Discussion: Divided We Fall
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-09-07 11:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Maybe he is, but maybe he is not beyond redemption or not that much of a villain.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
When the devs say someone's a villain, I tend to believe them - especially when they back it up with actions in game
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It is both a question of degrees and perceptions.
The official bio could very well have been written "in character" as a Resistance member appearing to be objective and unbiased but still biased at the heart towards the name "Tyrant".
I'll judge whether or not he is a villain when he actually directly(or at least supposedly indirectly) does something I can truly say is evil, not his underlings or propaganda from an incorrect biased source.
Then, I'll judge whether he can be redeemed or not.
For example, I don't believe Tyrant orchestrated the Praetorian DE "typhoid mary" event in this story. I truly believe he "would not wish that fate on his worst enemy" let alone a people he wants to conquer with subjects remaining to rule over.
He does not seem evil yet, misguided and questionable possibly but not evil.
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So basically Cole is the paragon studio's equivalent of Marvel's Apocalypse
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you discovered that a serial killer was taking care of his elderly mother, would you say he wasn't "all bad" and just a good man with a character flaw?
Cole is the bad guy because, unless you are a fascist, he believes he has the right to control the world and remake it in his image, and that's traditionally considered bad. The fact that Cole is not an indiscriminate mass murderer does not make him automatically a hero. It makes him not a mass murderer. He still wants to take over the place, install a dictatorship, deploy thought police, and crush all opposition to his will. Cole believes we need to be saved from the Hamidon, so he'll try to save us from the Hamidon. Cole also believes we need to be saved from ourselves. Everyone willing to be saved from themselves, step forward and join the Praetorians. Everyone else will have irreconcilable differences with his majesty. Human beings are not all bad or all good, but we can judge people based on their overall actions and morality. Cole's morality is "I know what's best, and since I have the power to bend everyone to my will for the greater good I intend to use it." Whether that's "good" or "bad" depends on your point of view I suppose, but I know which side I'm on. |
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1) Is Tyrant truly complicit in "inhuman crimes" or unknowing of them or unwilling to deal with the issues that would come from stopping such crimes?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Vanessa might feel that there need to be some heroes running Praetoria for a bit to help tear down the system Tyrant has set up and build a proper governemnt instead, because Tyrant's dictatorship isn't a system where crimes against humanity happen from time to time because of rogue members - it's a system built entirely on crimes against humanity, where they're carried out 24/7, because that's the only thing that can keep the system in place.
Plus, the devs actually saying that Tyrant is a villain, and that the loyalists are the real threat to Praetoria, and that the Resistance are the good side kinda backs up the content we see in-game too |
We know Mother Mayhem is a pretty safe "crazy evil" bet, but Cole may be "accepting one evil to prevent what he thinks is a worse evil".
Plenty of room for him to not be truly evil but rather "evil in another's eyes" just as much as he is "good in another's eyes".
2) The devs have also stated that the Resistance has many evil people as well. Both sides have those that just want power and mayhem and death of someone in particular or random people.
The very fact that we are supposed to "empathize with Cole" is proof that he is supposed ot be viewed as "possibly good, possibly evil" but always "doing what he thinks is necessary 'for the greater good'".
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BINGO!|
Originally Posted by je_saist
At some point the Praetorian Calvin came to believe that the only way to fight Tyrant was to use Tyrant's own methods.
The Praetorian Calvin Scott is not meant to be a Hero or a role model. In some aspects I think his own fall from grace is supposed to mimic that of Emperor Cole, but it's not quite the same. Calvin Scott still wants what is best for Praetoria, and I think that on some level he understands that what he is doing is wrong. I'm not convinced that Tyrant has considered the possibility that the steps he has taken could have been wrong. |
There is evil on both sides, as well as some good, with good intentions on both ends.
I'll gladly kick both their butts, trying to protect the people or Praetoria from both sides.
"Lemme at'em lemme at'em!"
That leaves 2 questions:
1) What happens to the system after Emperor Cole is defeated or redeemed?
2) What will players choose? Will they take over and make the system worse or better or will they let somebody else impose their will on the populace and either be better or worse than Emperor Cole?
There has to be some form of accepted "this is how the world works" system to ensure people can continue to live and do so with as little fear of evil or inanimate disaster as possible. That tends to lend itself to being controlled by someone, be they good or evil, and improved or twisted by them.
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This is why I don't really think the Resistance is better than Emperor Cole, or that Cole's system(with or without him) is necessarily bad(except for the seer program which is bad as it is).|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Vanessa might feel that there need to be some heroes running Praetoria for a bit to help tear down the system Tyrant has set up and build a proper governemnt instead
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(please, don't go off on a tangent because of the following statements and thoughts)
Why do people need "government?
Why does government need to have power over people?
We can have just and fair laws without government as they are all agreed upon by the people as a system of "I don't want this done to me so nobody can do this to anyone, even myself can't do that to others" and logical fair punishments.
I think what any world needs is less "government" and more of a "facilitator".
People need a group that facilitates their collective will, doing what the people want but can't do on their own. The people need to be in control and the "government" needs to do what the majority of people want, "facilitating the execution of their collective will".
Anyway, I don't care how a system is described or structured or run daily so long as it does right by the majority of people.
If Emperor Cole wants to be a dictator to keep people safe then I'm fine with it, but he better not step out of line. Mother Mayhem is going down for this reason, as well as others who abuse power in the game.
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Funny that he mentions Rome. Rome was a city that had fallen to corruption and needed to fall because of it. "Sometimes things get worse before they get better."|
Originally Posted by Washu357
For those who think Cole might be heroic, Vagabond from the Resistance might have a few words to say about that...
"I was laying in a pile of debris, watchin' the Devouring Earth charge into the main city. And you know who I see, watchin' the entire scene from a skyscraper? Cole. I thought we were all saved! Here was that guy everyone was talkin' about. And you know what he did? He watched Rome burn." |
I would think, in regards to Vagabond, "why was Cole just watching?", "why not save people?" and "what reason could you have given him to not save you?".
Would you save a definite murderer, possibly at the risk of your own life?
I know many would say "no" and many would give the same answer for lesser crimes.
These are just the things that would run through my head.
Edit:
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just that I do not know the context.
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I actually think he did what he did for 2 reasons.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Time is a bit fungible in City of Heroes and MMOs in general, but I'm assuming that Cole doesn't care if he completely erases Duray's memories of planning the Hamidon incursion, Cole is just trying to set Duray back far enough so that any proximate plans Duray had were just basically nullified.
I'm also guessing that while Duray's memories are being erased, his older memories aren't being rewritten. So Duray is going to wake up suddenly with a month gone, and I'm guessing he's going to put two and two together and realize that whatever he was planning, it didn't end well. But with a month of his memory gone he won't know what specifically went horribly awry without careful research, and he won't have the time given he's being sent right into combat. |
1) He definitely wanted to eliminate any current plans Duray had and thoughts of more unapproved actions.
2) He killed Duray to tell the clones "this is what Duray did and he died for it, don't disobey again or you will too" as a warning.
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The shades of gray are not in his status as hero or villain, they are in his motivations, reasoning and alternatives to what he chose.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Really? What tipped you off to that? It's so totally well hidden behind all those shade of gray
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Would the world be worse without him?
Would other actions be worse?
Would other actions or the world be better?
"Do his results justify the means he uses?"
all good Cult of Personality dictators, have a fall guy, someone to make the evil necessary decisions then you out this "traitor" and are now fixing his treachery, if said treachery makes you the savior then so be it
Machiavelli writes a beautiful little guide to how to be a beloved despot called the Prince, and he mentions the importance of having a left hand man to do the dirty work and then is punished
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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Neither is saving the human race from extinction. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Mass-murder, torture, brainwashing, slavery and multi-dimensional conquest aren't heroic in any way at all.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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I was referring to the story arcs, not the obvious "we die if we don't fight these mindless robots and heartless AVs" fights.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yes, I find myself questioning my stance all the time as we fight our way through the moral uncertaininty of the Apex TF, the Tin Mage TF, the BAF Trial, the Lambda Sector Trial, the Keyes' Reactor Trial and the Underground Trial - being confronted by wave after wave of loyalist forces trying to conquer Primal Earth and enslave the rest of the multiverse for their evil master would make anyone reconsider which side is good and which side is bad
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The Praetorian story arcs, and eventual final showdown with Emperor Cole likely as well, are meant to test our moral compass and force hard choices.
That is why the one poster well above felt the Praetorian moral choices and story were contrived, because it's supposed to be a "back against the wall" situation all the time.
This is the Emperor Cole and the Praetorians I had wanted and expected when we were first introduced to Praetoria. A world that had multiple facets to it. Instead We have a one-dimensional praetoria where Cole is a villain.
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Well Golden Girl, I can tell you from experience while what you say is true, it does wear on writers & developers with the constant bombardment of the criticisms. This is especially true when the fans get really nasty and personal. Then it sucks to high heaven. I know of a number of good writers that walked away from a game universe/system because of it.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And as the devs just keep on doing the same enjoyable stuff, regardless of the silly criticism, I think it's safe to assume that they're sensibly ignoring it
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Er, not in any of the stories involving him I remember. Admittedly, it's been a while, but Marvel's Apocalypse struck me as much more similar to Recluse than Tyrant. Apocalypse's philosophy was very much about survival of the fittest. He's possibly more sociopathic than even Recluse, though, as I recall Apocalypse actually seeks to expunge the weak, rather then just let them fall to the bottom of the food chain.|
Originally Posted by chartube13
So basically Cole is the paragon studio's equivalent of Marvel's Apocalypse
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I the Age of Apocalypse miniseries/crossover he committed genocide against non-mutants on an epic scale after conquering at least the Americas.
Blue
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Red
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I thought these morality issues were all discussed long enough in the many, many pages of the several Going Rogue forum threads.
What about the announcement? Do we expect a follow-up with dates, times, zones and servers? How bad will the lag be? Are there any ways to minimize that? Will the Customer Relations staff be doing all this "by hand" or do you think there'll be some scripted parts to it? How long will it last? Will there be any special rewards for participating? Should there be any?
Will you decide your character knows about this in advance? How will it affect your character in the long term, if at all? Do you expect this to be a "one-off" type of event, and if not, how should it relate to past and future parts of this evolving Praetorian War storyline? Will the story wrap up neatly with Cole getting a donut to go with his coffee from the last event, or will/should it work into the bigger picture? Does it relate to the "Galaxageddo"n coming in i21? How about the Underground iTrial?
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They were, but a revisitation seemed inevitable once we were "shown" Cole doing something that has a hint of goodness and honor (viewed in a vacuum, at least).
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Originally Posted by Ardrea
I thought these morality issues were all discussed long enough in the many, many pages of the several Going Rogue forum threads.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think it's the perfect time to mention the "Defender of Primal Earth" badge again. |
Originally Posted by Ardrea
What about the announcement? Do we expect a follow-up with dates, times, zones and servers? How bad will the lag be? Are there any ways to minimize that? Will the Customer Relations staff be doing all this "by hand" or do you think there'll be some scripted parts to it? How long will it last? Will there be any special rewards for participating? Should there be any?
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Yep. Some people just can't accept that evil is evil.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
They were, but a revisitation seemed inevitable once we were "shown" Cole doing something that has a hint of goodness and honor (viewed in a vacuum, at least).
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Besides the fact that they both are evolved from a human scientist who wants to return Earth to a more natural state?|
Originally Posted by Hercules
The one thing that kind of annoys me is the disjoint between the Primal and Praetorian versions of Hamidon.
Primal Hamidon is a giant Amoeba. Praetorian Hamidon appears to be a ripoff of Starcraft's Overmind. There needs to be SOME kind of similarity between the two.... |
Alternate dimensions can certainly contain vastly different versions of the same entity, and ideally they should be vastly different. Environment and circumstance have an effect on how people (or in this case, monsters) evolve.
Take two twins separated at birth and placed in opposite corners of the map. They share genes, but that's about it. Bring them back together and adults, and they might look similar, but they'll be two completely different people. One might be a criminal, the other a cop. One might have gone to Harvard, the other flips burgers. That's normal.
Praetorian Hamidon is what he is because the people in that dimension decided tactical nukes was the only way to stop him. Obviously it didn't work, and because of Emperor Cole's actions, Hamidon was allowed to flourish unfettered outside the sonic fences. In Primal Earth, Hamidon was more subtle, and had the advantage of a Rikti Invasion to distract superpowered folks. He has less raw materials to work with and space to be in, since Primal didn't nuke the place, so he's still in a less-evolved state, and now that the Rikti threat is at semi-controlled level due to there being a Vanguard group to watch them, heroes can focus more attention to Hami, which also keeps him from advancing as fast as Praetorian Hami has.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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Or maybe it was the tactical nukes that caused Hamidon to evolve into whatever frightening thing (or things?) that it is now? Mutating to adapt (or pieces there of or whatever was left after nukes hit it). |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Praetorian Hamidon is what he is because the people in that dimension decided tactical nukes was the only way to stop him. Obviously it didn't work, and because of Emperor Cole's actions, Hamidon was allowed to flourish unfettered outside the sonic fences. In Primal Earth, Hamidon was more subtle, and had the advantage of a Rikti Invasion to distract superpowered folks. He has less raw materials to work with and space to be in, since Primal didn't nuke the place, so he's still in a less-evolved state, and now that the Rikti threat is at semi-controlled level due to there being a Vanguard group to watch them, heroes can focus more attention to Hami, which also keeps him from advancing as fast as Praetorian Hami has.
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Its the mystery that keeps us spellbound and the our imaginations involved. A form of suspense to keep us thinking on it. Leaving a story on a cliffhanger to keep us staying on the channel and see what happens next.
Its a good bit of write up and I do want to see more. Complements to the chief of this story "Divided We Fall."
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One-dimensional thinking and black-and-white morality are certainly easier for some to grasp.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Yep. Some people just can't accept that evil is evil.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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There right and there wrong. What Cole is doing to for the so called greater good is wrong. How is this so hard for some to grasp?
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Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
One-dimensional thinking and black-and-white morality are certainly easier for some to grasp.
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Arg... why am I doing this...
Can we at least agree on the current Cole is at least more interesting than the old Cole from the Jenkin's arc? When I read/look at his character, yes, evil, bad, don't want him babysitting the kids, but more than that he's a tremendous loss in terms of what he could've been*. Hence I would really, really love a good novel (series) based on his journey from plain ol' Cole to Emperor Cole, because I think it would be rather fascinating. Especially if it released along with a novel following the exploits of Primal Cole/Statesman.
And to me he's FAR more interesting than Recluse. Right now the only character who would surpass him as a topic of writing, for me, would be Nemesis, but since Frank Herbert is dead, I'm not sure who I'd want to see write him!
*I won't say "should've been," because how do we know we have the best possible version of Cole? Lotta universes/dimensions and possibilities out there, you know? The "best" Cole might not even have had powers, but still have done great and amazing things. Or opened up an ice cream truck. I like ice cream.
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By this logic gravity doesn't exist, the sun doesn't emit electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum, and space is filled with oxygen at breathable concentration levels.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
One-dimensional thinking and black-and-white morality are certainly easier for some to grasp.
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| There right and there wrong. What Cole is doing to for the so called greater good is wrong. How is this so hard for some to grasp? |
Like it or not, there are some absolutes in life.
Pholph.com (that's as far as I'm linking) actually has a couple of good stories about why the ends do not justify the means. A particularly good one starts around strip 712.
Real life also has examples of when the ends do not always justify the means. In the US armed services soldiers who commit acts of terrorism or torture are as culpable for their actions as the officer who gave those orders. Following orders that result in illegal actions, even if it has a net positive outcome, does not dismiss the fact that illegal actions were taken.
Now, in all fairness, this particular argument does get turned on its head. I'm hesitant to really go into current depth on this because of the forum rules here. So I'll go back into history. The German and Japanese Armies in WWII played by a completely different rulebook than opposing forces, most notably the violations of the Geneva Conventions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions
How exactly does one fight an opposing force that doesn't value life? How does one fight an opposing force that believes it an inherently superior race with no restrictions? How does one counter a force that will use every underhanded trick in the book?
When various leaders over the years have faced such situations, successful leaders have universally tried to implement a strategy with the least amount of collateral damage.
That still doesn't change the fact that some of those strategies were, and are, WRONG.
Plus, the devs actually saying that Tyrant is a villain, and that the loyalists are the real threat to Praetoria, and that the Resistance are the good side kinda backs up the content we see in-game too
@Golden Girl
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