Draconian character creation power set availability due to balance issues?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-08-31 08:29 in Player Questions
Champions tried a more free form system... apparently that didn't work so well for them.
AE puts restrictions on it- i.e. no primary defense/secondary defense! Balance is a huge part of it (how do you balance a melee/melee character with a melee/defense, or ranged/defense, or ranged/ranged, etc?), but balance also impacts fun: the goal is to not only curtail the overpowered builds, but limit the number of gimped builds people (primarily new people) can make inadventantly, and then have a horrible experience. Balance and fun go hand in hand... the balance of the powersets is what lets me think about fun in this game more than 'which powerset won't suck to play?'!
What combinations of powersets do you miss, anyways? Seems that a couple new ATs could cover most any 'desirable' combinations that are missing, without making balance a nightmare.
Edit: Miss this part at first...
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Because the powerset is considered a fundamental aspect of the character. Because the Devs don't like the idea of you having a 50 with zero experience with it. Because the Devs don't want you to start with a more early-blooming set, then respec into a late-blooming set (something they also try to address via balance). Because the Devs don't want a level 50 of a new powerset/AT 5 minutes after an issue goes live (though, you can do it in a day from PLing if you try hard enough...). Take your pick, or come up with many more!|
Originally Posted by quickfire
My question would then be this...Why do the restrictions on power sets in character creation exist, and why can't you change your original power set choice when respeccing?
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The idea sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth... what if Batman suddenly could shoot beams from his eyes and read peoples minds, but lost his martial arts/gadgets/everything that makes him batman (then again, I'm sure some crappy alternate universe one has done that... but I don't like comics anyways
). CoH has always encouraged alting, so the idea of just 'respecing' a character into a totally different build would sort of go against that... Freem accounts in Freedom will have less space to alt without paying anything, but VIPs will have even more space.I'd only support the idea of respecing to different 'ATs' if it was more so like how VEATs work. Not that you're really changing your 'AT'/'powersets', but that you change to a different emphasis (like I believe the new Starwars MMO allows each 'class' to spec out in different ways... such as any to be a tank/healer/etc... although CoH is good at ignoring the whole holy trinity thing anyways).
I think alting is the solution to all of life's problems
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Full power set respecs have been stated by the devs as incredibly difficult to code.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Here is one issue I have with this title. It seems that you have complete freedom when creating mobs for missions with respect to the pairing of power sets. A massive, even dizzying array of combinations is available, and it seems to me this is the way the main game should have been.
I am guessing the idea of balance plays into powerset match restrictions. Once again balance trumping fun, in this case a BIG fun factor. It seems to me that having that kind of freedom would not only increase the diversity 10 fold in player character variety, it would also serve to increase both popularity of certain unique builds as well as the overall game as a whole. My question would then be this...Why do the restrictions on power sets in character creation exist, and why can't you change your original power set choice when respeccing? Thanks for your input. |
Regarding your desire for free form power set selection: That's just how the game is balanced.
On Free-form power selection:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ight=free-form
On full powerset respecs:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...owerset+Respec
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...owerset+Respec
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...+respec+Respec
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ht=Full+Respec
Search is your friend.
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Originally Posted by Smash_Zone
On Free-form power selection:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...-form%2C+Power http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ight=free-form On full powerset respecs: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...owerset+Respec http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...owerset+Respec http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...+respec+Respec http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ht=Full+Respec Search is your friend. |
I know how to use a forum, but thanks for the sarcasm at any rate.
I'd like to thank the others for their comments to answer the question. I still feel they could greatly expand the available powersets, and find some way to allow folks to change their SECONDARY choice at least if they find the choice was lame later on...ESPECIALLY for returning characters. I have characters that are three years old that would be great to change the secondary choice since it was a bad choice back then. I hate the idea of losing the time on the character (free respecs and costume changes) just because the secondary choice was a bad one.
Early, early in game history, there were no archetypes. You picked from what were closer to power *pools* than power sets.
Result? Players went one of two ways: Gimped characters (I believe the typical example was someone who made an invulnerable flier. Yes, they could fly. And they were invulnerable. That was it. No attacks.) or tankmages that trivialized the game.
So we ended up with ATs.
Not to mention that, yes, it does help with balance.
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Ok, but I would have to ask as to what the harm would be in, say, being able to change the secondary power set at least.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Early, early in game history, there were no archetypes. You picked from what were closer to power *pools* than power sets.
Result? Players went one of two ways: Gimped characters (I believe the typical example was someone who made an invulnerable flier. Yes, they could fly. And they were invulnerable. That was it. No attacks.) or tankmages that trivialized the game. So we ended up with ATs. Not to mention that, yes, it does help with balance. |
I guess I should be more clear. You are not allowed to change your original Archetype and I am fine with that. What I feel the game should allow (at least once) is the choice to change your powerset choices you were given when you created your character.
I have one character for instance that is Scrapper (which I do not need to change, or see any reason to do so), the powerset choices are Martial Arts and Regeneration, which I do not find very entertaining. Changing to Dark armor or Super reflexes, IMO, are much more fun combinations. But there is no way to do that.
I don't see how changing the powersets you choose at character creation, at least once in the life of the character, would present balance issues.
I can see, however, how open choice may present a problem in that respect.
You mentioned being able to change what powersets you had once, what if you get sick/tired of the new sets do you then want to be able to do it again? There isn't a set in game that's gimped beyond playability and leveling is fairly easy, I have 4 alts sitting around 40 and I can't have spent more than 5-6 hours on any of them.
What combination is missing as far as it goes for choosing a primary and secondary?
I almost was going to say I would like a toon that changed forms and had different traits depending on what form they're in before remembering I'm trying to figure out how to build a tri form keld (which is the range/defense set as well, something people wanted for a long time back when you had to get to 50 to unlock EATs and VEATs)
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I honestly don't think it would be a balance issue. I don't even totally buy the idea that it would be prohibitively hard to code. But I do think the main reason is that the Devs don't want people leveling up a single level 50 character then using that one character to effectively have respec access to multiple level 50 powersets.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
I don't see how changing the powersets you choose at character creation, at least once in the life of the character, would present balance issues.
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I believe the Devs are "encouraging" the idea that you need to make multiple alts and have fun leveling up new characters. They don't really want us to be able to have access to all the powers of all the powersets of an AT without putting in the time and effort to "deserve" access to everything.
It's not a software limitation. It's a "the Devs want us to play the game the way they intended us to" issue.
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Well, the devs (to my recollection) have put forward three reasons:|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, but I would have to ask as to what the harm would be in, say, being able to change the secondary power set at least.
I guess I should be more clear. You are not allowed to change your original Archetype and I am fine with that. What I feel the game should allow (at least once) is the choice to change your powerset choices you were given when you created your character. I have one character for instance that is Scrapper (which I do not need to change, or see any reason to do so), the powerset choices are Martial Arts and Regeneration, which I do not find very entertaining. Changing to Dark armor or Super reflexes, IMO, are much more fun combinations. But there is no way to do that. I don't see how changing the powersets you choose at character creation, at least once in the life of the character, would present balance issues. I can see, however, how open choice may present a problem in that respect. |
1. As mentioned above, the whole "early/late blooming set" bit. They don't feel being able to switch between them would be good for the game. And
2. The work they've put into making the game alt-friendly. I mean, look at it - up to 36 (soon to be 48, unless they change that) slots per server, 15 servers (13 English-speaking,) and *all of them usable* (unlike, for instance, Aion, which had a bunch of servers, lot of slots, but only 8 characters *ever* available, and you could only make one side per server.) Leveling isn't that hard, they've made it easier to store and swap items and INF between them, etc.
3. Too much work to code (with too much possibility of things breaking) for the payback
And I'll give you reason 4, true now and more emphasized by the issue going live soon (tm) :
4. It would work against being able to sell slot unlocks if you could have, essentially, multiple characters "in one" by changing a powerset.
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Because in the AE a script is still running the show for the NPCs with those powers. In the game a human is picking the powers and when and how to use them. This makes a big practical difference in how those powers would get applied.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Here is one issue I have with this title. It seems that you have complete freedom when creating mobs for missions with respect to the pairing of power sets. A massive, even dizzying array of combinations is available, and it seems to me this is the way the main game should have been.
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Additionally I'd say the AE system is actually quite limited in what and how you can pick, and is nowhere as free form as it first appears.
If it were free form, it would be abusable, just as AE mobs are abusable. A breakable system with lots of chances for pitfalls doesn't sound particularly fun to me, and that's what our powerset system is designed to avoid.
Additionally, when you look at all the potential powers, there's no way they will all be equally useful on a 1 to 1 basis. Lumping them in groups as they are lets the designers still make less strong and situational powers, balance them with general utility powers and show off mega powers, and still get a healthy mix.
What you see as rigid restrictions I see as a chance for more robust and varied design.
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How do you know that those sets are more fun? What if you changed to /DA or /SR and suddenly realized... hey now, this set is EVEN WORSE! Time to raise it to two switches? And then when the next one still sucks? Just three, right? |
Originally Posted by quickfire
I have one character for instance that is Scrapper (which I do not need to change, or see any reason to do so), the powerset choices are Martial Arts and Regeneration, which I do not find very entertaining. Changing to Dark armor or Super reflexes, IMO, are much more fun combinations. But there is no way to do that.
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You should be able to see where I'm going with this.Also, what's stopping you from rerolling? You don't like MA/Regen? Just change it! Don't want to delete it? Make a new character! There are already ways you can deal with the problem. You could try arguing that those solutions aren't good enough, but right now you're not, you don't address them at all.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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No. Balance ALLOWS fun. It doesn't guarantee it, but a badly balanced game is NOT fun. Badly balanced games can end up one of the following ways:|
Originally Posted by quickfire
I am guessing the idea of balance plays into powerset match restrictions. Once again balance trumping fun, in this case a BIG fun factor.
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1) Everyone picks the same powers because they're the best. I think most people would be bored. I sure would.
2) Everyone is extremely powerful and can blow through the content. Then what do you do? Make another identical toon and start over?
3) Everyone is gimped and the game is frustrating.
4) Some people are gimped and get frustrated and leave the game. If "some" is large enough, the game fails.
Balance is one of the requirements for a game to be viable in the long term.
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You can already build a tankmage in this game, I have several, and you can already reroll an alt and get them to 50 inside several weeks if not a couple of days, the only downside being you lose your badges and extra stuff you've earned. I don't see the need for free-form character building or entire power set respecs (and I think the former does not make for a good game in the end, as others have said.)
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Everyone's already addressed the classic points. I'm going to opine that if such a change was implemented, you'd soon find it's not nearly as fun as you imagine. People tend to lose interest in grossly overpowered characters pretty fast, and grossly underpowered is frustrating. You'd soon find the forums full of suggested builds which would begin to seem a bit like the ATs we now know.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
I am guessing the idea of balance plays into powerset match restrictions. Once again balance trumping fun, in this case a BIG fun factor.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
It seems to me that having that kind of freedom would not only increase the diversity 10 fold in player character variety
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For me, a big motivation to invest time in the game is leveling characters with powersets I've never played before so I can unlock new powers. Imagine if you could unlock an entire new powerset just by respeccing a level 50 character. Until now the game has mostly made most its money off of subscriptions (may change with Freedom), so it should be no surprise that you wouldn't see a major shortcut like this.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
why can't you change your original power set choice when respeccing?
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And we've got more coming! |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Eh, you can already make hundreds and hundreds of different character powerset combos. I dare you to level them all to 50. So there's already more variety than you or I will use.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
It is also required that it actually works. And don't try to present the silly notion that it does because you managed to find the threads.
I know how to use a forum, but thanks for the sarcasm at any rate. |
I don't know Smash_Zone's posting history well enough to comment on whether or not they were being sarcastic and I'm not interested enough to go through their previous posts to generate an opinion about them.
I've found years old posts relatively quickly using the Search features here that I'd likely never have found on the old forums or it would have taken much much longer.
PRO-TIP: Hover your cursor over those links and look at the address they are pointing to. It shows how Smash-Zone entered the search criteria. For example, Free-form +Power as the keywords. The + or - before words gives better search results.
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As of today, it was something like 58 characters for a person to get one of each powerset to 50. Might of been some overlap, but not sure how much.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
As of today, it was something like 58 characters for a person to get one of each powerset to 50. Might of been some overlap, but not sure how much.
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...well, not consciously. But still!
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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That boat sailed in 2003.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, but I would have to ask as to what the harm would be in, say, being able to change the secondary power set at least.
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Didn't one of the Repeat Offenders folks actually manage that?|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
As of today, it was something like 58 characters for a person to get one of each powerset to 50. Might of been some overlap, but not sure how much.
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Me, I'm (generally) happy having one of each AT to 50, and... formerly having (bloody electric control! But I did ask for it...) one of each Control set to 50.
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HEY! |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
That boat sailed in 2003.
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Yeah, QL IIRC. That's who I was referencing.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Didn't one of the Repeat Offenders folks actually manage that?
Me, I'm (generally) happy having one of each AT to 50, and... formerly having (bloody electric control! But I did ask for it...) one of each Control set to 50. |
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Here is one issue I have with this title. It seems that you have complete freedom when creating mobs for missions with respect to the pairing of power sets. A massive, even dizzying array of combinations is available, and it seems to me this is the way the main game should have been.
I am guessing the idea of balance plays into powerset match restrictions. I can understand this, but rechoosing your secondary choice is not allowed. Only respeccing the points.
It seems to me that having that kind of freedom, or at least allowing an early rechoice of the secondary power sets would serve to allow players the opportunity to correct mistakes in the build, especially considering the freedom when creating mobs.
However, I recognize this could create balance issues in the game (and perhaps that is why the system is set up as it is now) and other games have had open system with obvious problems.
My question would then be this...Why do the restrictions on power sets in character creation exist, and why can't you change your original power set choice when respeccing?
Thanks for your input.