Spinning Strike ranges too low
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-10-07 10:06 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I don't find that Spinning Strike hits fewer mobs than Lotus Drops, simply by dint of the fact that the player occupies a good chunk of space in the Lotus Drops AoE, whereas by targeting a mob in the middle ranks,Spinning Strike's AoE can be filled completely with enemies.
I never, ever ran into the situation of a PBAoE hitting less targets than an identical radius TAoE (let alone a smaller radius one!) myself as the mobs tend to be gathered in a neat circle around my own character.
Maybe it's supposed to be a melee cone and not really a Targeted AoE. I don't know the set yet, but I'm surprise to see a street-fighting set contain a Targeted AoE at all.
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It is a TAoE with a 6 feet radius sphere around the target you hit, so not around you like PbAOEs. It accepts TAoE sets unlike melee cones. There's been a lotof complaining about that.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Maybe it's supposed to be a melee cone and not really a Targeted AoE. I don't know the set yet, but I'm surprise to see a street-fighting set contain a Targeted AoE at all.
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I have no trouble hitting enemies with it. In fact it can be even better at it by virtue of being able to "aim" the attack in the many circumstances where the enemies aren't perfectly circling you for whatever reason. I've even observed that if the enemies are as tightly packed around you as you say, hitting an enemy in front of you can still hit someone behind you.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I never, ever ran into the situation of a PBAoE hitting less targets than an identical radius TAoE (let alone a smaller radius one!) myself as the mobs tend to be gathered in a neat circle around my own character.
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It also synergizes with a cone better, since you have to have enemies clumped in an area in one spot rather than all around you if you have any plans of actually using a cone attack to its potential. I've never been a fan of "wade in, wade out" for traditional PBAoE + cone sets.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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THis has been my experience as well. I am pleasantly surprised by how well the TAoE Spinning Strike works.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I have no trouble hitting enemies with it. In fact it can be even better at it by virtue of being able to "aim" the attack in the many circumstances where the enemies aren't perfectly circling you for whatever reason. I've even observed that if the enemies are as tightly packed around you as you say, hitting an enemy in front of you can still hit someone behind you.
It also synergizes with a cone better, since you have to have enemies clumped in an area in one spot rather than all around you if you have any plans of actually using a cone attack to its potential. I've never been a fan of "wade in, wade out" for traditional PBAoE + cone sets. |
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Neither have I ... which is why I slot my melee cones for range (Frost in Tanker Ice Melee being a prime candidate for this) and going vertical in a Hop 'n' Pop maneuver that points the Cone *DOWNWARDS* at everything below me, and keying the power to activate at the top of my jump/hop. This maintains my positioning in the horizontal plane, while also turning my Cone attack into a "Poor Man's PBAoE" that catches a lot more targets simply by virtue of aiming the Cone DOWN rather than trying to do a "slice of pie" off to one side, and missing everyone not in that slice.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I've never been a fan of "wade in, wade out" for traditional PBAoE + cone sets.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Melee cones take range enhancment?
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Depends on the melee cone power. Some do ... some don't. Most of the ones that don't are "narrow cone" powers that are like 5-10 degrees of cone. Powers which are "wide cone" type (like Frost) tend to take, and make use of, range enhancements, which extends the radius of effect on the cone. At +50% range on a cone, you double the area of effect in terms of ft^2 ... which then means you're much better able to catch MORE targets within the AoE, and better able to throughput damage to a crowd (because the cone is "wider" at the limit of its range, thanks to the enhancement).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
The only issue IMO is that the TAoE IO sets suck. They tend to go:
Acc/Dam, Dam/End, Dam/Rech, Dam/Range, Acc/Dam/End, and Dam/End/Range or a Proc.
I'd love to have a set with Acc/Dam/Rech instead of Dam/Range and Dam/End/Rech instead of Dam/End/Range.
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Actually I AM a fan of that.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
It also synergizes with a cone better, since you have to have enemies clumped in an area in one spot rather than all around you if you have any plans of actually using a cone attack to its potential. I've never been a fan of "wade in, wade out" for traditional PBAoE + cone sets.
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#1 it keeps the fight fluid which feels more like a fight and less like grinding.
#2 the AI is dumb and mobs attack less often (a part of me humanizes them and thinks they are trying to decide to stay put and use a ranged attack or step forward and melee again--either way they don't attack at full speed)
#3 mobs tend to spread out if you stay put, if you move now and again, they clump up THEN try to spread out around you again after. If you keep moving they keep trying to clump up as their AI tries to path all of them to the same ideal melee spot, then they repath adjacent then adjacent to he one who's already there etc.
#4 I have way too many narrow cones and need to move to use them effectively anyhow hehe.
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If you see in Mids that the clone is 'Melee' (Shadow Maul, One Thousand Cuts, Crowd Control - all have melee range tho CC is 8' instead of 7), no they don't.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Melee cones take range enhancment?
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Now the ones classified as 'Close' (Frost, which has a 10' range, Breath of Fire, 15' range) they do.
Headsplitter has a 10' range too but it's classified as melee and doesn't take range enhancers.
Although someone posted he used dam/range HOs to have a 12' Crowd Control - I put three in Headsplitter in Mid's and now I get 15.6 range.
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That works in mids but unfortunately not in game, at least not for golden dragonfly.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Although someone posted he used dam/range HOs to have a 12' Crowd Control - I put three in Headsplitter in Mid's and now I get 15.6 range. |
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Mid's is saying the Range enhancement in Posi's Blast is functioning in Spinning Strike. |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
That works in mids but unfortunately not in game, at least not for golden dragonfly.
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I doubt it is working in game though, it's flagged as melee/smashing, which so far has meant that it will not accept range enhancements, or they will not work if they are part of something else (Like an IO or HO)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Sit in a crowd, hit spinning strike, bulk of crowd gets smacked...
It feels fine to me. And recharges fast. I approve of what it is doing.
Try to buff it, gonna lose recharge, or increase endurance cost, or something.
Leave it be.
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I honestly don't understand why this power is not a PBAOE, the animation screams for it. I guess just to be different, but eh. Im not sold that it being a targeted AOE is a good thing.
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It's not inherently good, or bad. It's different. Different is there to keep all sets from just being clones of eachother. This particular different may not be for you. But that's okay.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
I honestly don't understand why this power is not a PBAOE, the animation screams for it. I guess just to be different, but eh. Im not sold that it being a targeted AOE is a good thing.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Dont get me wrong, I love Street Justice and it's hands down my favorite melee set now. Its just the animation for spin strikes doesnt fit it being a targeted AOE in my opinion. Ill learn to use it, lol.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
It's not inherently good, or bad. It's different. Different is there to keep all sets from just being clones of eachother. This particular different may not be for you. But that's okay.
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I like it. I imagine that I kick a guy and cause him to go spinning, and his flailing limbs hit all the people around him.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
Dont get me wrong, I love Street Justice and it's hands down my favorite melee set now. Its just the animation for spin strikes doesnt fit it being a targeted AOE in my opinion. Ill learn to use it, lol.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I've been playing it on a Stalker and even on teams, where you'd think with someone else getting the attention and having mobs clustering around them, I'd have an easy time sweeping herds of enemies. Still, I often find myself thinking, "You know, I'd have hit more of them with a PBAoE that time."
I think the "you don't take up space in the center" advantage isn't much of one. This is really only an advantage when the mobs are literally packed shoulder-to-shoulder in a tight ball. Any other time, the advantage of a PBAoE is you can put yourself exactly right where you want the sphere to be centered. With a TAoE you must pick someone to be the center so your choices are limited. If you have a few to your left and a few to your right, you can drop a PBAoE right between them and get them all. With a TAoE you will have to go right or left and miss some on the opposite side. Or wait and try to get them more clustered. But waiting means not using an available AoE when it is available. Means less effective.
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In terms of area, there's no numerical advantage to PBAoEs over TAoEs. There are possibly qualitative advantages one way or the other; in the case of Spinning Strike, I think the mobs' tendency to surround player characters plays against the power.|
Originally Posted by Zem
I've been playing it on a Stalker and even on teams, where you'd think with someone else getting the attention and having mobs clustering around them, I'd have an easy time sweeping herds of enemies. Still, I often find myself thinking, "You know, I'd have hit more of them with a PBAoE that time."
I think the "you don't take up space in the center" advantage isn't much of one. This is really only an advantage when the mobs are literally packed shoulder-to-shoulder in a tight ball. Any other time, the advantage of a PBAoE is you can put yourself exactly right where you want the sphere to be centered. With a TAoE you must pick someone to be the center so your choices are limited. If you have a few to your left and a few to your right, you can drop a PBAoE right between them and get them all. With a TAoE you will have to go right or left and miss some on the opposite side. Or wait and try to get them more clustered. But waiting means not using an available AoE when it is available. Means less effective. |
That said, if you position yourself for best use of Sweeping Cross (a melee cone), then you'll be in perfect position to take advantage of Spinning Strike. In that sense, a TAoE is better than a PBAoE, because the latter requires you to have some of your targets behind you to take full advantage of the attack's area. The TAoE doesn't care where the mobs are in relation to you, as long as they're close enough to each other.
In short, Spinning Strike might be better, on its own merits, as a PBAoE, but as a TAoE it at least theoretically has a better synergy with Sweeping Cross.
Frankly I think part of the problem here is that people are subconsciously used to AoE attacks with larger areas. Even Dragon's Tail has a larger area than Spinning Strike (8' radius versus 6', which translates to a 78% advantage in terms of floor coverage).
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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<Bip CRACK!> (TWIRL)
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I like it. I imagine that I kick a guy and cause him to go spinning, and his flailing limbs hit all the people around him.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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LOL! I like this. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
I like it. I imagine that I kick a guy and cause him to go spinning, and his flailing limbs hit all the people around him.
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I was reasoning that your character was hurling him/herself into the mass of bad guys, spinnin' and smackin' everything they could reach then landing back on his/her feet.
However you justify it, it makes things different, for sure.
I find Spinning Strike much, much easier to use than a PbAoE. And more fun to use AND it usually does more damage (in my experience)
So, no, Spinning Strike is just fine (in my opinion, YMMV)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Lotus Drops does about the same damage as Spinning Strike and has a range of 8 as a PBAoE. Spinning Strike is a Targetted AoE with a range of 7 and AoE of 6? Well Lotus Drops will always hit more mobs in the same groupings, you just manuever your character a step forward, right, left, or back and you are guarenteed to hit more mobs and it's very easy to do. The 6 foot AoE is too small , turning Spinning Strike into just a melee cone instead of a targetted AoE or PBAoE.
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