Draconian character creation power set availability due to balance issues?
Top 20 sure seems like one of the top to me. Maybe not you but hey.. the sun is blue eh?
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And of course since it's a success, naturally, there's no need for any complaints or changes, are there.
Well here's a opinion piece for you.
http://unsubject.wordpress.com/2010/...v-have-anyway/
It was a good attempt. I think you might need another slant though. So far the ones presented really haven't worked as intended.
I like to tell people why I'm putting them on /ignore. There's only a tiny chance they'll learn from my explanation, but it makes me feel better.
I am putting you on /ignore, quickfire, because you aren't trying in any visible way to convince me of your points. You're a lazy arguer, and I've done the thing where I spend half an hour on a reasoned post to be met with 30 seconds of "Nu-uh! You're not the boss of me!" I've done it more than enough.
Sir, madam, or tentacled creature: I bid you good day.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Draconian? Really? Like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(lawgiver)
I think, since none of us are being put to death, that "Draconian" is probably a teensy bit hyperbolic
Yes, that's right. Amongst all these statistics and wild opinions, I noticed nobody was doing the Language Police thing, so I thought I'd better sort that right out.
Everyone's already addressed the classic points. I'm going to opine that if such a change was implemented, you'd soon find it's not nearly as fun as you imagine. People tend to lose interest in grossly overpowered characters pretty fast, and grossly underpowered is frustrating. You'd soon find the forums full of suggested builds which would begin to seem a bit like the ATs we now know.
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An example would be the Dynasty Warriors series, you always start underpowered, but by the time you get half-way through the character's levels/weapons/items, you become grossly OVER powered and can wipe the floor with anything and everything you face, even LuBu.
The game series has always been only a moderate success here in the states, but it's been a HUGE hit back in Japan and seems to be keeping its hit status there.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It was a good attempt. I think you might need another slant though. So far the ones presented really haven't worked as intended.
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Seriously though, CoH has maintained a fairly steady amount of paying accounts since its inception. Some people have multiple accounts, and that needs to be factored in, but I'm guessing that the majority of players do not have multiple accounts. (I myself have an inactive second account, so it counts as half?)
I've seen these kind of arguments over the past several years about how the game is dying, etc., but I've yet to see it happen. Going F2P to me is a good step for CoH. If you view LoTRO and its transition to F2P, they experienced a growth in both subscribers and revenue. Is it hard to believe that CoH can't experience the same? Not really.
You are partially right. They may not be able to change player opinions all the time, but the flipside is true as well. We may not be able to change the dev's opinions either.
The devs need to walk a balancing line: on one side are the consumers, who need to be kept happy; the other side is the company, who needs to have good revenues. The devs are trying to keep a happy medium, but it isn't always going to make us perfectly happy. You don't like not being able to respec a powerset, but it doesn't bother everyone else. Devs have to manage based on the majority, not the minority.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
I like to tell people why I'm putting them on /ignore. There's only a tiny chance they'll learn from my explanation, but it makes me feel better.
I am putting you on /ignore, quickfire, because you aren't trying in any visible way to convince me of your points. You're a lazy arguer, and I've done the thing where I spend half an hour on a reasoned post to be met with 30 seconds of "Nu-uh! You're not the boss of me!" I've done it more than enough. Sir, madam, or tentacled creature: I bid you good day. |
Draconian? Really? Like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(lawgiver) I think, since none of us are being put to death, that "Draconian" is probably a teensy bit hyperbolic Yes, that's right. Amongst all these statistics and wild opinions, I noticed nobody was doing the Language Police thing, so I thought I'd better sort that right out. |
DooOooOoooOooM?
Seriously though, CoH has maintained a fairly steady amount of paying accounts since its inception. Some people have multiple accounts, and that needs to be factored in, but I'm guessing that the majority of players do not have multiple accounts. (I myself have an inactive second account, so it counts as half?) I've seen these kind of arguments over the past several years about how the game is dying, etc., but I've yet to see it happen. Going F2P to me is a good step for CoH. If you view LoTRO and its transition to F2P, they experienced a growth in both subscribers and revenue. Is it hard to believe that CoH can't experience the same? Not really. You are partially right. They may not be able to change player opinions all the time, but the flipside is true as well. We may not be able to change the dev's opinions either. The devs need to walk a balancing line: on one side are the consumers, who need to be kept happy; the other side is the company, who needs to have good revenues. The devs are trying to keep a happy medium, but it isn't always going to make us perfectly happy. You don't like not being able to respec a powerset, but it doesn't bother everyone else. Devs have to manage based on the majority, not the minority. |
And it's also a good point to say that they need to make current players happy. A medium would probably be the wisest choice.
It comes down to this. Last time I left, and if that chart is any indication, it looks like quite a few folks left at around the same time I did. I didn't post my concerns back then, I just did what most folks do when they don't like a game I expect...I voted with my feet.
This time I decided to speak up. I realize that some folks are passionate about this game and will defend it to the death, and though I can respect that I will not be silenced. This time I am going to speak my opinions on this game's weaknesses.
Because I believe the game deserves more players. This game has MASSIVE potential but I think it's it's own worst enemy in some ways. What it does well it does better than almost every game on the market.
...what it fails at, however, makes a lasting impression IMO.
I am sure to post more complaints as time passes. This time I'm not just going to walk. I'm going to speak up...because I actually care. Last time I didn't.
Steady, yes. And I don't mean to imply doom, or that the game is dying. Only that it perhaps did not meet expectations, has less subscribers than it launched with, and is probably in sub 100k territory at the moment. I don't think it's a stretch to make those contentions, though they are speculative I will admit.
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And it's also a good point to say that they need to make current players happy. A medium would probably be the wisest choice. |
It comes down to this. Last time I left, and if that chart is any indication, it looks like quite a few folks left at around the same time I did. I didn't post my concerns back then, I just did what most folks do when they don't like a game I expect...I voted with my feet. This time I decided to speak up. I realize that some folks are passionate about this game and will defend it to the death, and though I can respect that I will not be silenced. This time I am going to speak my opinions on this game's weaknesses. |
Because I believe the game deserves more players. |
This game has MASSIVE potential but I think it's it's own worst enemy in some ways. What it does well it does better than almost every game on the market. ...what it fails at, however, makes a lasting impression IMO. I am sure to post more complaints as time passes. This time I'm not just going to walk. I'm going to speak up...because I actually care. Last time I didn't. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
The game is 7 years old! What the pancake did you expect?! For a niche game, CoH did VERY well, and exceeded expectations. But yes, after 7 years, there aren't as many people here. Your suggestion would NOT change that in any meaningful way.
Where is the medium level between "powerset respecs" and "no powerset respecs?" And you should feel free to, but when you start making claims about what is driving OTHER people away, and what might get OTHER people to start playing the game, then you need to back that up with some sort of evidence, which you don't have. You're stating opinion about what is causing the game to lose population, and making up a solution to that cause, even if it might not exist. I agree with you there. Here's the thing with opinions: everyone has one. What you see as a problem, another person might see as a benefit. Without being able to show how many people are on either side, how do you propose to show that you're right? The fact is, that you can't. Doesn't mean you need to stop saying stuff, but you should understand why people might be giving you some flak. |
Opinions do not require qualification. And it's not a stretch to say, IMO, the game has NOT done well.
I would further say that I don't need to understand the flack I'm getting, actually. I believe I know why some are. Some are because they find my point baseless. Still others are cheerleading. Neither is relevant to my point or this discussion IMO.
BTW, the medium comment was agreement with what they are doing now as perhaps sensible. It wasn't meant as a self serving comment.
I still stand by my original comments, but naturally expect folks, especially those that have been here a while to disagree.
A Superheroes Creed:
There are many like them, but these ones are mine.
My powers are my best friends. They are my life.
I must master them as I must master my life.
I must fire my powers true. I must focus harder than my enemy who is trying to kill me.
I must kill him before he kills me. I will...
We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
Thus, I will learn them as a brother.
I will learn their weaknesses, their strengths, their limits.
I will ever guard them against the ravages of fatigue and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage.
I will keep my powers ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
My powers and myself are sentinals.
We are the masters of our enemy.
We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until there is no enemy...
I can't take a toon I rolled, and decide the powers arn't working for me, hope to switch them out, but keep it as the same toon. It isnt. If it doesn't work, it gets rerolled. I cant imagine Batman changing his reflexes for say, invulnerability and still be called Batman. It feels false. That is just my emotional opinion. My Subjective opinion is that it is a bad idea for the reasons previously stated in this thread. |
I mean, I think that there have been cases where superhero powers changed in the past, but I don't think it's common.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Opinions do not require qualification. And it's not a stretch to say, IMO, the game has NOT done well.
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Now, we can quibble about what qualifies as doing "well". I think 'more successful than most games' would qualify.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Another negative to allowing the swapping of powersets (after advancing levels):
Even within a specific AT, the options, powers and the way that these combinations play can be vastly different.
The leveling process gives you (the player) experience (real experience, not game xp) with those specific powers.
Learning the game as a Fire/Fire Blaster is a very different experience than a Fire/Devices Blaster.
It's the same with a /Regeneration Scrapper vs. an /Invulnerability Scrapper, a /Trick Arrows vs. /Cold Controller... And so on and so forth.
Sure, the developers could provide an option that wouldn't take any of that into account and let us swap things around that really have little connection, but it has its own negatives and I don't see many positives to come from it.
Mainly... if you want to have a leveled x/x character... level one. It's sort of the basic premise of providing and playing a video game.
I understand where you're coming from, but it is possible that you are placing too much connection between powersets beneath the AT umbrella.
Each powerset, and then powerset combinations as well, can play very differently.
So, jumping from one to the other is somewhat of an artificial breach in integrity of the game as well as possibly damaging to the player's ability/experience and (overall) enjoyment (as they may continue to try and make the /Regen scrapper perform under a strategy gleamed from leveling an /Invuln scrapper, for example).
Not that I think this is a huge problem, nor will it affect the cost of tea in China, but... within the scope of a video game design, I can see it as a mistake to allow such conversions.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I cant imagine Batman changing his reflexes for say, invulnerability and still be called Batman.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I would further say that I don't need to understand the flack I'm getting, actually. I believe I know why some are. Some are because they find my point baseless. Still others are cheerleading. Neither is relevant to my point or this discussion IMO.
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I still stand by my original comments, but naturally expect folks, especially those that have been here a while to disagree. |
Yes, I too expect folks, especially those that have been here a while, but also large portions of everyone else, to lodge a range of objections.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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I think archetypes add a lot to the game besides the obvious balancing that they provide (just look at the rubbish base numbers corruptors get versus the brilliant values for modern dominators - yet both are just as fun and effective in actual play) because the variation in base numbers and inherents can add diversity that you don't get from power picks alone. Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers all choose from the same types of primary/secondary combination, yet they provide substantially different gaming experiences because the sets can be adjusted by archetype, interpreted in the light of base modifiers and attributes, and influenced by inherents. I like archetypes because they add depth beyond which sets you can pick from.
Steady, yes. And I don't mean to imply doom, or that the game is dying. Only that it perhaps did not meet expectations, has less subscribers than it launched with, and is probably in sub 100k territory at the moment. I don't think it's a stretch to make those contentions, though they are speculative I will admit.
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1. Did not meet expectations.
Whose? NCsoft's? Look at the history:
Eight years of a fairly steady user base (yes, decline over time, but that's standard for an MMO.) They *purchased the IP outright,* as well as hiring the development staff AND set them up in their own office. And that's been several years, now - that's not something you do if it "does not meet expectations."
Compare, instead, to two other NC games: Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa. Or even Dungeon Runners. This game has had a fairly steady base for *nearly eight years.* That's a good run for ANY MMO.
2. Fewer subs than it started with.
Let me just answer this with "Duh."
Look at those charts again. See how most of them go - including COH? Spike, drop, slow decline... if they're lucky. (Look how many go spike-crash to 0.) Most of the ones that have been around for a while share the same curve - spike, drop, easy slope. (With the occasional spike around expansion releases.)
3. Sub 100k territory:
So what? What does that mean? The game's still profitable for it to still be alive, with as many (soon to be more) servers, more than enough people to play with, and enough for NC to continue funding development instead of announcing sale or closure. Again, nearly *8 year old game.* Very few get, or stay, over 150,000 - and if you think the only way for a game to be successful is to have multi-million users, well... think again.
I think you have to re-examine your assumptions.
Ok, so how about you set the secondary rechoice to before level 30? Or even better...
Given one total rebuild at level 10 (primary and secondary choices) and one secondary rechoice at level 20. It's still early...by this time most folks will realize that they don't like the build they have and can change it without need for the dreaded "delete, reroll" that this game's reputation is plagued with at the moment. Were not really talking about a change of archetype here...that would require a reroll and that is understandable. We are talking about a powerset choice mistake rectified fairly early in the game. |
At 30 I've just begun to slot standard IOs and possibly some sets. If I've spent this much time with this Primary and Secondary combo why would I want to switch?
So my question to you is, is this something you feel that strongly about that you need the devs to devote time to COMPLETELY re-coding the respec system to versus creating new content, new powers, new costumes? If you do that's great but for me it's not. I have about 100 toons all told. Many I don't play because I don't like the power combos, many because I didn't like concept but if they need to be deleted to play a combo or concept I DO like, then so be it. It's one of the BEST features of this game. IMHO... I play this game for fun in my leisure time, which has gotten less and less. If I don't like something then I do something else or play something else, it's that simple.
Also why is changing archtype understandable but not primary and secondary? I have played many blasters. Blasters are super squishy. BUT their most damaging powers are in the melee range and are aggro magnets. Well I rolled a blaster and wanted to be strongest from range but I like the power I have in melee. I should be able to respec into a scrapper so I can survive melee, right? What do you mean no? I mean that's understandable right?
Also, just because at level 30 you can now become fire/kin controller versus the fire/cold controller doesn't guarantee you will like the combo any better. You've yet to address this situation from other posters(unless I missed it which is possible). How many total power respecs should be allowed? For over 7 years zero has worked for majority of the paying player base. Has NOT having this ability caused some to move on? Possibly. Enough to shut the game down? Nope. Is it going to be the feature, or lack of feature in your opinion, that will shut it down? I doubt it. But good luck with the request.
It is also required that it actually works. And don't try to present the silly notion that it does because you managed to find the threads.
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I know how to use a forum, but thanks for the sarcasm at any rate. |
What on earth are you talking about?
This is one of the most successful, highest-population MMOs of all time. Just because it isn't WOW doesn'6t mean it's BAD.
You know, it's funny. I almost started to attempt to justify my opinion why this game has not been that successful...nice try.
I think we will just leave it at that. After all, the sun is blue....right?
How about all these that have lower populations?