Time Overpowered
By
Adamant,
Posted on: 2011-09-15 08:56 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Actually, I think I called it the love child of Trick Arrow, Rad, and Pain. And the reason TA is in there is partially because of how it plays, but partially because I see parallels to TA in terms of perception. It was originally seen as a set that, like you say above, tries to do too many things but none of them well. And then over time people started to realize it actually did a lot of things well, when you used it properly. It just required a slightly different mindset to extract the most from the set. And there are special synergies that aren't obvious to start. But today, you aren't laughed at for playing an Ill/TA, say: that's considered a very powerful combination.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Then: "It just tries to do too many things at once and excels at none of them."
Later: "Oh wait, when you add all those elements together it's actually quite good." |
I think TM will chart a similar course. One day, someone is going to say they play Ill/TM, and people will ask why they paired Illusion with TM, not the other way around.
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Exactly this. New powersets tend to either slide towards uselessness or slide towards overpowered. Comparing it to Willpower in that respect as well if fair, I think. Willpower is a very good set, much like Time, but it isn't grossly overpowered. It's just well-rounded.
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Originally Posted by Edana
Time is the willpower of support sets. It can do everything in that list but it doesn't do them to the same level as more specialised choices. Regen debuffs peak at 150% instead of the 500% or higher found in some other sets, a boss level control from stacking 2 powers is hardly a new ability and in order to use half of the defensive debuffs you have to go into melee range - a significant trade off. Slowed Response can beat Melt Armour's debuff values on targets hit with Time Crawl which is single target and takes time to place, especially if you want to tag more than one target before debuffing. On the other hand Freezing Rain beats both sets of debuff values, has a shorter recharge than either, also does slow and knockdown and is available at 16...
Not overpowered, just has a lot of potential. |
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If there is anything still capable of mezzing you when you have 8 controllers of any kind on a team......well.......you need to find some better players. Even an AV will be consistently held just from the ST hold being spammed on it by 8 people at once.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If they're not constantly mezzed. :/
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Every set has its performance questioned in beta. 
I wish the threads about Shield Charge were still available for the LOLs.
Oh yeah, something just occurred to me.
Assuming Farsight stacks (no reason why it shouldn't), 8 Time Manipulation Defenders all running Maneuvers should be able to consistently sit at the defense HARD cap. Which is just over 200% defense I believe.
8 x 8% = 64% defense
+
8 x 22% = 176% defense.
That should be more than enough to hit the defense hard cap, which I believe is actually somewhat lower for non-melee ATs.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Overpowered alrready.. Does anyone know the post number of the usual underpowered topic too?
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They would. But 8 Kinetic Defenders could do it 20 levels earlier with 400% Recovery as well to make it really ridiculous. Buff/debuff stacking in this game has always been pretty crazy. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I dunno, not to the same extent. Wouldn't 8 times have 400% recharge at all times, just from the Tier 9s stacking?
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I think the only thing different about Time is because is has such a varied back of tricks, when you stack all of them 8 times it becomes fairly ludicrous. But I doubt we'll be seeing it happen that often. How many all VEAT teams do you see nowadays compared to when they launched? I imagine Time will be no different.
What is this talk of stacking Time? You are thinking too literally.
1 Time, 1 Kinetic. If any team member ever struggles in a mission post level 40 [EDIT: said 35 at first, but lets make an allowance for Time secondaries ], they should be forced to delete their characters and cancel their accounts immediately.
I know TM makes Posi TF a little more difficult.
We had two TM's in our group as we approached the last mish. The one with the clones.
One of the members had dropped (not one of the TM's). When one of your team members drop, the game knows someone is missing, but doesn't know the missing person's build. So for that mish, the game will create another clone of one of the existing players.
So they had three TM's to our two.
It took us four team wipes to kill one of the TM clones (after each wipe, we returned from the hosp, with full insp trays. But by that time, all of the clones had been fully healed). One of the TM's kept saying, "focus your attacks on my clone!" It took us two team wipes to realize that she had two clones :P
Another two team wipes to kill the second TM clone. Then we able to finally finish it, since now WE had two TM's to their one.
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True, but in the case of Willpower the *vast majority* opinion was that it sucked, not just that it wasn't great. In the case of TM, the majority opinion (to a lesser degree) was that it was "average." Even by the devs own admission TM was aiming to be a competitor to Kin and Rad, two of the sets considered among the most powerful. I just think they outdid themselves a little.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Every set has its performance questioned in beta.
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So, the anti-TA.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Then: "It just tries to do too many things at once and excels at none of them."
Later: "Oh wait, when you add all those elements together it's actually quite good." |
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My very first impression of Time Manipulation was, "WHOAH. REALLY?"|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
True, but in the case of Willpower the *vast majority* opinion was that it sucked, not just that it wasn't great. In the case of TM, the majority opinion (to a lesser degree) was that it was "average." Even by the devs own admission TM was aiming to be a competitor to Kin and Rad, two of the sets considered among the most powerful. I just think they outdid themselves a little.
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My second impression of Time Manipulation was, "A spawn of +2 outcasts can't kill me when I haven't even summoned my demons."
I still would happily trade the first three powers of Pain Domination for just Temporal Mending. It would do my mercs so much more good.
As it stands, I might have to just retire my mecs/pain and play /time MMs from now on.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Having played both a Poison Corruptor and a Time Manipulation Corruptor to rather high levels at this point, it definitely feels like Time Manipulation is WAY overpowered.
Sometimes powers look awesome on paper, and I was curious if Time was filled with those types of skills that drop your jaw in the real numbers screen then disappoint during gameplay. Nope. Everything in time is probably more potent than it appears in real numbers because of the synergy available within the set.
I'm not sure how I feel about Time at this point. My Poison character is most likely the one that I will use long term, but that is because I his costume and background story are more fully fleshed out. If I cared anything about performance-- particularly end game IO performance-- I would take Time in a heartbeat. I have no idea how some of these skills made it out of Beta while a set like Poison was ported with relatively minor changes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
True, but in the case of Willpower the *vast majority* opinion was that it sucked, not just that it wasn't great. In the case of TM, the majority opinion (to a lesser degree) was that it was "average." Even by the devs own admission TM was aiming to be a competitor to Kin and Rad, two of the sets considered among the most powerful. I just think they outdid themselves a little.
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Time Manipulation brings up a sort of philosophical question for me. If Force Field could self-cast its shields, would it be considered a high powered set? Because Time is more survivable than that. I can see no logistical argument for Force Fielders not being allowed to soft cap themselves on SOs given Time's implementation, and that includes being able to use Power Boost. The fact that Time Manipulation does this while retaining what is among the highest possible Recharge values in the game and an extremely powerful heal has me thinking this game really has no standards of "overpowered" left to salvage anyway.
In any case, it was kind of a headscratcher to keep with the conversation that simultaneously claimed "IOs aren't considered in game balance" and "well everyone is soft capped to every position anyway," as if those two conditions can somehow can exist in the same justification without causing a logical implosion.
To the extent that this set is "balanced," people are unlikely to sit on Broadcast trying to recruit a Time Manipulator specifically. But people also don't sit around asking for specific Armor sets, and that is what this is: one of the best armor sets in the game, which happens to include some debuffs and buffs on the side (some of them quite good).
[Note that the Oedipus Tex character himself is now an Earth/Time Controller. Just because I think its overpowered doesnt mean I won't exploit it for what its worth.
I do look forward to soft capping in incarnate content assuming I stick with my current build plan.]
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Time doesn't have mez protection.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Time Manipulation brings up a sort of philosophical question for me. If Force Field could self-cast its shields, would it be considered a high powered set? Because Time is more survivable than that.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Time doesn't have mez protection.
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I will.
Anyway, Force Field doesnt have heals, -ToHit, slows, perception debuff resistance, slow resistance, or regen debuff resistance. One time recently I actually got hit by a very large -Recharge debuff and actually countered it with Chrono Shift, zeroing it out.
And Time's defenses don't cave like Force Fields do when there are Sleeps in play. I actually think I may be still be soft capped in normal content even if I do get mezzed, assuming I cap incarnate with bonuses.
EDIT: Forgot to add that Time would have way better Psi defense than Force Field as well even if Force Field could self cast shields, because the ally shields do not provide that.
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No, but they ask for Kins and Rads pretty often.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
To the extent that this set is "balanced," people are unlikely to sit on Broadcast trying to recruit a Time Manipulator specifically. But people also don't sit around asking for specific Armor sets,
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I think time is a very good set, but this thread is full of people comparing Time to sets that are largely considered under performing (like Forcefields & Poison).
I don't believe this set is stronger than Kin, Rad, Dark or Cold.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I don't believe this set is stronger than Kin, Rad, Dark or Cold.
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On the sliding scale this game provides I don't think its possible to call anything overpowered. There is simply no standard. When it "it can soft cap to all positions on SOs" doesn't even raise eyebrows it's kind of a shrug what can you really say situation. So how about giving Force Field those self cast shields?
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I'd say it raised eyebrows, with people calling for nerfs to Farsight or buffs that stop PBU to work with Farsight.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
On the sliding scale this game provides I don't think its possible to call anything overpowered. There is simply no standard. When it "it can soft cap to all positions on SOs" doesn't even raise eyebrows it's kind of a shrug what can you really say situation. So how about giving Force Field those self cast shields?
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I was actually okay with the adding of resists to Farsight if it was more than 5% to all or a few types. Like a decent amount as per Shadow Fall and the like.
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Been playing my Fire/Time Corr a lot these past few days.
Verdict: Time is good. Really, really good. Even without PB Farsight.
Distortion Field, (what I first thought would be one of the stinkers in the set), is a wonderful trick with 5 Unbreakable Constraints and a Lockdown proc in it. The real hold in the power itself is nothing to write home about, but that token hold opens up a wonderful world of slotting shenanigans.
Time Crawl is probably my least used power. With DF and TJ going, I never touch Time Crawl except for AVs. In which case I use it in conjunction with Time Stop, but the -regen is still a little weak for my tastes.
I can forgive that though, given the rest of the set is so good.
I mean uh, this set is garbage. I'm a VIP and this is what I get? What a slap in the face, et cetera.
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Admittedly, Poison is still pretty underpowered, even after the devs tweaked it several times. But that is a thread for another day.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Having played both a Poison Corruptor and a Time Manipulation Corruptor to rather high levels at this point, it definitely feels like Time Manipulation is WAY overpowered.
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FF doesn't have a psi hole per se since it provides positional def -- its only real weakness is a handful of mind control powers that don't have positions.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
EDIT: Forgot to add that Time would have way better Psi defense than Force Field as well even if Force Field could self cast shields, because the ally shields do not provide that.
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That said ... Time is a far more flexible set than FF and will, IME, always bring something to a team whereas FF can be marginalised on teams which already have significant mitigation.
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Fire/Time corruptors are very very nasty and fun to play.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Been playing my Fire/Time Corr a lot these past few days.
Verdict: Time is good. Really, really good. Even without PB Farsight. Distortion Field, (what I first thought would be one of the stinkers in the set), is a wonderful trick with 5 Unbreakable Constraints and a Lockdown proc in it. The real hold in the power itself is nothing to write home about, but that token hold opens up a wonderful world of slotting shenanigans. Time Crawl is probably my least used power. With DF and TJ going, I never touch Time Crawl except for AVs. In which case I use it in conjunction with Time Stop, but the -regen is still a little weak for my tastes. I can forgive that though, given the rest of the set is so good. I mean uh, this set is garbage. I'm a VIP and this is what I get? What a slap in the face, et cetera. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I didn't mention anything about overpowered or not.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
On the sliding scale this game provides I don't think its possible to call anything overpowered. There is simply no standard. When it "it can soft cap to all positions on SOs" doesn't even raise eyebrows it's kind of a shrug what can you really say situation. So how about giving Force Field those self cast shields?
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My comment was that Time is not necessarily more powerful than Rad, Kin, Dark or Cold. I still stand by that.
I have no problem with sets like FF being reviewed for some kind of performance improvement. More good sets is good for everyone.
Time Manipulation, like Willpower before it, had its performance questioned in beta (although not to the same degree as Willpower), the devs seem to think its perfectly fine, and I think within six months to a year tops people will just play it and only occasionally wonder what possessed the devs to give it to us, just like Willpower. The notion that it is anything other than one of the best buff/debuff sets we have, even when compared to dark, rad, and kin, will simply evaporate.
Later: "Oh wait, when you add all those elements together it's actually quite good."