DM/Inv.
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@Starflier
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That's true, I forget about DM. The -hit from the attacks and the self heal from siphon life in your normal attack chain are probably great survival tools.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
DM/Inv.
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Touch of fear is pretty great for hard targets too with it's high hit debuff.
The /inv was expected though.
I agree with Dark Melee/Invulnerability. You can soft cap smashing, lethal, fire, cold, energy and negative with one target. You won't have the defense debuff resistance to back it up, but you'll be over the soft cap in most fights to give you a little breathing room, plus you have your other layers (resistance, hit points, damage recovery) intact.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I have the feeling that this will, most likely, be a rather unanimous opinion.
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Originally Posted by Werner
I agree with Dark Melee/Invulnerability. You can soft cap smashing, lethal, fire, cold, energy and negative with one target. You won't have the defense debuff resistance to back it up, but you'll be over the soft cap in most fights to give you a little breathing room, plus you have your other layers (resistance, hit points, damage recovery) intact.
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DM/WP...
I wouldn't exactly say it has lower HP. Will it be capped? No, not likely. Will it be REALLY close? Yes, it can be!
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How about DM/SR? I'm sure Werner will agree that a DM/SR is an excellent scrapper. Easy to get positional defense over 45%, then you can work on other parts of the build.
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SR is a two trick pony these days (the first being ease of softcap, the second being DDR to maintain said softcap). There are dm/shield builds that steal the second trick's thunder and are also softcapped, add a large damage boost (perhaps rivaled by SRs recharge boost, but probably not), have better resistances, and more health.
Ultimately, though, much like a brute, it's hard to go wrong with a scrapper. Sink enough time/money into any secondary and it becomes 'the most durable' (a regen/soul/barrier scrapper with a lot of recharge, for example, has high resistances and defense on a regular basis backed by three strong self heals. Hard to go wrong with soft capped defense and 130 health per second regeneration).
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Throw in another vote for DM/Inv, with DM/SD as an alternate choice.
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I actually though DM/Regen might not be bad as well.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
SR is a two trick pony these days (the first being ease of softcap, the second being DDR to maintain said softcap). There are dm/shield builds that steal the second trick's thunder and are also softcapped, add a large damage boost (perhaps rivaled by SRs recharge boost, but probably not), have better resistances, and more health.
Ultimately, though, much like a brute, it's hard to go wrong with a scrapper. Sink enough time/money into any secondary and it becomes 'the most durable' (a regen/soul/barrier scrapper with a lot of recharge, for example, has high resistances and defense on a regular basis backed by three strong self heals. Hard to go wrong with soft capped defense and 130 health per second regeneration). |
Simply, because you can get your regen to a very high level, support that with dull pain as a mitigator, reconstruction as an emergency heal, siphon life as both a damage source and healing source, instant healing for tougher situations, both MoG and Shadow Meld as supports for your regen when you're facing tougher groups or other tough mob types especially when IH is down. You can also use barrier as another mitigation tool.
My simple issue with regen has always been it's low resists, 30% S/L is a great improvement from what it use to be, but 30% is far and away from what is achieveable with a /inv 60-70+ resists in S/L is very significant and without shadow meld, MoG, or barrier active I'm personally never been able to put together a regen build that was able to reach 45% S/L defense on its own. That's probably, because I typically focus on +HP/+Regen on regen builds.
Oh! I lost my train of thought when I was posting, so I had to come back to this. On top of that my real issue with regen is how crippling -recharge can be to the entire secondary.
No love for Kat/Dark or Dark/Dark? Crazy heal, mez toggles, and your choice of +Defense or -ToHit. Not quite as good against single difficult targets, but unbelievable against the hordes.
I'd say dm/inv, too. I have since re-rolled him as a tank for concept. My dm/sr is quite tough tho. 1900hp (stays rogue for red side bonuses and has pvp IO's), but a boon is that it has 192.5% recharge so spamming siphon life is great. This is all with IO's (very important) and Incarnate stuff (both rebirth radial and barrier to taste). In general, tho, DM/INV. I like my dm/shield, too: kills things before they really become a threat.
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Forgive my ignorance, but what is DDR?
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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Defense Debuff Resistance. SR and SD [built correctly] have high values for this which makes it far harder for their defense levels to be debuffed below the softcap.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Forgive my ignorance, but what is DDR?
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Invuln sits at 50%, but typically has free buffer defense in large crowds due to Invincibility. This helps avoid cascading defense failure in large groups.
I just don't (personally) understand the draw of mixing DM and Regen together.
Since regen is all about healing, Siphon Life seems to be a bit redundant.
I'd much prefer mixing DM with a set that provides superior resistance or defense to create some synergy.
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But healing is synergetic with healing. That's the idea, more of a good thing.|
Originally Posted by JLane
I just don't (personally) understand the draw of mixing DM and Regen together.
Since regen is all about healing, Siphon Life seems to be a bit redundant. I'd much prefer mixing DM with a set that provides superior resistance or defense to create some synergy. |
Your main sources of healing are reconstruction and dull pain. The best I could do, while maintaining at least 32.5% defense, was get the recharge on reconstruction down to ~16 seconds. That's with spiritual core paragon. That means one full heal every 16 seconds or so.
Dull pain, should already be active (To clarify this, dull pain will typically be active as this should be your first choice of which heal to use when you need one. If dull pain is up, use dull pain to heal. If not use reconstruction.) It's been tested time and time and time again that Dull pain is more effective as a mitigator overtime (More clarification) i the form of added regen/hp boost rather than a heal which I am simply going to trust their word on that.
This means that you have one clickable heal available, you have dull pain up for the HP/regen boost (Which has already provided you a substainal heal), instant healing, you have MoG, Shadow Meld, and barrier in reserve to use as needed, but on top of all that you have siphon life plugging away at a 33% heal every three seconds (in my build). This means you can become less reliant on reconstruction and have it up more when you absolutely need it. Without siphon life there will be a lot more situations where you absolutely need reconstruction. It's really an attempt to make reconstruction more useful when you need it rather than making it a regular necessity.
The idea is that you really do have layers of defense. The only things I see as a real differences (Without doing a point for point comparison) is that each layer of defense is of a varying size and effect between the two sets and that regen has more active mitigation tools than invulnerability. Plus when you actually look at the layers, the only thing that really changes is when and how much mitigation takes place. For example defense mitigation takes place first and is either 100% or 0% mitigation, resistance takes place next based on your % of resistance to that damage type, hit point total (Some people may look at this as a form of mitigation, I'm one of them) the amount of damage you can mitigate at this point is any amount that will leave you with one hp or more, and then healing which takes place after the fact and is a positive mitigation (which is kind of neat). When I say that healing is a form of positive mitigation, I mean that it actually increases your potential for mitigation activitely. Out of all the layers of defense it's the only one you need (If you remove the potential for 100% resistance or 100% defense, which we don't have to worry about) as long as it continues to be higher than the incoming damage.
Regen has resists and Invul has resists. Invul simply has more resists.
Regen has regen and Invul has regen. Regen simply has more regen.
Invul has defense and regen can have defense. Invul simply has more defense
Regen and Invul both have active healing abilities. Regen simply has more of them.
Clearly there are expections and situational circumstances involved as well as variances that I didn't address (such as types of resists and defenses, etc.), but broadly they aren't different in their end, simply how they meet that end. Of course then there are variances of performance over different durations, sustainability, etc., but that's a whole different ball of wax.
Either way more healing is great for either of them.
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Dark Melee/Super Reflexes is an excellent Scrapper, but not the most durable in most situations. Most durable on a very low budget, perhaps, though I haven't really thought that one through.|
Originally Posted by SpikyShane
How about DM/SR? I'm sure Werner will agree that a DM/SR is an excellent scrapper. Easy to get positional defense over 45%, then you can work on other parts of the build.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
No love for Kat/Dark or Dark/Dark? Crazy heal, mez toggles, and your choice of +Defense or -ToHit. Not quite as good against single difficult targets, but unbelievable against the hordes.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Consider two Regen Scrappers entering a fight. The first uses Dull Pain proactively for the buff. The second waits. After both Scrappers take a bunch of damage, the second Scrapper clicks Dull Pain and heals to full. Both Scrappers are now buffed, but the second Scrapper has full health, and the buff will last a few seconds longer.|
Originally Posted by Gospel_NA
It's been tested time and time and time again that Dull pain is more effective as a mitigator (In the form of added regen/hp boost) rather than a heal which I am simply going to trust their word on that.
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This isn't a choice between buffing OR healing, it's a choice between buffing or buffing AND healing.
Don't waste the heal.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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But that's a situational variance. Over normal use the buffing turns out to provide more mitigation over time.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Consider two Regen Scrappers entering a fight. The first uses Dull Pain proactively for the buff. The second waits. After both Scrappers take a bunch of damage, the second Scrapper clicks Dull Pain and heals to full. Both Scrappers are now buffed, but the second Scrapper has full health, and the buff will last a few seconds longer.
This isn't a choice between buffing OR healing, it's a choice between buffing or buffing AND healing. Don't waste the heal. |
I agree with you 100% that there are, indeed, better times to use it.
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Right, the buff provides more mitigation and healing over time than the heal itself. I thought you were saying that people had proved that for maximum survivability you should click it as soon as it recharged, which would have been wrong. It sounds like I just misunderstood what you were saying, though. I think we're on the same page.
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Originally Posted by Gospel_NA
But that's a situational variance. Over normal use the buffing turns out to provide more mitigation over time.
I agree with you 100% that there are, indeed, better times to use it. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Dark Melee, Martial Arts, Kenetics, Dual Blades, or whatever...however, Will Power is by far, in my opinion, the best defensive power to have.|
Originally Posted by Gospel_NA
I was thinking about my characters and I realize that I'm really enjoy characters that can take the most punishment and survive situations that most characters could not.
What would you do? |
DM / WP you won't gone wrong with that.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Yes, I could have worded that better, I imagine. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Right, the buff provides more mitigation and healing over time than the heal itself. I thought you were saying that people had proved that for maximum survivability you should click it as soon as it recharged, which would have been wrong. It sounds like I just misunderstood what you were saying, though. I think we're on the same page.
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Clarified my post without making signifcant changes to it.
I look for Spike Protection, Damage Mitigation and permissibility, and HPS Recovery/Regen/Healing.
DM/INV is probably the top of the heap.
Softcapped Willpower is likely next. I'm a big fan of Kat/WP atm for even more defense, but DM/WP with the right build may top it. I felt like Kat/Wp was a better synergy.
DM/Regen may well be able to pull in 350 400 hps, but will be lacking in armor, resistance, and permissibility. Kat/Regen, or BS/Regen can fill in the gap some, as can Shadow Meld, MoG, and Candy. But eventually, the holes will catch up to you, and this kind of build will cost you exponentially more than the DM/INV. Just not worth it. IMO. Then again, 400 hps would be a sight to see, and nothing less than massive spike or massive DDR failure would take you down. Maybe it would be worth it, but not on my budget.
DA just doesn't have the spike protection. If you get double tapped, you're done. Otherwise, I'd say it's great. Werner's Kat/DA version is spectacular. But I think it was Bassackward's DM/INV (I don't recall who it was) that was even more survivable in the builds I've looked at over the years.
DM/SD is overall very good, great offense and great defense, but similarly lacks spike protection. Again, if you get double tapped, you're done. But, if you want a lean mean AV fighting machine, this is definitely in the short-list, if not the top of the list.
No set is perfect, but each of the following are ones to look into:
Kat/BS: Large Magnitude Defense Boost
DM: Small Magnitude Defense Boost, Medium Magnitude HPS boost.
INV: Large Magnitude Spike and Defense, and Resist Boost, lacks HPS.
WP: Moderate Magnitude Defense, Resist, and Spike. Large Magnitude HPS. Needs a small boost in defense and or resist.
SD: Low Magnitude Spike and resist. Moderate Magnitude Defense. Large Magnitude Damage Bonus. Needs HPS, small defense and moderate resist boosts.
Mix and Match the above, and you'll get the short-list.
Just to be contrary: DM/EA instead of DM/Invul
Easier road to the softcap, Tier 9 for when you really need capped HP, solid resistances with Tough, reasonable heal, plus drain mobs endurance and recharge.
I have had both (the DM/EA is a brute) and both are pretty much un-killable so I don't think it's a big issue either way.
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I am surprised to see DM suggested as the most survivable primary for a scrapper. Sure the -ToHit and extra heal are handy. But the fact that the set lacks any substantial AOE seems like a pretty big deal. I always thought part of a Scrappers survival is kill speed. If you have to run around the mobs one by one and kill them it seems like its going to take a very long time to flatten an 8 man spawn. Heck I've always felt the reason that Dark Melee gets a 30 second damage buff was to make up for the fact that they have to run around punching everything in the face one at a time.
Most survivable for a Tank sure, but as a Scrapper I know I would at least like to have access to one real AOE in my primary.
I was thinking about my characters and I realize that I'm really enjoy characters that can take the most punishment and survive situations that most characters could not. However, I'm also realizing I dislike the damage tanks are capable of and am really starting to tire of the fury mechanics on brutes.
So, that leaves me thinking about making the must durable scapper I could possibly make without completely debilitating his damage.
So far I'm think Invulnerability seems like the top end survivability set even with it's major psi weakness. With the ability to cap s/l resistance, manage very high energy resists, and other resistances at a respectable level and the ability to reach s/l soft cap along with other soft capped defense with invincibility, it seems like the prime canidate. Not to mention the sorely needed hp increase from dull pain.
Willpower seems like it's up there too, but with the lower hp and the pain of having regen very reliant on mob proximity makes me look at invunleribility more.
What do you folks think about the most survivable secondary?
Then there's the primary. I've had a tough time with this. I don't see the advantages of parry and divine avalanche as much with a set like invulneribility. Maybe the -damage component with KM is useful? Battle axe for it's knockdowns? War mace for it's knockdown/disorient combination?
What would you do?