The Most Durable Scrapper?


Arcanaville

 

Posted

On the subject of durability, do you think there is now more of a need to softcap Energy Defense these days? I don't believe softcapping S/L defense is enough anymore now that we are in the phase of iTrials and Praetorian enemies.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift_Frost View Post
Excuse me for thinking this was for "opinions about [The Most Durable Scrapper]". i put my 2 cents in about SR.
Does your thinking that preclude other people responding to your posts?

There are some areas where SR just shines, particularly in places like the ITF. However, you mentioned soft-capping "destroys any chance of you trying to play anything else." Soft-capping is not actually all that strong by itself. *Keeping* the soft cap under extreme debuffing like in the ITF can be impressive. But if *all* you have is the soft cap, an Invuln will tend to outperform you. It also can get very high defense *and* it has dull pain and resistances. The combination is simply numerically stronger, period, so it will always look better. My Katana/Invuln strolled through the last Ramiel mission and she has an incredibly cheap build: common IOs and some cheap sets. My MA/SR can also do that, but at much higher cost.

You put a lot of stuff *inside* soft-capping, and now its a different story. Stick in heals, a lot of regeneration through inventions, and particularly aid self and now SR starts to become a monster on par with other monsters. But given other powersets can reach similar levels of defense while also possessing other protections SR cannot as easily acquire, I believe SR will never be able to hold claim to the best performing scrapper secondary *except* in the specific case of high-order debuffing situations, like the ITF or even things like Tin Mage.

Which is not bad. Its just not everything. And if nothing else, rather than spoiling me for other powersets I find playing other sets makes me appreciate SR more, and vice versa.


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Posted

Yeah, I used to think my dm/sr scrapper was the tops and impossible to beat. Then I rolled up a well-built dm/inv scrapper and realized how much nicer life is when defense is backed up by resistance and a fat heal on demand. Given equal inf investment, I found dm/inv is much tougher.

Tossing my vote in for dm/inv. Mine just plain doesn't die. Someone upthread was talking about killspeed as a survival mechanism; I didn't find it to be that important. My dm/inv gets hit rarely, takes less damage when he does get hit, and heals most or all of it back with a fast-recharging Siphon Life. If I take a mean hit, Dull Pain is there for me. I spend some time moving around, lining up SM, I find things die more than fast enough.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Sadly, I think the top end ELA user, is better off as a Brute or Tanker, in terms of survivabilty, than use on a Scrapper.
Also true of invuln or any other armor set that makes good use of capping either resistance or hp. Being better on a brute does not make it weaker than other scrapper secondaries; they are all better on brutes for survival, it's just a matter of how much.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
Also true of invuln or any other armor set that makes good use of capping either resistance or hp. Being better on a brute does not make it weaker than other scrapper secondaries; they are all better on brutes for survival, it's just a matter of how much.
But that question of how much better opens the door to some sets gaining more of an advantage or less when transitioned to Brutes or especially Tankers. For example, because of the way the numbers work out, Dark and ELA are almost different powersets on Tankers than on Scrappers or Brutes, because so many of their resistances are high enough for accelerated stacking to become a factor. SR is another one of those sets: SR tankers are not just scaled up SR scrappers, they are scaled up perma-elude scrappers.

Its not true that if X>Y for scrappers, that even if the sets are not tampered with in proliferation X will still be greater than Y for Brutes or especially Tankers. It might be, and then again it might not be.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
But that question of how much better opens the door to some sets gaining more of an advantage or less when transitioned to Brutes or especially Tankers. For example, because of the way the numbers work out, Dark and ELA are almost different powersets on Tankers than on Scrappers or Brutes, because so many of their resistances are high enough for accelerated stacking to become a factor. SR is another one of those sets: SR tankers are not just scaled up SR scrappers, they are scaled up perma-elude scrappers.

Its not true that if X>Y for scrappers, that even if the sets are not tampered with in proliferation X will still be greater than Y for Brutes or especially Tankers. It might be, and then again it might not be.
Ya, my point is that even if a set is one that benefits greatly from the higher resistance cap/hp of a brute*, it does not inherently mean it is worse on a scrapper from one that does not gain as much. I've seen that sort of statement thrown around to indicate that some sets are "weak" on scrappers (electric, invuln, dark) compared to, say, sr because the sets are a good amount better on brutes; they may still be better than sr on scrappers, it's just that the brute version would be even better still.

An example of what I mean is someone posts saying they want to deal a metric ton of damage but also survive really well and asks about dm/elec on scrappers. Someone replies "DM will do good damage, but electric is so much better on a brute that I wouldn't play it on a scrapper. Try dm/sr." Electric may be better on a brute, but the dm/elec scrapper has potential for both more damage and better survivability than the dm/sr (in most cases at least).

*Tanks are really a different thing altogether, I just included them because they were in the post I quoted


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Does your thinking that preclude other people responding to your posts?

There are some areas where SR just shines, particularly in places like the ITF. However, you mentioned soft-capping "destroys any chance of you trying to play anything else." Soft-capping is not actually all that strong by itself. *Keeping* the soft cap under extreme debuffing like in the ITF can be impressive. But if *all* you have is the soft cap, an Invuln will tend to outperform you. It also can get very high defense *and* it has dull pain and resistances. The combination is simply numerically stronger, period, so it will always look better. My Katana/Invuln strolled through the last Ramiel mission and she has an incredibly cheap build: common IOs and some cheap sets. My MA/SR can also do that, but at much higher cost.

You put a lot of stuff *inside* soft-capping, and now its a different story. Stick in heals, a lot of regeneration through inventions, and particularly aid self and now SR starts to become a monster on par with other monsters. But given other powersets can reach similar levels of defense while also possessing other protections SR cannot as easily acquire, I believe SR will never be able to hold claim to the best performing scrapper secondary *except* in the specific case of high-order debuffing situations, like the ITF or even things like Tin Mage.

Which is not bad. Its just not everything. And if nothing else, rather than spoiling me for other powersets I find playing other sets makes me appreciate SR more, and vice versa.
you and werner done?

If not please continue on your tirade of owning the scrapper forums. I get it people don't like kicking a dead horse. I was simply replying to the topic. But it seems if peoples posts don't measure up or they start kicking a dead horse you jump at there throats. Be my guest though rip my post up continue on your tirade, I'm not gonna add fuel to the fire, I'm not gonna bother replying to threads on the scrapper forums anymore since both of you don't like people offering there opinions.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift_Frost View Post
you and werner done?

If not please continue on your tirade of owning the scrapper forums. I get it people don't like kicking a dead horse. I was simply replying to the topic. But it seems if peoples posts don't measure up or they start kicking a dead horse you jump at there throats. Be my guest though rip my post up continue on your tirade, I'm not gonna add fuel to the fire, I'm not gonna bother replying to threads on the scrapper forums anymore since both of you don't like people offering there opinions.
You need to take a chill pill and go lie down.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift_Frost View Post
I'm not gonna bother replying to threads on the scrapper forums anymore since both of you don't like people offering there opinions.
Well, if you don't want to see people respond to you, not posting is the way to go, as opposed to insisting no one respond to you, which is what seems to be the most common approach.

You seem to think you're being picked on for having an opinion. I don't think that's the case at all. Here's why.

Statements of opinion, broadly, come in two forms.
  1. I like X.
  2. I like X because Y.
Version (1) is hard to debate - it is a statement of personal preference. Version (2) might lead to debate, depending on the form of "Y". If "Y" is a subjective statement, it's hard to debate. "I like SR because I enjoy surviving just because I dodge everything" isn't really debatable. "I like SR because it's better than everything else" combines an opinion with an objective justification, and that objective part is possible to debate.

Your opinion about SR, as stated, looks like my version (2). The way you wrote it makes it easy to infer that you think SR has survival performance beyond that of other sets. That you like SR is an opinion, and it shouldn't be up for debate. That SR's survival transcends that of other sets is something objective that can be tested. That's what drew responses from Werner and Arcanaville.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
That SR's survival transcends that of other sets is something objective that can be tested.
And, considering the subject of this thread is about which is the most survivable, actually debating the merits is... you know... a good way to actually gain a better understanding (even if the ultimate truth is not found).


I like Regeneration. That doesn't mean that if I had posted /regen, and someone comes in and shows that it doesn't perform all that well compared against others in based on any form of evidence other than simple opinion, that they somehow assaulted me.

The Scrapper forum has a reputation for actually running numbers. If you're going to post a claim, you better either have numbers that can in some way back it up, or not be bothered that someone else might post numbers that disprove your statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight View Post
The Scrapper forum has a reputation for actually running numbers.
It has a reputation for actually debating issues rather than taking them at face value. No one's opinion goes unchallenged including, and even especially mine. But *all* the forums are supposed to contain the presumption that if you say X, someone else might say Y instead. You should in fact expect it. If you think the purpose of the forums is to have a place to express ideas without being contradicted, no forum section is safe refuge. These are discussion forums, not therapy sessions. I expect people who disagree to express disagreement, hopefully in an informatively useful way, but express it all the same.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
But *all* the forums are supposed to contain the presumption that If you think the purpose of the forums is to have a place to express ideas without being contradicted, no forum section is safe refuge.
Except the pvp forums.


>.>
<.<

What?


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Posted

The forums are a great place for information.

Also a great place to run into people that like to argue just for the sake of it.

Best thing you can do is admit when you're wrong, be humble when you're right, and skip posts that simply look like they're in it for a fight rather than information. Most of the time, but not all of the time, you can tell the difference.

Now if they'd just make another primary that had a self heal in it, I'd be happy.

I hate dark melee. The lack of AoE is something I don't like. Furthermore, I have an intense dislike for shadowmaul.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gospel_NA View Post
I hate dark melee. The lack of AoE is something I don't like. Furthermore, I have an intense dislike for shadowmaul.
* Tries desperately to argue against this subjective statement, but goes home in failure.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
* Tries desperately to argue against this subjective statement, but goes home in failure.
Personally, I think trading AoE for the heal and control in Dark Melee is a pretty fair trade. The set has enough mitigation to almost make an entire scrapper secondary.

Shadow Maul is something I tend to appreciate more while leveling up. If you can line up more than one target in its arc its DPE is very good and its DPS is not bad, and that makes it a highly efficient power to use early on. I actually prefer it to things like breath of fire and jacob's ladder. Its telling that for me most of my melee characters take and use sands of mu while leveling up, which is just a weaker version of shadow maul.

Which is not to say there aren't better powers, but there always are. And seven years of eagle's claw has probably made me more tolerant of long cast times than the average player.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
* Tries desperately to argue against this subjective statement, but goes home in failure.
Of course it's subjective.

I didn't say Dark melee was bad or that shadow maul was bad. The Lack of AoE comment is in comparison to other sets, which typically have a least a PBAoE. Which I like better. I've had good use out of shadow maul, but I do much better with things like spin or fire sword circle or whirling hands etc.

I just said I didn't like them


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Personally, I think trading AoE for the heal and control in Dark Melee is a pretty fair trade. The set has enough mitigation to almost make an entire scrapper secondary.
Sorry, Arcana, that was humor fail on my part. I love Dark Melee, and I have and use Shadow Maul all the time. (But not as part of a ST attack chain!) I was referring back to earlier thread thrashing on arguing against pure opinions. I picked the statement I did because it was well structured as stating something purely subjective.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Sorry, Arcana, that was humor fail on my part.
So that was a fail about a fail about a fail?



I find your lack of win disturbing.


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Posted

Don’t try to frighten us with your mathematician's ways, Arcanaville… you sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped us conjure up those stolen DPS charts, or given you clairvoyance enough to beat down the giant mon-*GAGGGHH*


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Don’t try to frighten us with your mathematician's ways, Arcanaville… you sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped us conjure up those stolen DPS charts, or given you clairvoyance enough to beat down the giant mon-*GAGGGHH*
This ... concept build is now the ultimate power in the universe?

(I suggest we use it.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

You know, I thought I could put that in perspective though.

I love dark melee as a single target set. It has incredible single target damage a wonderful self heal, an endurance recovery power, and all kinds of -tohit debuffs with a little AoE added in.

I still don't "like" dark melee though.

Doesn't mean I won't play the heck out of it either :P


 

Posted

DM was always my favourite melee set until the animation changes hit claws, for some reason I'd never really invested in claws before. I know DM doesn't have the AoE of other sets but I've always liked being the one to run up to the biggest and toughest looking foe and have at it when I play melee.

That's not to say I don't AoE melee sets, but if a TF or Trial is looming and I decide to pull out a scrapper it's always DM or Claws I go for. I know my Fire/Shield could do just as good a job but I don't see many other DM/WP or Claw/Invs on trials (on my home sever of defiant read Claw/WP and DM/SR which I did see plenty of others of cause pre-ios DM/SR was good for standing toe to toe with AVs and Claw/WP was simply the most fun thing I levelled.)

If I thought I could afford another Invul build I'd probably make a DM/Inv but my cheapest inv came out at 2billion. For some reason it isn't a set I can build a cheap version, it can start of cheap but by the time I end up actually making it happen a lot more cost has seeped in some how.

Hell I'd love a Fire or Elec melee invul scrapper too, its just a set that can cover lots of holes well and you don't need to worry about synergy as much as others, DA can be good but I find I need something to break the alpha or my endurance dies fast. SR works really well with the top up heal from DM but without it I feel weak. Obviously they're gaps that can be filled but its nice to have a secondary that doesn't need that to make it powerful.

For primaries I just tend to dislike sets I find ugly and Broad Sword. I dont find broad sword ugly but it was my test for solo levelling speed during a double XP weekend a while back and while I found it levelled quickly it was the dullest 16 hours I've spent in game. This was pre AE which kinda changed that with being able to build maps to suit your alt.......... I've really wandered off topic now, you shouldn't let me do that


"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
DM was always my favourite melee set until the animation changes hit claws, for some reason I'd never really invested in claws before. I know DM doesn't have the AoE of other sets but I've always liked being the one to run up to the biggest and toughest looking foe and have at it when I play melee.

That's not to say I don't AoE melee sets, but if a TF or Trial is looming and I decide to pull out a scrapper it's always DM or Claws I go for. I know my Fire/Shield could do just as good a job but I don't see many other DM/WP or Claw/Invs on trials (on my home sever of defiant read Claw/WP and DM/SR which I did see plenty of others of cause pre-ios DM/SR was good for standing toe to toe with AVs and Claw/WP was simply the most fun thing I levelled.)

If I thought I could afford another Invul build I'd probably make a DM/Inv but my cheapest inv came out at 2billion. For some reason it isn't a set I can build a cheap version, it can start of cheap but by the time I end up actually making it happen a lot more cost has seeped in some how.

Hell I'd love a Fire or Elec melee invul scrapper too, its just a set that can cover lots of holes well and you don't need to worry about synergy as much as others, DA can be good but I find I need something to break the alpha or my endurance dies fast. SR works really well with the top up heal from DM but without it I feel weak. Obviously they're gaps that can be filled but its nice to have a secondary that doesn't need that to make it powerful.

For primaries I just tend to dislike sets I find ugly and Broad Sword. I dont find broad sword ugly but it was my test for solo levelling speed during a double XP weekend a while back and while I found it levelled quickly it was the dullest 16 hours I've spent in game. This was pre AE which kinda changed that with being able to build maps to suit your alt.......... I've really wandered off topic now, you shouldn't let me do that
Claws is probably my favorite set as well. The mix of single target and AoE seems just right to me and spin is absolutely awesome. I have a DM/SR that I like, but haven't played her in quite a while. I had a DM/DA that just didn't work out for me, but that was before IOs. I love my Kat/DA, but I don't know if I'd revisit a DM/DA.

Now that my Kat/DA is reaching his final stages of constructing his build, I'm eyeing my next character and have been considering the DM/Inv as it has been suggested multiple times as the most durable scrapper.

I've been fussing with a DM/Elec in mids over and over seeing if I can build something comparable. I really like the resists on Elec and the added AoE capablility from lightning field. Lightning field with shadow maul wouldn't be so bad. Even if you just focused on bosses and lts. most of the minions would just die from the incidental damage from lightning field. I had also pondered the endurance drain capability of power sink and lightning field together. Maybe even with the Ion judgement later on.

However, the biggest downfall is the defense capablility with elec. It really only seems reasonable or only possible to softcap one type or position (Haven't treally tried the latter). I would think that the healing capability on DM/Elec would be more reliable than DM/Invul just due to the fact that you can use energize quite more often than dull pain, though the HP boost from dull pain is extremely valuable. I've found that I really do prefer solid non-haste reliant builds though. It's a tough choice as far as compromising survivability, ultility, and ultimately fun.

I enjoy having near indestructible characters. Surviving insurmountable odds is incredibly fun. I recently had one of my better experiences with my Kat/Dark against dozens upon dozen of rikti in LGTF. They just couldn't hurt me no matter what they through at me or how many there were. Sadly, my teammates were dropping left and right and there wasn't much I could do about it. I've considered going Tank, but my Stone/Stone while fun was horribly boring simply, because it took me eons to kill anything.


 

Posted

Elec on a tank is a lot of fun if you had considered a tank, and just softcapped to S&L is good enough for most of the game. Something like Elec/Mace would be a good balance of survivability and damage.

Not tried elec armour on a scrapper yet, only on a tank and brute I do think the lack of +HP is my main turn off in the set. With sets I can get more regen on an Invul with DP up than I can on an Elec with Energise running thanks to the higher HP.

Rikti on an Elec are stupidly easy, from past experience. My Elec/Fire tank without any IOs found the LGTF a walk in the park.

Will be looking for ideas on a new alt once my Mace/DA hits 50 and am thinking of trying Energy Armour or Elec Armour as they're the only secondaries that I've yet to 50 on a scrapper maybe I can put aside the HP worries and give it a go


"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"