappoint. I am steadfastly opposed for things that are obtainable via game-play to ever become available for purchase. The VG pieces were released as a perk to everyone for a set amount of Loyalty... so in that case, I guess the selling is alright to level the playing field. As such, if they Roman pieces were made into a similar free account-wide perk first, I would be fine with them going up for sale later... as long as something unavailable in the game were included with said pack (i.e. the Mini VG Robot).

So, to differentiate my argument from Evil Geko (and yet still agree with him... which is kinda scary... AGAIN), is that allowing things that were once only available via game-play to be bought makes the running of said game-play lose value. Therefore, people who only play the ITF for the costumes, will see no reason to do it anymore... as long as they have the cash that is. Which, of course, brings up another argument; one I shall abstain from now that this game has gone Hybrid.

The list was in response to the question, "Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game?" Note the lack of qualifiers. And none of the list is any more silly than some of the examples put forward in the post that mine replied to.

Let me point out one thing to you, though, since you want to use that argument. Capes and Auras were already in a very *odd* position thanks to booster packs. PS had two choices:
1. Let purchased capes become available at level 1, or
2. Let people *not* use, or even see, the things they'd paid for until level 20 or 30.

Since the second is obviously *far* from optimal, they went with the first... which left us with "You can use SOME capes/auras at level 1, others at level 20 or 30 IF you remember to run the mission." Now... you can unlock them all at level 1 (except for two....)

I went with the store option on one account, and still run the mission. Want to know why?

See that "Except for two" in my last reply?

Unless it's been fixed in a recent patch, you STILL need to run the cape mission to be able to use the Collectors Edition capes (Cape of the Four Winds/Arachnos cape.)

Honestly, given the position capes and auras are in (having some of THEM being purchased items and available at level 1, while having others need to be unlocked somehow,) I don't see it as anywhere *near* as strong an argument as you want to make it out to be. Quite honestly, as we got more boosters, I was coming more to the position that they should remove some of the complexity and make all of them universally available at level 1. Which I doubt will just happen, now, because of the store.

See my Guides and Tutorials

If the content requires a vanity unlock to make it worthwhile, then it's crap to begin with and needs to be done away with.

Secondly, some of those unlocks: Roman and Rularuu come late in the game. So... really? At level 35 or 40 you then suddenly become Romanesque in your costuming and theme? Or suddenly become Rularific? We can't make a gladiator character at Level 1?

Many of us have argued that that's pretty stupid to begin with.

And besides, that barn door has been opened and the barn burned to the ground with giving the level 20 and 30 cape and aura unlocks to Level 1s both through Incarnate Awards and Paragon Points. It's been done.


Really? You're going to make the argument that there are a significant number of players whose *only reason* for doing the ITF is for the costume pieces?

And it's OK with you to force them to do something they abhor (probably talking about the solo-only crowd) in order to get a vanity piece? Why? Does the ITF build good character? Make them better players?



The simple solution is more options. Make items available in-game for those who don't want to spend money on them, and make them available in the Market for those who do.

It's as strong an argument as "I think this should be so, and my way is more right than your way" which seems to be the major counter-argument going right now.

Going back to 37s post, the ratio of people who only run the ITF once per character JUST for the Roman armour compared to the people who will and do grind it day in day out, simply because they like it, is an astronomical difference. I once ran...four, five? In the space of one day alone.
The concept that said TFs will somehow die if the costume reward (completely ignoring the inf, exp and component rewards those TFs also give) is ALSO put in the market (note the also) is...frankly laughable.

To some people killing 200 Overseers is an 'achievement'. To many, it's a bloody awful grind that is an un-fun barrier to character concepts.
And this argument STILL boils down to "You should have to earn it!" "Fine, take my money." "That doesn't count!" "Why?" "Because!"

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

For some people, the fun in having the reward is in *earning* it. It's not the reward making the content worthwhile, it's the other way around - the reward actually *feeling like a reward.*

Having the exact same thing available to just be purchased... yes, it *does* detract from it a bit for those people. Which is why I suggest a compromise "Have a Roman set that's a bit plainer or otherwise different in the store, with an ITF-Roman set available for unlock."


Sure you can. Rough leather, kilt, various barbarian pieces...
See prior comments on capes and auras. I don't see them being as strong an argument as people want to use them as for purchasing unlocks.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Agree with Bill. I understand that many folks cannot see the validity in this argument. You do not believe that the achievement is of any import, so you don't feel that it is problematic to remove it. That's a reasonable opinion to have, but folks should realize that the contrary argument is no less valid.

And all of that is entirely subjective. For me, personally, fighting 100 Fake Nems or 200 Overseers doesn't feel like a reward. It doesn't even feel fun! In fact, it feels like a bloody awful grind that I hate with a passion!

But certain characters simply do not look right without certain parts, and I have no other options. So I have tough out the grind for the sake of continued and future fun.

People who see it as a reward HAVE their option. Those of us who see it as a godawful grind do NOT have any other option. It's as simple as that.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Sure you can. You just can't use a few specific pieces. There are many ways available at level 1 to make Roman era characters. Likewise, the Mutant Pack could easily help one create a Rularuu inspired costume.

This argument is specious. The options exist, you just want this particular shiny.

No one is suggesting removing anything. The in-game unlocks, as they have for Capes, Auras and VG armour/weapons, are still there.

What IS being suggested is an alternative for those who find other unlocks problematic or simply annoying/unfun.

If people seriously think that people will suddenly stop running Phalanx TFs, ITFs or missions with Nemesis just because there is another option made available then...well, I'm going to have to laugh. Because said idea is just laughable.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.