Time to retire TOs?
I feel like the answer should be yes, but then again I've level through the sub-22 levels SO QUICKLY with my last 12 characters or so, I don't even bother to slot anything until then. So I can't personally find any use for the stupid things, but I don't know if true newbs still do.
I haven't done the new Sewer Trial yet, and had no idea until this post that low level SO's actually drop from it. If the Devs are going to let us get SO drops in the low levels, might as well take the next logical step and just make them the standard for the entire game instead of level 22 on up. It would have the advantage of simplifying the system and making the lower levels less tedious for certain specs.
![](http://avatars.cohtitan.com/signatures/cit/u134255.png)
I've wanted a simpler enhancement system for years, so, signed.
While we're at it, can we remove the origin requirement from SOs as well, so any origin character can use any SO enhancement?
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
As far as I've been able to tell, Death From Below is the only place you can get SO's pre-22. Of course, you run the trial 7-10 times (depending on team sizes) and you're nearly level 22 anyway.
Death From Below is the new powerlevel - the official answer to old-fashioned sewer teams and AE farms. You can't judge ordinary content alongside it.
It also serves an important purpose for the free and premium players who don't have inventions and therefore don't receive salvage: it gives them a source of income before and in addition to tip missions. Otherwise, it's tough to depend on looted enhancements when they hardly drop any more.
I've wanted a simpler enhancement system for years, so, signed.
While we're at it, can we remove the origin requirement from SOs as well, so any origin character can use any SO enhancement? |
The old method 'worked', as in wasn't totally broken' seven years ago.
Now it's just a hassle that gets in the way of actually having fun.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Faultline store I believe sells "some" SOs pre level 22. Of course, you have to do Penelope's arc to unlock the store.
And what drives me nuts, and has since day 1, is all the different names. I usually go mutant just because the names are easy. And I don't think I have EVER used TOs.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
I think that having two levels of enhancements would be fine. Currently the TO's really don't provide much benefit, since they're weak and there are few slots at these levels. But they're useful as an introduction to enhancements because they aren't limited by origin. DO's are a strange hybrid, since it doesn't make that much sense that two origins will share an enhancement. I think it would be good to drop DO's and upgrade TO's to provide half as much as SO's. In any case, I think the trial shouldn't drop SO's if these aren't otherwise available.
That said, this is just the solution that's closest to what's available now. I think it would be better to make the dropped inventions similar to basic IO's. The idea of having enhancements change effectiveness relative to the character's level is bizarre. You character ends up becoming weaker as the level grows up, then suddenly stronger as you reach 5 level higher and can buy new enhancements. How IO's work is a lot more reasonable, as they provide the same benefit, and higher level ones provide more benefit.
It's possible to create a hybrid system, such as single original IO style enhancements, just change SO's to work like IO's in terms of what they provide, but still have them origin dependent.
I introduced my ex to the game, and when we played together she would go buy TOs every 2 or 3 levels. I tried to explain to her how the enhancements effectiveness worked, I tried to explain about the existence of DOs and SOs and how much better they were, and I tried pointing out how fast we were leveling up, that she was wasting inf. But she just kept stocking up on TOs.
Then when she found a DO store somewhere around level 15, she complained she couldn't afford them. /facepalm
Then again, this is the same woman I had to speak with for over an hour (not exaggerating) on the phone walking her through the process of crafting a jetpack temp power.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
It's the unnecessarily exotic names that get me. Having to keep right-clicking on everything in stores to find out which SO or DO I am actually looking at is quite frustrating. I think it would help if each one had a subtitle, e.g:
Mercurial Theorem (Recharge Speed)
And yes, I have that one memorized, but like Sherlock Holmes there is only so much room in my brain to put stuff, and learning new things pushes old things out... which is my excuse for forgetting birthdays, anniversaries etc
It's the unnecessarily exotic names that get me. Having to keep right-clicking on everything in stores to find out which SO or DO I am actually looking at is quite frustrating. I think it would help if each one had a subtitle, e.g:
Mercurial Theorem (Recharge Speed) And yes, I have that one memorized, but like Sherlock Holmes there is only so much room in my brain to put stuff, and learning new things pushes old things out... which is my excuse for forgetting birthdays, anniversaries etc |
Well they used to display the info box on rollover, which made things much easier. But that featured got eaten by the Bug Monster at some point and never recovered.
Also : Yes. Get rid of TOs, they're useless. DO's from level 1 up and SOs at level 17 (level 20 ones) please.
Part of me wants to wave my cane and tell you all to get off my lawn after reminiscing how I use to walk to school in the snow, up hill, both ways.
The other part of me says a simpler, less confusing, less run around to the various stores to sell for the best price gaming standard is a bit old, considering all the other streamlining they have added in with Issue 21.
But the Freemies will still need something to slot, something to spend their Inf on and the staggered TO/DO/SO along with merging, ++ to -- scaling will keep them busy between missions since they won't have the traditional dropped loot in terms of armor and weapons that fantasy MMOs have. And since Freemies won't get recipe and salvage drops, you got to give them a reason to stop grinding every third mission to sell.
However removing the origin aspect does subtract a bit from the flavor of the game as each store catering to an origin with their Acc DO/SO named differently from one another. What would be next to go? Origin specific contacts? Origin specific threats and critters, which drops origin specific enhancements? Tech Vs Magic salvage drops? Let us try to hold onto at least some of the unique flavor for this genre of MMO and not simply slap basic enhancements in a generic white box with a barcode.
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Part of me wants to wave my cane and tell you all to get off my lawn after reminiscing how I use to walk to school in the snow, up hill, both ways.
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The other part of me says a simpler, less confusing, less run around to the various stores to sell for the best price gaming standard is a bit old, considering all the other streamlining they have added in with Issue 21. But the Freemies will still need something to slot, something to spend their Inf on and the staggered TO/DO/SO along with merging, ++ to -- scaling will keep them busy between missions since they won't have the traditional dropped loot in terms of armor and weapons that fantasy MMOs have. And since Freemies won't get recipe and salvage drops, you got to give them a reason to stop grinding every third mission to sell. |
However removing the origin aspect does subtract a bit from the flavor of the game as each store catering to an origin with their Acc DO/SO named differently from one another. What would be next to go? Origin specific contacts? Origin specific threats and critters, which drops origin specific enhancements? Tech Vs Magic salvage drops? Let us try to hold onto at least some of the unique flavor for this genre of MMO and not simply slap basic enhancements in a generic white box with a barcode. |
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
However removing the origin aspect does subtract a bit from the flavor of the game as each store catering to an origin with their Acc DO/SO named differently from one another. What would be next to go? Origin specific contacts? Origin specific threats and critters, which drops origin specific enhancements? Tech Vs Magic salvage drops? Let us try to hold onto at least some of the unique flavor for this genre of MMO and not simply slap basic enhancements in a generic white box with a barcode.
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It should be possible to do something that functions like IO's but is single origin and can be combined. Make them a little weaker than IO's, and they will function more or less like they currently do but without the ups and downs and having all your enhancements become useless unless you replace all of them every 5 levels.
I agree that selling to different stores is a hassle. Frankly for VIP's I don't see why you'd sell to stores, or if you do go to particular ones to maximise inf. It's possible to get enough inf just selling on the market. If for free players it's still necessary to get the maximum price, the easiest solution would be to have all stores buy at the same price. That would make it easy to sell, but buying will still require travelling to the relevant store.
I don't think anything needs to be removed. What needs to happen is for all enhancement stores to buy all enhancements at the same value, and for those buy-only vendors in the Shadow Shard and Croatoa to stop buying at a tenfold ripoff. Once all stores buy for the same amount, there will be no runaround. This is already true for stores in the Rikti War Zone and Cimerora, there's no reason it can't be true for all stores.
What also needs to happen is enhancement names cleanup. Leave their graphics as they are, but call them something like Mutation: Damage Increase or Science: Stun/Disorient/Something Duration Increase. Oh, and speaking of "something," take the time to standardise enhancement aspect names. I don't know under what logic "entangle" equals "slow," but please pick one name and stick to it.
I don't really see need for more to happen with enhancements.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think anything needs to be removed. What needs to happen is for all enhancement stores to buy all enhancements at the same value, and for those buy-only vendors in the Shadow Shard and Croatoa to stop buying at a tenfold ripoff. Once all stores buy for the same amount, there will be no runaround. This is already true for stores in the Rikti War Zone and Cimerora, there's no reason it can't be true for all stores.
What also needs to happen is enhancement names cleanup. Leave their graphics as they are, but call them something like Mutation: Damage Increase or Science: Stun/Disorient/Something Duration Increase. Oh, and speaking of "something," take the time to standardise enhancement aspect names. I don't know under what logic "entangle" equals "slow," but please pick one name and stick to it. I don't really see need for more to happen with enhancements. |
Does anyone still worry about the fact they could run 1.5 miles to the Mutant Shop in order to sell those two SOs for slightly more?
Treaties to the contrary or not.
/agree with Bill.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
It's the unnecessarily exotic names that get me. Having to keep right-clicking on everything in stores to find out which SO or DO I am actually looking at is quite frustrating. I think it would help if each one had a subtitle, e.g:
Mercurial Theorem (Recharge Speed) And yes, I have that one memorized, but like Sherlock Holmes there is only so much room in my brain to put stuff, and learning new things pushes old things out... which is my excuse for forgetting birthdays, anniversaries etc |
A thousand times this. The weird names drive me insane to the point of avoiding of filling slots with unusual DOs and SOs, because I hate hunting for them. I have more or less memorized the color and locations of stuff like Accuracy and Damage. The "cute" names for SO and DOs are mostly senseless anyway (How many "Gloves" am I supposed to be wearing?" "Grenades"... strapped to a War Mace?) It seems like when I first started the game you at least got a pop-up explaining the SO or DO when you rolled over it. Right clicking it all one by one is extremely frustrating.
What needs to happen is for all enhancement stores to buy all enhancements at the same value, and for those buy-only vendors in the Shadow Shard and Croatoa to stop buying at a tenfold ripoff. Once all stores buy for the same amount, there will be no runaround. This is already true for stores in the Rikti War Zone and Cimerora, there's no reason it can't be true for all stores.
What also needs to happen is enhancement names cleanup. Leave their graphics as they are, but call them something like Mutation: Damage Increase or Science: Stun/Disorient/Something Duration Increase. Oh, and speaking of "something," take the time to standardise enhancement aspect names. I don't know under what logic "entangle" equals "slow," but please pick one name and stick to it. |
I don't worry about it, but out of habit I still do it. It bugs me that some places simply screw you over.
While we're at it, can we remove the origin requirement from SOs as well, so any origin character can use any SO enhancement?
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![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I still do, memories of days when I was scraping for every influence and a costume contest win was 10k still in my mind. These days I have billions of influence but I'm like my grandparents who lived through the Depression and spent the rest of their days with the refrigerator light bulb unscrewed to save money.
Well, then they wouldn't be SOs, now would they? They'd just be... "Os"
![]() I still do, memories of days when I was scraping for every influence and a costume contest win was 10k still in my mind. These days I have billions of influence but I'm like my grandparents who lived through the Depression and spent the rest of their days with the refrigerator light bulb unscrewed to save money. |
Erm, they knew it goes off when the fridge is closed, right?
Remove Dual Origin, make TO's as effective as DOs and continue them to DO levels.
That way you have enhancements that anyone can use that do decent-ish numbers until SO level. And then you specialise in your origin-specific stuff, in fluff/story regards.
Makes sense to me.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Remove Dual Origin, make TO's as effective as DOs and continue them to DO levels.
That way you have enhancements that anyone can use that do decent-ish numbers until SO level. And then you specialise in your origin-specific stuff, in fluff/story regards. Makes sense to me. |
I was chatting with a genuine new player the other day and remembering how confusing all this stuff really can be. Doesn't help, does detract, remove TOs.
The entire old-school enhancement system should be shot in the head and buried in a shallow grave outside Terlingua. IOs make it unnecessary.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I'm approaching four years of playing this game and I still use TOs when leveling a low level character. The amount of swinging (or shooting) and missing I end up doing at levels 6-11 without them just drives me bonkers. And with the markets I'm swimming in inf anyway, so there's no need to save for DOs and SOs. The only thing I would change would be the labeling on DOs and SOs.
AE Arcs: #10482 N00b Rescue Duty, #164100 The Four Treasures of the Tuatha De Dannan
(And possibly DOs?)
No, this has nothing to do with the invention system. But between the Death From Below raids, Gms showing up, etc - I seem to see my tray filling with a LOT of low-level SOs.
Now, they're decent cash - but what's someone going to think when they use SOs from (say) level 6-9 from the trial, then find they can only go and *buy* TOs (at what, a quarter the strength is it) or DOs (half strength) to replace them? We shouldn't hit a point where we have no choice butto stop *down* in power as we level up because we have no direct replacements for the enhancements, after all. That's rather counterintuitive (if not disappointing or frustrating.)
Of course, that also leads (somewhat) to a problem with common IOs and low level sets - as they'd also be lower level than the SOs, and I don't think the "Doesn't expire" would be enough of an offset (comparing a level 10-15 common to an SO) to make them worth while.
The plus side for doing this, as well, would be an INF sink... SOs are more expensive (yes, sell for more, too,) so what *would* be going for inventions, etc. can be burned on SOs.