Roman Costume Pieces for sale

If you are, then you're doing in a very funny way. The solution is rather easy: Make the costumes available on the market and continue to have them be unlockable via the ITF. The people who will be miffed at this will be few, compared to the majority of the playerbase (presumably you and EG, and... who else?).

Why are you arguing against me? I'm always an advocate for freedom of choice, and by the looks of things, the devs seem to like the idea of selling more costume sets on the market. What, exactly, is it going to depreciate if the Roman costume set is suddenly available there?

Like I've got the time to go around and check each and every post either of you have made over the last few years. I don't recall ever responding to either of you before, though I have argued with a lot of people on this board in the past. All I know about you and EG are the words you've written in this thread.

Wrapping yourself up in a banner of righteous indignation actually does nothing to either bolster or endear your point of view. Though I'm sure it might sway some people, such an appeal to others' emotions is merely fallacious at best, and deceitful at worst.

Soooo... when the Roman costume bits are eventually made available on the market, are you going to start complaining about it this vociferously?

It is conditionally being required to do the task. There are often multiple paths to a given reward.

Just getting the elitism out into the open.

Are you fine, then, with doing the same thing for badges?

Question's open for anyone wanting to put locked costume pieces in the market.

If not, why not? After all, some of the same arguments can be made:
- Some are level locked.
- Some take a lot of "grind" to get to that people don't find pleasant.
- The titles you can use them for would be fully appropriate for a character starting at level 1, even if you can't GET them at that level, thus 'completing' a character concept.

Fold any bonuses into level achievements instead of tying them to badges to avoid that issue.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Why would it be meaningless? You still earned it, didn't you?

You understand where I'm coming from on that? Just because you don't like the idea, you don't want others to be able to just purchase the darned costume bits from the market. Yeah, that's... not fair at all.

Hello again, mister Slippery Slope! How I missed you since yesterday.

If someone wants to pay real money for badges, I say go ahead and milk'em for cash.

What's elitist about wanting people to actually have to play the game to earn its rewards?

Not that I'm not elitist. I'll cop to that. But what of it. What's inherently illegitimate about being elitist?

Elitists, by their very nature, must stand on the backs of others. It's quite good to seek to better one's self, it's quite the opposite to require other people to be lessor in order to validate one's self. The latter is the elitist.

I'm afraid you're the one doing it in a "funny way."

My way preserves an award for those who want the feeling of achievement by unlocking, while presenting those who want it from level 1 a way of getting the same theme. Both get what they want.

Your way sacrifices one play style for another.

Then why are you depreciating another's choice?
So don't make assumptions.

That's not indignation, that's pointing out how foolish it is of you to make assumptions.

Nope. Just going to shrug and go on about my business. Not sure why you insist on villifying people. Though, again - look, you, assuming.

See my Guides and Tutorials

You want players to be unable to use the costume set prior to level 35, even though it might fit the theme of their character. I thought this was obviously elitist.

I'm not an elitist, I'm a Socialist. Therefore, for me to get into the myriad of reasons why I think elitism is wrong would not only spin this thread into a far off tangent, it would also probably get it locked. So... I won't go there!

So you have no answer? Is one sign of achievement less worthy of being up for sale than another? After all, it offers up more paths for the same thing, and weren't you just saying how you were all for that?

Again, given the same arguments can be made for having them available, why aren't you jumping up and down going "Yes, put those in the store too, NOW!" like you are with costumes?

Or do you just want to show your - what was your phrase, "Righteous Indignation?"

By the way, "Slippery slope" would be saying "if this happens, then that happens." I did not do so. I asked if those who think it's OK to move one achievement to the store (the roman pieces) are fine with doing it to another, and if not, why not. Do try to use the phrase correctly.

We've already gotten one "Sure, do it" from Tenzhi, but I'm still fairly sure he hates the game.

See my Guides and Tutorials

On the Internet, there is always room for argument.

But maybe you're right. There's nothing I can say that will change other peoples' minds, here. After we've voiced our original opinions, the rest is just so much bickering.

Your analogy of badges to costume parts isn't entirely fair. For example the vast majority of badge titles, whilst cosmetic, have very low visibility, in that they're not widely known. Nor are they intrinsic to character concepts as costume parts are. Those that have any "status" tend to be the accolade badges, many of which provide tangible gameplay bonuses. Those gameplay bonuses are bound per character, as they should be, just as any badge being earned by the achievements of that single character.

Costume pieces have no effect on gameplay whatsoever, as has been stated vehemently in this thread. They also have much higher visibility and are often intrinsic to concept.

So I suggest another compromise. As I opined previously, costume unlocks should be global. So you run the ITF/grind Rulaaru bosses and unlock the costume parts globally, but the associated badge is awarded per character.

You still have to earn those costume parts, but only once.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

I, for one, have always supported this suggestion when it arises.

How many really know about costume unlocks?
Says who? Why should my character have to wait to be called "Archmage," for instance? Or "Unveiler?" That can be as important to a concept as having a Roman codpiece or whatnot.
Thus my note about "Move power bonuses out of the badges," specifically to avoid that.

And again, I'd argue the title from a badge can be *just* as important to a concept as a costume piece. It is something I've gone out of my way to get for specific characters... just like "grinding" enemies for a costume piece for some people.

I actually don't mind this, believe it or not.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Because that 'choice' is depreciating the choice of those who want to choose to buy costumes on the market.

The 'choice' of getting costumes through the game is already there. The only one, in fact. Our choice does not in fact exist yet.
We would like a choice.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Why not? If people really want to buy badges, more power to 'em.

Except for pre-requisite badges for Accolades. Because those have actual in-game effects on game-play, rather than being purely vanity items.

I think that's reasonable?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Costumes as achievements that lock away the costume from Level 1 is contradictory to a role-playing genre. Make them available as achievements through or account-wide unlocks (sorry, Memphis Bill for not seeing your compromise position), or through buying them with Merits that can then be applied to your new Level 1 toons... that would be fine with me.

After all, that's the case with the wing and boot Recipes (although their achievement value was greatly diminished with the increase in drop rate). Anyone can sugar daddy them to their brand new Level 1 toons.

No, that's actually not what the word elitist means. An Elitist is someone who favors rule by an elite. I will cop to the idea that I do not wish to be ruled by the under-educated masses, which is why I'm a strong proponent of representative democracy and do not believe in most systems of direct democracy like those practiced in California and elsewhere.

Visual achievement has been a pillar of RPGs since Dungeons & Dragons. Even then, when you had to use your imagination, you were very proud to receive your +5 Holy Sword of Demon Slaying or whatever because it was shiny and looked better than the tin sword you used at level 1.

The Invention pieces are a good cautionary tale. At this point you've devalued the invention pieces so much that they are 'trash' drops. You need no sugar daddy. I was able to earn the money for insect wings on a newbie character before she made level 3 (obviously leaving the tutorial at level 2). Now that said, I actually see the conceptual argument for body pieces like wings moreso than clothes like the Roman pieces.

Now, then what would you say to Beef-Cake who has played hard to earn as many badges as he did, helped support a website to give aid to other players in badge hunting, and greatly enjoys the chase and competitive aspect of badges?

You are willing to make all that achievement meaningless. To wear some clothes at level 1?

Considering that I don't feel it is much of a chore, no. I don't think one needs to be an 'elite' player to run an ITF. I believe this whole 'elitist' tangent is an attempt by you folks to discredit my position. My position is fairly narrow. I believe that having a very small number of costume pieces earned as rewards is OK so long as the vast majority of pieces are available at level 1. I support the Roman pieces, the Incarnate pieces, and the various weapon unlocks.

It is clear that the contrary position is an absolutist position. You wish to remove now and forever, the concept of using costume pieces as rewards for content. I think that's drastic. It's certainly no where near an "obvious" position as Sam quips considering there's a whole game out there now which makes earning costume pieces a goal.

Nearly every place that's actually tried to make Socialism work has found itself led by a elite, either of privilege or cronyism. The elite of a society will find ways to make themselves the rulers because they have the skill and desire. I have yet to see any non-theoretical political system that doesn't find itself led by an elite class eventually.

Actually, it is. Your definition is also a definition of elitist. I suspect yours is most often used in a political context.

Wrong guy to ask, Bill. I don't give a toss about badges. Sell them, take them out of the game, strip them of all players and make us have to reearn them, it doesn't impact me in the slightest. It's like asking me if I'm OK with people in China not having to pay garbage tax. Um... Yes? No? Pick an answer, it's all the same by me.

Going by presumption that you don't want badges sold for money and hypothesising for a moment that I agree with you - I don't think anyone here is talking about buying the badges associated with these unlocks, just the unlocks themselves. I want the Rularuu weapons, not the achievement (such as it is - I've always asked other people to unlock them for me and will continue to do so) or the badges associated with them. I just want the weapons.

As has been my stance pretty much since day one, I honestly couldn't care less what other people have that I don't, or that other people may be given for free what I paid money or did work for. I'm only and solely concerned with what I have, and if other people have more than me, then more power to them. Right now, you can only earn these badges in-game, and wait quite a while before you even get a shot at them, if we're talking about getting them "the right way." Having them sold in the store does not remove this from the game, and you can still technically earn them for free if you didn't feel like paying for them.

Some people look at this and postulate: "It's not fair that I had to work when you just got it off the Market!" while others simply scoff and say: "You paid actual money for this? Why? You can unlock it in the game for free! I did." So long as we're talking about cosmetic options, I'm fine with seeing them all buyable in the store AND earnable in the game, and that includes previously purchase-only boosters. If you want to pay money for the Animal Pack, buy it. If you're too cheap to buy it, then run a 35+ TF and you can still have it.

As far as I'm concerned, everybody wins. Other than people who want me to specifically NOT have the costume pieces in question, of course.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.