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At least Sam is honest. He doesn't care about anyone else's game. One of these days he might recognize he's not playing a single-player game though. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wrong guy to ask, Bill. I don't give a toss about badges. Sell them, take them out of the game, strip them of all players and make us have to reearn them, it doesn't impact me in the slightest. It's like asking me if I'm OK with people in China not having to pay garbage tax. Um... Yes? No? Pick an answer, it's all the same by me.
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| As far as I'm concerned, everybody wins. Other than people who want me to specifically NOT have the costume pieces in question, of course. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The dictionary generally lacks its own context, but it gives definitions of words. One such definition it gives for elitist/elitism matches yours, and the proper context for such would seem to be political. The rest that I'm seeing basically boil down to having a superiority complex.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes, I guess if you consider the dictionary a 'political context'.
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Of course, it's clear that your cause is lost if you must demonize the opposition. But arguing for an absolutist position is often a lost cause. 
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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No, that's your caricature of my position. I truly don't care how many people have the Roman or other costume pieces. I gain no psychic joy from seeing people not have the pieces. I do however, believe that there is value in achievement. In earning things. I would not be for people being able to auto-level to 50, or buying PvP Inventions, or getting accolades without earning them either.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
You've basically been talking about being unable to feel good about one's self without being able to feel like one is better than someone else. To point out that such an ideology is elitist hardly demonizes it.
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Again, you join the two concepts in your mind in an attempt to discredit my position. It cannot be that I have any reasonable motives, no, I must be an evil elitist who is out to destroy other's fun.
Believe whatever you wish. You must forget that the developers created the system you are trying to destroy. And I don't think you get very far assuming that they must be elitists out to destroy player's fun.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And yet those two examples are totally different.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No, that's your caricature of my position. I truly don't care how many people have the Roman or other costume pieces. I gain no psychic joy from seeing people not have the pieces. I do however, believe that there is value in achievement. In earning things. I would not be for people being able to auto-level to 50, or buying PvP Inventions, or getting accolades without earning them either.
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Non-Accolade badges and Costume Pieces = No benefit. They are purely cosmetic
Level 50, PVP IOs, IOs in general, Accolades = Gameplay benefits. They are not cosmetic.
I think it is a reasonable stance to allow purchase of purely cosmetic things in the store, as they have no bearing on other players and no effect on gameplay.
This will neither remove nor effect the ability to earn the same rewards in-game. It should be the players choice whether to spend time or money on a purely cosmetic effect, since it only effects them.
(And I'm in the same camp as Sam in that badges are one of those things I go 'Oh yeah, they exist don't they' once in a while. Just not my thing, really, except when I decide I sometimes need to go accolade hunting on a level 50)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If it was merely about there being value in earning the achievement, it wouldn't matter if other people "earned" it or not. The value in earning it yourself would be the same. Unless that value hinges on other people not having it who haven't "earned" it. In which case my estimation of your stance isn't a caricature at all.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No, that's your caricature of my position. I truly don't care how many people have the Roman or other costume pieces. I gain no psychic joy from seeing people not have the pieces. I do however, believe that there is value in achievement. In earning things. I would not be for people being able to auto-level to 50, or buying PvP Inventions, or getting accolades without earning them either.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I fear you never will understand. The necessity of earning a thing is a critical element in the pride of having it. If the devs allow you to buy a reward, then the achievement is lost. If you care nothing for achievement I can see how you might believe how you do.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If it was merely about there being value in earning the achievement, it wouldn't matter if other people "earned" it or not. The value in earning it yourself would be the same. Unless that value hinges on other people not having it who haven't "earned" it. In which case my estimation of your stance isn't a caricature at all.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Except it doesn't. He's still got all those badges, and he still got them the time way, by going and finding them. He doesn't/didn't have to pay for them.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Now, then what would you say to Beef-Cake who has played hard to earn as many badges as he did, helped support a website to give aid to other players in badge hunting, and greatly enjoys the chase and competitive aspect of badges?
You are willing to make all that achievement meaningless. To wear some clothes at level 1? |
He can still enjoy chasing badges. No one is taking that away. Any sense of 'losing achievement' is entirely subjective, in the same way that badge hunting itself is a subjective achievement and a personal choice.
Things that do not directly affect gameplay are achievements when we make them such, like the level 1 Death Race through all Villain zones that was held a while back.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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What is stopping you (general 'you') from having pride in getting it anyway? Why is it suddenly 'less' meaningful just because other people can buy things? That just means they have less time/inclination to grind. You can still do it your way and take pride in doing so. No one is suggesting taking away alternatives.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I fear you never will understand. The necessity of earning a thing is a critical element in the pride of having it. If the devs allow you to buy a reward, then the achievement is lost. If you care nothing for achievement I can see how you might believe how you do.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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What's stopping me (general 'me') in having pride is that the was no need to earn it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What is stopping you (general 'you') from having pride in getting it anyway? Why is it suddenly 'less' meaningful just because other people can buy things? That just means they have less time/inclination to grind. You can still do it your way and take pride in doing so. No one is suggesting taking away alternatives.
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I don't know how else to explain this to you. Some people, and I'm one of them, want to be REQUIRED to earn things in the game. Once you remove the requirement, there is no pride of doing the task. The task becomes meaningless. Tenzhi and others suggest that is because I wish for others not to have it. That's almost the opposite of how I feel. I actually want ALL players to earn the Roman pieces. But I want them to earn them.
To give you an analogy that many people can relate to. In high school they award letters to adorn your school jacket to athletes and others who do certain school activities (like band). The pride in wearing that letter when I was in high school was that I earned it. If they just allowed me to buy the letter as a freshman, there would be no pride in having the letter. It's just something I bought. Even if I could still earn one for being on a sport. The earning would be worthless to me at that point.
This is completely divorced from anyone else. I don't care how many other people earned a letter. In fact, at the boys school I started high school at, you were all but required to be on a sport and so by junior year almost everyone had a letter anyway. But each of us took pride in having it, because it was something we HAD to earn. And we were proud of our fellows and admired their wearing of the school letter because we knew they earned it as well.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What's stopping me (general 'me') in having pride is that the was no need to earn it.
I don't know how else to explain this to you. Some people, and I'm one of them, want to be REQUIRED to earn things in the game. Once you remove the requirement, there is no pride of doing the task. The task becomes meaningless. Tenzhi and others suggest that is because I wish for others not to have it. That's almost the opposite of how I feel. I actually want ALL players to earn the Roman pieces. But I want them to earn them. To give you an analogy that many people can relate to. In high school they award letters to adorn your school jacket to athletes and others who do certain school activities (like band). The pride in wearing that letter when I was in high school was that I earned it. If they just allowed me to buy the letter as a freshman, there would be no pride in having the letter. It's just something I bought. Even if I could still earn one for being on a sport. The earning would be worthless to me at that point. This is completely divorced from anyone else. I don't care how many other people earned a letter. In fact, at the boys school I started high school at, you were all but required to be on a sport and so by junior year almost everyone had a letter anyway. But each of us took pride in having it, because it was something we HAD to earn. And we were proud of our fellows and admired their wearing of the school letter because we knew they earned it as well. |
There is no reward, no accomplishment in having to do the ITF on each character you have, it does not get any harder through repetition. It is just a pointless time sink, that prevents players from accomplishing a character concept or visual style from creation.
Given that one of the competition gives global unlocks of costume pieces once ‘earned’ and the other was slated for its ‘get the gear, unlock the look but only on that character’ system. Paragon studios could do with reconsidering the need to lock costume pieces behind arbitrary gates, particularly when some of these gates are only accessible during certain times of the year.
Edit to go a bit ranty:
So you want a pair of furred gloves to finish of the Barbarian with fur set you just bought? Lol enjoy waiting till Christmas.
Summer dress? Better hope the valentine’s day events running.
That pumpkin head that will finish off your possessed scarecrow who batters people with his stick? You so silly, Staff Melee comes out after Hallowean, wait until next year!
Want to make a loyal roman soldier who battles crime with his sword and shield and unwavering loyalty to truth and justice? No. No .no first you’ve got to level up to 35 and join with a bunch of other people to do a TF that you’ve done before on a whole host of other characters, remember you’ve got to do a story arc first too, one that ends in a tedious battle against an enemy group, that you get to slowly one hit kill.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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This ultimately boils down to what people want, then.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What's stopping me (general 'me') in having pride is that the was no need to earn it.
I don't know how else to explain this to you. Some people, and I'm one of them, want to be REQUIRED to earn things in the game. Once you remove the requirement, there is no pride of doing the task. The task becomes meaningless. Tenzhi and others suggest that is because I wish for others not to have it. That's almost the opposite of how I feel. I actually want ALL players to earn the Roman pieces. But I want them to earn them. |
You want one way.
Other people want another way.
Ultimately, this is a game. People play this game for fun. What is fun for you is not going to be the same thing others find fun.
You are, ultimately, saying that YOUR way of fun is the one that people should have to partake in.
While you and others are entitled (and rightly so) to your ideas of fun, that right ends as soon as it encroaches on others.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Really? D&Ders moved up from a regular sword to a +5 Sword because of *looks*?! Do you think the "+5" means "plus 5 levels of beauty?" All the D&Ders I know would wield a sword made of dung if it was +10.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Visual achievement has been a pillar of RPGs since Dungeons & Dragons. Even then, when you had to use your imagination, you were very proud to receive your +5 Holy Sword of Demon Slaying or whatever because it was shiny and looked better than the tin sword you used at level 1.
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So, the counter argument you make that "it's part of the RP heritage to level up in looks" is bogus. Really, you have no point here.
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| The Invention pieces are a good cautionary tale. At this point you've devalued the invention pieces so much that they are 'trash' drops. You need no sugar daddy. I was able to earn the money for insect wings on a newbie character before she made level 3 (obviously leaving the tutorial at level 2). Now that said, I actually see the conceptual argument for body pieces like wings moreso than clothes like the Roman pieces. |
You seem to be all about "got to achieve it". But when suggestions are made about how to achieve it *and* make it available at Level 1, your logic gears spaz out.
If costume pieces were never gated by level in the first place, we would not be having this conversation. You seem to be arguing for the status quo simply because it's the status quo. I've never seen you argue for gating more costumes behind Level locked content. But suddenly, the few that are become sacrosanct. And no other reward can replace it.
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Except the point that every RPG does it. Your anecdotes to the contrary notwithstanding.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, the counter argument you make that "it's part of the RP heritage to level up in looks" is bogus. Really, you have no point here. |
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| You seem to be all about "got to achieve it". But when suggestions are made about how to achieve it *and* make it available at Level 1, your logic gears spaz out. |
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| You seem to be arguing for the status quo simply because it's the status quo. I've never seen you argue for gating more costumes behind Level locked content. But suddenly, the few that are become sacrosanct. And no other reward can replace it. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Except the point that every RPG does it. Your anecdotes to the contrary notwithstanding.
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You mean DnD the game that was entirely pen and paper right? As in your worn shortsword could look say a million times better than a +5 scimitar of mc awesome? Because it was in your imagination?
Again the +5 +7 +8 or whatever is a gameplay mechanic, it would not have to affect how the weapon looked, I know this since I rp'd a shabby fighter who despite his fabolous level of ++ on his gear, still looked like a bum.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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"Win"? I could have sworn you've been talking about how people should be "earning" that costume set in this thread. Suddenly it's "win"?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't care how many people win the Roman costume pieces. Just so long as they win them.
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Speaking of earning things, who's to say they're not earning that costume set by buying it from the market? Don't most of the players here have jobs? That means the money they use to get the goodies they want is money they earned. So even if they bought it, they still had to do something in order to get it!
You gonna go and tell all those hard working players that their money's no good? I think I'll stand far away from you, then.
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They award the letters. Do you also want to be awarded a jacket to put them on? You go ahead and earn the letter (The TF completion badge). I just want a nice jacket (the costume) and don't care if I ever get the letter.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
To give you an analogy that many people can relate to. In high school they award letters to adorn your school jacket to athletes and others who do certain school activities (like band). The pride in wearing that letter when I was in high school was that I earned it. If they just allowed me to buy the letter as a freshman, there would be no pride in having the letter. It's just something I bought. Even if I could still earn one for being on a sport. The earning would be worthless to me at that point.
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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And I've RPed a dashing paladin whose sword earned by storming the lower plains on his quest for immortality shone like the morning sun. Providing an exceptional case as you have does not invalidate my argument. It illuminates it. The wonderful contrast you struck with your fighter is commendable. You were probably fun to play with.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You mean DnD the game that was entirely pen and paper right? As in your worn shortsword could look say a million times better than a +5 scimitar of mc awesome? Because it was in your imagination?
Again the +5 +7 +8 or whatever is a gameplay mechanic, it would not have to affect how the weapon looked, I know this since I rp'd a shabby fighter who despite his fabolous level of ++ on his gear, still looked like a bum. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I get the feeling my last post simply got ignored... 
And I like Kiken's analogy.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
And I've RPed a dashing paladin whose sword earned by storming the lower plains on his quest for immortality shone like the morning sun. Providing an exceptional case as you have does not invalidate my argument. It illuminates it. The wonderful contrast you struck with your fighter is commendable. You were probably fun to play with.
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The only example of higher level ='s prettier gear comes about from gear progression based games.
CoH has never been a gear based progression game, other than auras and capes there was nothing that made a level 1 look different to a level 50.
You want a game where you look prettier the higher level you are? Or the luckier you are with loot farming?
There are a whole host of fantasy MMO's out there for you, heck there is even one super hero MMO that works like that.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If there is no pride in doing a task unless you and others are required to do it, then it follows that the pride does not lie in doing the task. Thus, where does the pride come from if not from the ability to have something others don't because they didn't "earn" it?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What's stopping me (general 'me') in having pride is that the was no need to earn it.
I don't know how else to explain this to you. Some people, and I'm one of them, want to be REQUIRED to earn things in the game. Once you remove the requirement, there is no pride of doing the task. The task becomes meaningless. Tenzhi and others suggest that is because I wish for others not to have it. That's almost the opposite of how I feel. I actually want ALL players to earn the Roman pieces. But I want them to earn them. |
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| To give you an analogy that many people can relate to. In high school they award letters to adorn your school jacket to athletes and others who do certain school activities (like band). The pride in wearing that letter when I was in high school was that I earned it. If they just allowed me to buy the letter as a freshman, there would be no pride in having the letter. It's just something I bought. Even if I could still earn one for being on a sport. The earning would be worthless to me at that point. |
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| This is completely divorced from anyone else. I don't care how many other people earned a letter. In fact, at the boys school I started high school at, you were all but required to be on a sport and so by junior year almost everyone had a letter anyway. But each of us took pride in having it, because it was something we HAD to earn. And we were proud of our fellows and admired their wearing of the school letter because we knew they earned it as well. |
What about those who didn't earn one? The typical social pressures, eh? What would your fellows have done if they found someone with a letter who hadn't earned it, I wonder? In my school the Athletic letters treated the Band letters like second class citizens and most everyone else worse than that. I can only imagine what an all boys school would have been like.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
There seems to be little sense to arguing against buying the Roman armor via the new system.
Back in the day when the ITF was the new in-thing to do, I did run alt after alt through to unlock weapons and the armor, but that in and of itself was never the motivation. Having fun with friends in game was. Since I've come back, I've seen one ITF forming. Every other time I've been in Cim, the zone is empty.
Once content is older and is no longer frequently run, I see no reason to keep purely cosmetic rewards locked away where new players may not ever even know it exists. Either make it a global unlock, or put it in the store.
If a person spends their Points on the Roman armor, that's X number of points less they have to spend on other buyable content, whereas they could have unlocked the armor for free and had more points to spend on content they cannot get for free. They lose some flexibility for the convenience and it's hurting no one else.
There's nothing wrong with giving people choices on what to do with their time. Ninety percent of the time, I'll choose the free way of doing things when possible, but sometimes, convenience is just more important to me. Or maybe I've seen the content enough in my time playing and I just really don't feel like having to grind an alt up to a certain level and deal with a PuG ITF for the hundredth time.
Don't get me wrong, I love the ITF. Wouldn't have run it multiple times a day if I didn't. Everyone who has been around since the ITF was created has probably run all their alts and then some and gotten the benefit of using the armor.
I'm perfectly OK with letting the exclusivity of the armor go and putting it up for sale. Afterall, how many of us ground out Vanguard merits via Mothership Raids for the Vanguard set? I know I did, but we can buy it now and I'm really OK with that.
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So, you'd be OK, then, with using Merits, an in-game achievement currency, to trade in for account-wide Roman Costume Set unlock?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about buying costume pieces. I don't remember ever arguing against an achievement based means to earn these pieces.
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I have no quarrel with you wearing free costume pieces. Let's not be silly here. The Roman pieces are part of the reward. So no, you can't have those until you do the task.
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Originally Posted by Kiken
They award the letters. Do you also want to be awarded a jacket to put them on? You go ahead and earn the letter (The TF completion badge). I just want a nice jacket (the costume) and don't care if I ever get the letter.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes, absolutely. As I have no quarrel with using Astral merits to unlock capes for an alt. I don't even have a problem with account-wide unlocks. Not sure why you thought I did.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, you'd be OK, then, with using Merits, an in-game achievement currency, to trade in for account-wide Roman Costume Set unlock?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Of course, it's clear that your cause is lost if you must demonize the opposition. But arguing for an absolutist position is often a lost cause.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.