Discussion: Divided We Fall


2short2care

 

Posted

I personally think Tyrant is the epitome of the dark side Vigilante alignment.

"Only I can protect the world."

In theory he is heroic. His basic intentions are the safety of his people and the stability if his world. Very Blue intentions. At least from what we have seen.

In practice however, he falls pretty close to the Red alignments. He's like a Vigilante who has done a lot of the Vig -> Vill tips, but has always stopped before making the jump.

Like a Vigilante, on the surface, he's still heroic.

Assuming what we have learned is true, he's somewhat heroic.

But I don't think he's tortured.

His ultimate sin is that he has no faith in anyone but himself. That is what makes him an Antagonist, and that is what will be his downfall.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightErrant View Post
Assuming what we have learned is true, he's somewhat heroic.
Mass-murder, torture, brainwashing, slavery and multi-dimensional conquest aren't heroic in any way at all.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
They're an alien force that apparently use Kheldians as fuel for their starships - they've been floating around im the lroe for a while now, and were once planned to be an enemy group that would be so powerful players would need the invention system to fight them, and they wouldn't be able to solo them - that basic idea seems to still be around, and the Battalion are being lined up as a threat even more dangerous than Tyrant and the loyalists - so it looks like we'll need the Incarnate powers to be able to fight them, rather than the invention system.

emphasis added is mine. Though honestly if they do that they can't be that bad.


Shadowy Presence - Absolutely, positively worse than playing a Kheldian... --Myrmydon

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightErrant View Post
I personally think Tyrant is the epitome of the dark side Vigilante alignment.

"Only I can protect the world."

In theory he is heroic. His basic intentions are the safety of his people and the stability if his world. Very Blue intentions. At least from what we have seen.

In practice however, he falls pretty close to the Red alignments. He's like a Vigilante who has done a lot of the Vig -> Vill tips, but has always stopped before making the jump.
If Cole followed the game's definition of vigilante morality, Praetoria would be a smoking crater.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
He still wants to conquer us, and will exploit any opportunity to do it. And hey look, here's an opportunity!
It's another one of those Devouring Earth threats that always seem to come along at useful times during his career


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Mass-murder.
The resistance, check

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torture
Resistance again

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brainwashing
resistance yet again

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slavery and multi-dimensional conquest
Give Scott enough time. He may not be AS evil as Cole but he is getting there.


Shadowy Presence - Absolutely, positively worse than playing a Kheldian... --Myrmydon

 

Posted

This might be a good time to psot Vanessa DeVore's updated bio from I21:

Quote:
"The mysterious Vanessa DeVore is a powerful psychic who formed the Carnival of Light from the desperate remains of powerful sorcerers and renegade telepaths who saw Emperor Cole for the evil he truly is. It is her mental powers which masks the Resistance from Praetor Tilman and the Seers. She helped form the Resistance from scattered and aimless groups opposed to Emperor Cole's totalitarian regime. She chose Calvin Scott to lead the violence prone Crusaders into battle with the Praetorian usurpers, and on the other hand she has carefully cultivated the Wardens to overthrown the empire from within and ultimately take over."
It doesn't seem to present Tyrant and the loyalists in a very good light


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Emperor Cole is the man. Hands down.

Give us incarnate content to fight on the side of Cole please!


 

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Originally Posted by TheProtector View Post
Emperor Cole is the man. Hands down.

Give us incarnate content to fight on the side of Cole please!
This would kick pancakes!


 

Posted

While I can appreciate a decent story as much as the next person, I'd still much rather get an actual release date on i21 than a story to placate everyone.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestyna View Post
While I can appreciate a decent story as much as the next person, I'd still much rather get an actual release date on i21 than a story to placate everyone.
It's just setting the scene for another invasion event to test the server upgrades ahead of the surge of players coming in with I21


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I sure that must comfort his hundreds of thousands of victims that died for "the greater good".

Funny, I've said the same thing about the Resistance...

( I for one am looking forward to the iTrial where we storm their base of operations.)


City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.

R.I.P.
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Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Mass-murder, torture, brainwashing, slavery and multi-dimensional conquest aren't heroic in any way at all.
Did you read the post at all, or did you stop there?

His basic goals (protecting the people, ensuring stability, keeping the Hamidon from chomping on the world) are heroic.

The means of achieving those goals (Mass-murder, torture, brainwashing, slavery, and multi-dimensional conquest) are not. Those are decidedly villainous.

Hence why he is at the red side of the vigilante spectrum, IMO.

Blatantly evil acts for what he believes is "good".

I'm not saying "let's all hold hands and be friends with the *******".

I'm exploring character development. :P


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daio View Post
I'm new to the whole story discussion thing here, despite playing CoH for years. But someone alluded to something early in the thread that nobody has really touched on.

That short story implied, very subtly, that Cole, or someone connected to Cole, has the capability to modify memories. Who is to say that Cole didn't implant the idea in Duray's mind (omgz, inception!), of using the Hamidon Seeds - then in front of his own troops, pin the blame firming on Duray, making Cole look like the level-headed benevolent leader to those who follow him, while still getting the more murky methods of attacking Primal Earth that he wanted.

He wipes the memory on Duray, Duray never is the better to what's happened, and Cole gets to keep playing the role of of "savior", while going about it in much more evil ways.

-Daio
Yep, that's what I was suggesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenz View Post
Praetorian DE are ten times worse.

And twenty percent cooler.


"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me

@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn

 

Posted

I thought that was pretty well written for something done "off the cuff." Presumably, with the unexpected delays in releasing i21, someone wisely decided a live server event would be a nice way to calm things down, as well as test the new hardware. I'm all for this.

I have two observations, one negative and one positive.

***

However, as this thread shows, it's little more than an opportunity for the Content Police to call the developers horrible writers, for reasons that still aren't too clear to me. Aside from one prominent exception , posters have repeatedly claimed they want "nuanced" characters with realistic motivations and that "black-and-white morality is dumb and childish," essentially a "City of Wild Cards" vibe. This is exactly what we've received with the Tyrant/Praetoria storyline. Tyrant, far from being evil for evil's sake, seems more like a thinly-veiled political allegory, and the writers have endeavored to give him some sort of motivation while still portraying him as an unmistakable villain.

I understand why people dislike the Incarnate backstory, but I don't really get the hate for the Praetorian storyline, as expressed. Yes, I see flaws with it (I consider its entire premise, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!", to be short-sightedly intolerant at best and appallingly savage at worst), but I don't understand others' complaints about it.

***

Personally, the thing I love about all this is that Hamidon, my favorite archvillain, plays such a major role in it. Prior to the Going Rogue era, I was seeing more and more posters argue that the Devouring Earth were not only unthreatening, but also not just unvillainous but actually heroic (apparently because they "clean up" environmental disasters while mutating and dominating the minds of bystanders). Fortunately, Going Rogue has apparently changed that. While Praetorian Hamidon isn't really given the depth of characterization that he could have (he's a fanatic so self-absorbed that he wants to literally remake the world in his own image), at least he's being portrayed as a serious threat. I'd been concerned since I first read about Praetorian Devouring Earth that they'd ultimately prove to be just puppets of the Cole regime, rather than the monstrous, terrifying fiends they ought to be. Happily, that doesn't seem to be the case, at least not all the time.

As long as we aren't presented with a scenario where we have to help the poor, victimized Devouring Earth fight the Praetorians, then I'm happy.


"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"

Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers

A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
However, as this thread shows, it's little more than an opportunity for the Content Police to call the developers horrible writers, for reasons that still aren't too clear to me.
And as the devs just keep on doing the same enjoyable stuff, regardless of the silly criticism, I think it's safe to assume that they're sensibly ignoring it


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyll View Post
( I for one am looking forward to the iTrial where we storm their base of operations.)
We don't need to - they're already letting us use their bases for the hospitals on the Trials


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestyna View Post
While I can appreciate a decent story as much as the next person, I'd still much rather get an actual release date on i21 than a story to placate everyone.
They have set a date.. It's SOON. (Whatever Soon means. Presumably it means we have no idea )


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemodand View Post
Actually, they are 31% worse. They hit 31% more often than Primal Devouring Earth do if you are at 45% Defense.
Primal Devouring Earth do too after level 45. They took Focused Accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
However, as this thread shows, it's little more than an opportunity for the Content Police to call the developers horrible writers, for reasons that still aren't too clear to me. Aside from one prominent exception , posters have repeatedly claimed they want "nuanced" characters with realistic motivations and that "black-and-white morality is dumb and childish," essentially a "City of Wild Cards" vibe. This is exactly what we've received with the Tyrant/Praetoria storyline. Tyrant, far from being evil for evil's sake, seems more like a thinly-veiled political allegory, and the writers have endeavored to give him some sort of motivation while still portraying him as an unmistakable villain.
Oh, his motivations are perfectly clear. I just don't care. No really, I don't, and they have utterly failed at making me care. Maybe if he'd been presented as such from the get-go, rather than being presented first as evil goatee Marcus Cole, then as a walking example of "power corrupts," then having bits and pieces of backstory tacked on piecemeal in an attempt to give him depth and a severely misguided attempt to make him "grey," then I'd care. But I don't. Just let him implode and take the rest of his god-mode Sue multidimensional counterparts with him.

Quote:
I understand why people dislike the Incarnate backstory, but I don't really get the hate for the Praetorian storyline, as expressed. Yes, I see flaws with it (I consider its entire premise, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!", to be short-sightedly intolerant at best and appallingly savage at worst), but I don't understand others' complaints about it.
I consider its entire premise, "it's evil goatee Paragon!" to be fun for an episode here and there, but far too flimsy to base a major storyline around. Especially for villains. "Their monsters are scarier than our monsters" doesn't make it much better, since we all know their big scary monster is somehow going to link back to that annoying puddle anyway. (Prove me wrong devs. Prove me wrong.)

I also don't like the lawful obedient vs. chaotic obedient morality of Praetoria. I also dislike how incredibly contrived a lot of the "moral choices" are.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teldon View Post
The resistance, check

Resistance again

resistance yet again

Give Scott enough time. He may not be AS evil as Cole but he is getting there.
Yes / No / Not Really.

Again, going back to what I said in Post #33:

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One of the storyline motif's established in Going Rogue is that the Praetorian Faction leaders are not one-dimensional, mirror-dimension, polar-opposites of the Primal Earth Signature Heroes and Villains; but rather have deeper motivations coupled with genuine likable characteristics.
Okay, granted, Calvin Scott is not a member of the Freedom Phalanx, Vindicators, or Regulators in Primal Earth. He's just married to one of the Vindicators. Insert your own joke here about the marrying for her for her shenanigans. (NO, I'm NOT sorry!!)

By the same token, Calvin's Praetorian counterpart is likewise not a leader of one of the Imperial factions under Tyrant. Instead, the Praetorian Calvin is slowly revealed to the player as a Vigilante who has justified and rationalized every despicable action as the only way to bring Tyrant down. At some point the Praetorian Calvin came to believe that the only way to fight Tyrant was to use Tyrant's own methods.

The Praetorian Calvin Scott is not meant to be a Hero or a role model. In some aspects I think his own fall from grace is supposed to mimic that of Emperor Cole, but it's not quite the same. Calvin Scott still wants what is best for Praetoria, and I think that on some level he understands that what he is doing is wrong. I'm not convinced that Tyrant has considered the possibility that the steps he has taken could have been wrong.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyll View Post
Funny, I've said the same thing about the Resistance...

( I for one am looking forward to the iTrial where we storm their base of operations.)
Won't be happening.

It's already been indicated that Tyrant will be the final I-trial set in Praetoria, and that after that the next series of Trials will likely deal with the Battalion.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by KemLi View Post
Duuude.

Sweeeeeet!


Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.

screw your joke, i want "FREEM"