City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Discussion: Divided We Fall

2short2care

By 2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-09-07 11:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKDauntless View Post
The techs doing the process would then just remove the tapes of the last 30 days so Duray doesn't have any idea how badly he's screwed up over the last month. This keeps him from losing confidence and, maybe, questioning Cole's ultimate plan.
There is the issue that a large number of IDF troops saw the whole incident. And are supposed to talk about it. It won't that long for the Duray-clones to hear the story about how their predecessor died and what he was planning.

 

Posted

The way it mentions the troops just standing silently to attention while Tyrant is murdering Duray does actually make it sound like this isn't the first time they've seen Tyrant's Vader tribute act

@Golden Girl

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Posted

Add me to the list that really enjoyed the writing, and would like to see more of this quality of writing both in and out of the game.

(I should note that I do enjoy the most recent writing, e.g. Mort Kal's SF, so I'm not meaning to criticise that)

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I was thinking more of real Star Wars rather than fake Star Wars - Tyrant basically tells Duray that he was a clumsy as he was stupid, and that he's failed him for the last time, then kills him in fornt of his own men - I guess that's the standard way to deal with problems in an evil empire
It's one of the unwritten rules of being an evil overlord not to kill off your able assistants it doesn't engender loyalty nor does it do your ongoing training programs any good.

Cole has the benefit of resurrecting his underlings so he has the best of both worlds. He can kill off people who annoy him but also keep them alive so they can learn from their mistakes.

I see the scene in the story on three levels. First and foremost it sets the scene for us, secondly it reinforces his moral credibility within his own power structure but thirdly it reinforces with the future Durays that Cole is the boss.

 

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So we get Rikti vs Hami vs States vs Cole vs Recluse vs heroes vs villains?

Ooh and vs Shiva's.

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Posted

Nice read, really makes me want more novels. And thanks for the interesting lore bits that've been brought up - for some reason I thought the Battalion died off when Jack left (weren't they originally supposed to be some enemy group so powerful that heroes and villains were going to have to team up, pre-dating IO's and the announcement of the Invention System by a few issues?)

/not getting involved in the boring, bi-polar dead-horse discussion other than to sigh at how boring it is

 

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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
TWO new clones? What does His Eminence need with TWO copies of Colonel Duray?
Because on those hot, summery Praetorian nights, when Cole is feeling lonesome... it takes three to... well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

On a side note, very good lore writing. May I have some more please?

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Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Because on those hot, summery Praetorian nights, when Cole is feeling lonesome... it takes three to... well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

On a side note, very good lore writing. May I have some more please?
I dont think Cole is really into tango, such dancemoves havent been scripted in the game yet.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Ninja View Post
It's one of the unwritten rules of being an evil overlord not to kill off your able assistants it doesn't engender loyalty nor does it do your ongoing training programs any good.

Cole has the benefit of resurrecting his underlings so he has the best of both worlds. He can kill off people who annoy him but also keep them alive so they can learn from their mistakes.
Why am I thinking of Duncan Idaho...?

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
That they award empyrean merits.

If Prometheus appeared in Talos and said:

"Behold. These creatures contain a small portion of power from the Well of the Furies. Defeating them will grant all who aid in their destruction an Empyrean Merit."

I'd bet the Hamidon seeds would flee Primal Earth so fast they'd leave skid marks.
*snerk*

I so want to buy you a musubi right now. Or something from Zippy's. Malasada?

/Psyte tries luring a wild Nakayama

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
TWO new clones? What does His Eminence need with TWO copies of Colonel Duray?
Because otherwise he'd just be Colonel Monoray.

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:O

 

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all i have to say about that is OH ****

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Posted

Cole made it clear that he wanted his soldiers to "witness" what he was about to do. What exactly, though?

- That anyone who specifically threatens Primal Earth civilians gets executed and cloned back into service with altered memories?
- That anyone who specifically ignores Cole's orders gets executed and cloned back into service?
- That Cole doesn't want his name associated with the decision to smuggle Hamidon Seeds into Primal Earth?
- That Cole is willing to kill anyone, no matter how close or high-up in the chain of command, if it means protecting his benevolent-ruler image?
- That Cole is a manipulative ******* who can't stand the general public to think of him as anything less than a hero?

I'm still not buying it, Cole's still not a good guy in my eyes. How do we know he didn't mind-warp Duray into releasing the Seeds himself, then played the good guy in front of his troops? While aiding the Primals in this was, effectively, the moral thing to do, I question his motives. Cole=Recluse=Nemesis=DeVore=The Center, reluctant allies who might turn coat at any moment's notice.

 

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Originally Posted by Lady_Sadako View Post
So is Colonel Duray the jetpack hander-outer, then? Non-flying characters are going to have to get up to that Seed somehow!
The seeds aren't being sent over (that's the GM in First Ward), seedlings are (those are the little buffing critters that the GM sends out). Seedlings, when defeated, give temporary flight to characters who attacked it. So anyone with a little bounce and a ranged attack can get a hit in and then after the first seedling is defeated, can fly like the big boys and girls do.

Alternately, craft a jetpack for cheap, or buy one for a pittance.

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Originally Posted by Nericus View Post
As I read this I began thinking that Cole and Grand Admiral Thrawn have a bit in common.
If we start seeing Cole demonstrate an interest in art, I'll start sweating.

 

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The one thing that kind of annoys me is the disjoint between the Primal and Praetorian versions of Hamidon.

Primal Hamidon is a giant Amoeba.

Praetorian Hamidon appears to be a ripoff of Starcraft's Overmind.


There needs to be SOME kind of similarity between the two....

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This was refreshing, went all doe-eyed...dose not happen often.

background lore always adds a touch more to in game environments and events imho.

There is but one truth. Time is limited. ndnw its over

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Mass-murder, torture, brainwashing, slavery and multi-dimensional conquest aren't heroic in any way at all.
1) there have been terrible things done in the name of "righteousness" with at least one group believing those things were heroic, and they likely were but only for them.
There is always an "us versus them" issue that decides whether something is viewed as heroic or not.

2) If it weren't for government acceptance and overarching uniting threats, all Primal Earth heroes would be considered vigilantes/villains by the people for disobeying the law.
Heroism is a matter of perspective in that way.



3) Golden Girl, are you really believing every word written about Praetoria as gospel truth?
Has it not occurred to you that maybe they wrote the backstory of Emperor Cole/Tyrant and every other character as if it was written by a biased person from the game world?

History is not just rewritten by those in power. Those trying to seize power will spread their own propaganda.






I, for one, am very impressed with this story, and I believe actions speak louder than words.

Emperor Marcus Cole has, apparently, had the best of intentions and generally tried to do as little "necessary evil" as possible, in all histories of Praetoria that I know of and story arcs I have played through(even the Loyalist Power arcs).

He may have pushed the boundaries of "necessary evil" and may very well let his close confidants get away with evil, but I still see room for him to not be evil himself, not know how "unnecessary" the evil his subordinates do is(and not know all they do) or realize the error of his ways eventually.




I'm, personally, still going to do what is right, even as a Loyalist, and make sure to kick Cole in the nuts when he gets out of line, but I'm not willing to write anybody off as evil based on hearsay.





PS. I think we'll eventually defeat Cole, possibly redeeming him, and maybe become the new emperor(to facilitate both heroic and villainous stories, using phasing and conditional NPC dialog to achieve this) or at least become a new Praetor as Praetoria moves into a better age as it retains the good of the civilization(global overall peace and clockwork working for humans).

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
It's another one of those Devouring Earth threats that always seem to come along at useful times during his career
He doesn't just use the DE threats for kicks, like some chaoic evil such as the Joker from Batman comics.

He has a reason.


The reason is what matters most in determining the difference between vigilante and pure evil villain.






You know what?

The main question of all of the Praetorian content, and real life, is....."do the ends really justify the means?".



That is all Cole is doing. He says "yes, the ends do justify the means", but Primal Earth heroes say "no, the ends, no matter how great, do not justify the means".

Oh yes, Mother Mayhem is crazy(definitely) and evil(most likely, but maybe not irredeemably so if her insanity will be cured), but maybe Emperor Cole and Praetoria as a whole are not as evil as you would like to believe, especially if they get rid of as much evil as they can leaving only the supposed "necessary evils".


After all even in the real world, imprisoning a person without cause is illegal but it is perfectly legal and "heroic" to imprison someone for their evil deeds.



Where do you draw the line between "mostly good" and "evil"?

That is where Emperor Cole is. He is treading the line, and we are meant to decide "is he doing what is necessary or doing evil?", which the story is meant to make us question our stance at every turn.





Edit:
I don't role-play, officially or hardcore, but I do enjoy being immersed int he world as much as possible.
This is a great example of game immersion, but it's too bad this doesn't actually take place in the game.

I would be perfectly happy with the most simplistic UI and a simpler game(no real loot, less complicated crafting, no leveling....pretty much like a FPS game such as Halo 2) that fostered immersion in the world so long as there were well-made stories and a wholly well-made world to "live in".

That is what a lot of MMOs seem to be missing, and the system of this game detract from. We have to rely on, essentially, outside stories and "books"(written/typed words) to experience the story and immersion of a game when we really are playing an interactive medium that should immerse us much more thoroughly and simply rather than having immersion and story take a back seat to progression/grind/more numbers.

 

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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
That is where Emperor Cole is. He is treading the line
No he isn't - he crossed the line the moment he set up his dictatorship

Quote:
and we are meant to decide "is he doing what is necessary or doing evil?", which the story is meant to make us question our stance at every turn.
Yes, I find myself questioning my stance all the time as we fight our way through the moral uncertaininty of the Apex TF, the Tin Mage TF, the BAF Trial, the Lambda Sector Trial, the Keyes' Reactor Trial and the Underground Trial - being confronted by wave after wave of loyalist forces trying to conquer Primal Earth and enslave the rest of the multiverse for their evil master would make anyone reconsider which side is good and which side is bad

@Golden Girl

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
This might be a good time to psot Vanessa DeVore's updated bio from I21:

Quote:
"The mysterious Vanessa DeVore is a powerful psychic who formed the Carnival of Light from the desperate remains of powerful sorcerers and renegade telepaths who saw Emperor Cole for the evil he truly is. It is her mental powers which masks the Resistance from Praetor Tilman and the Seers. She helped form the Resistance from scattered and aimless groups opposed to Emperor Cole's totalitarian regime. She chose Calvin Scott to lead the violence prone Crusaders into battle with the Praetorian usurpers, and on the other hand she has carefully cultivated the Wardens to overthrown the empire from within and ultimately take over."
It doesn't seem to present Tyrant and the loyalists in a very good light
1) That's the perspective of the Carnival of Light/Resistance as obviously the Crusaders are just "violence prone" rather than their true "evil murderous" leanings all too often.
Villains are on both sides along with heroes on both sides.


2) "she has carefully cultivated the Wardens to overthrown the empire from within and ultimately take over"

"and ultimately take over"

It doesn't seem like they want a different form of government so much as "we want to be the ones with power instead of Cole".





True good people and heroes don't want power; they just don't want others to have the power to prevent them from living a good honest happy life.

The Resistance of Praetoria are not "truly good" just as the Loyalists are not "truly evil".
Their motives are what make them good or evil as individuals within the whole of the groups.


It still remains to be seen whether Emperor Cole is doing "necessary evil", and "going a bit too far" possibly, or has fallen to the corruption of power.



"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is not meant to say "no leaders ever" but rather "don't fall to the temptation of power to become corrupt" and "always be wary of your leaders, ensure they do not fall into corruption while they lead".

It's not a condemnation; it's a cautionary tale.


Emperor Cole needs to be watched, and Mother Mayhem needs to be taken down because watching her has proven she has been corrupted, but the system as a whole may not need drastic changes or the changes may end up being worse.

Where do you place the line to be crossed? How do you judge what is "necessary" versus what is "wrong", especially when you don't fully understand the world they live in?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
Golden Girl, are you really believing every word written about Praetoria as gospel truth?
When the devs say someone's a villain, I tend to believe them - especially when they back it up with actions in game

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
No he isn't - he crossed the line the moment he set up his dictatorship
What would you say of religions with one god and one interpretation of that god's will over every person?


Dictatorship is a word to describe a system where one person is in control.
It is not inherently good or evil, but the person in that position can be evil.


The answer is not "Praetoria is an evil dictatorship" but rather the question is "is Emperor Cole an evil dictator?".
The key phrase is "evil dictator" where "evil" is clearly a modifier to distinguish "evil dictator" from "benevolent dictator".


Words are a tricky thing. They can be used to oppress or free people, show truth or hide it and praise or slander a person.

The Resistance is likely just as guilty of making up lies about Emperor Cole as much as he is guilty of making up lies about himself.



Humans are human, even superhumans are superhuman.
One (super)human's actions prove that another is likely just as capable as the other of the same actions.

Is the Resistance better than Cole or just a different color wolf? Is Cole worse that the Resistance is supposedly good or just a different color puppy?





I would not write any character or person off as evil without proof or even truly good because actions matter and things can change.
You can have proof of evil, but they can be redeemed. You can have proof of good, but they can fall to corruption.

Trust, but be wary.