Draconian character creation power set availability due to balance issues?


Aett_Thorn

 

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Originally Posted by Eric Nelson View Post
I have to think that everyone is unique, and some would react one way, and others a different way. So really, it's something we just can't know.

But I will point out that this game offers its subscribers a plethora of character slots over quite a few servers. That suggests an environment that is particularly alt-friendly (in fact, actually encourages the creation of many toons). Hopefully newer players will either realize this, or have it pointed out to them if need be. All we can do is try.
Sure, but shortly it will only offer two. This is not to try and diminish your point, naturally, simply to point out the choices for free players (essentially an unlimited trial which hopefully leads to purchases or a subscription) will be more limited.


 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
Sure, but shortly it will only offer two. This is not to try and diminish your point, naturally, simply to point out the choices for free players (essentially an unlimited trial which hopefully leads to purchases or a subscription) will be more limited.
Limited in character slots, yes. That's the only way free players will be more limited once Freedom launches. In almost every other respect they will be far less limited. And removing most of those limits will be far cheaper than in the past.

The draconian removal of the level 14 limit for free players is but one example.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
Sure, but shortly it will only offer two. This is not to try and diminish your point, naturally, simply to point out the choices for free players (essentially an unlimited trial which hopefully leads to purchases or a subscription) will be more limited.
Actually, you apparently didn't read my post closely -- I used the word "subscribers" purposely. Free players only receive a taste of the game (and of course can purchase more ala carte if they wish), but subscribers are, and WILL REMAIN the primary focus of this game's management team.


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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
.for instance if you had chosen the wrong secondary, or even the supplemental pool set.
When you respec, you CAN change your power pool (Flight, etc) and the epic (APP/PPP) pools.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Eric Nelson View Post
Actually, you apparently didn't read my post closely -- I used the word "subscribers" purposely. Free players only receive a taste of the game (and of course can purchase more ala carte if they wish), but subscribers are, and WILL REMAIN the primary focus of this game's management team.
Ah. My mistake. I apologize. I would contend, however, that I expect most folks that are new to the game will enter it using the free method.


 

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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
When you respec, you CAN change your power pool (Flight, etc) and the epic (APP/PPP) pools.
Ah...yes, that's a dummy comment on my part. It didn't click that reallocating points means you can choose a new power pool.

Sorry, brain fart.


 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
Ah. My mistake. I apologize. I would contend, however, that I expect most folks that are new to the game will enter it using the free method.
Agreed. That makes it even more incumbent on us VIPs to help them out, answer questions and do what we can to show them how great our game is.


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Originally Posted by Eric Nelson View Post
Agreed. That makes it even more incumbent on us VIPs to help them out, answer questions and do what we can to show them how great our game is.
This. At the least i will try to be a bit more gregarious and dial down the snark slightly.


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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
This. At the least i will try to be a bit more gregarious and dial down the snark slightly.
But I do enjoy the snark so....

There are quite a few helpful folks in the game. More than I have seen in other games, including a few times I've heard veterans gifting large influence amounts to new players without them even asking for it.

That was impressive.


 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
More than I have seen in other games, including a few times I've heard veterans gifting large influence amounts to new players without them even asking for it.
There is no way in HECK that I will gift someone influence if they ask... only if they seem to be enjoying playing and indicate they are very new. Usually, this will occur while I am running a PUG, but sometimes it happens in other situations.

I suspect running the new Sewer Trial will be a great place to encounter these folks.



 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
There are quite a few helpful folks in the game. More than I have seen in other games, including a few times I've heard veterans gifting large influence amounts to new players without them even asking for it.

That was impressive.
Most of the time you see that happen is when a vet stumbles across a new player that has made an effort to flesh out his character with a bio and we want to encourage that kind of creativity.

Some of us even do drive by gifting during holidays.

The gifting has dropped since we started getting more inf beggars tho. They spoiled it for everyone by using the Friends list to keep track of the good Samaritans and harass them whenever they logged on, first with annoying requests for more inf, which escalated into obnoxious demands and even threats in a few cases.


 

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Unfortunately every game has folks like this...those that get very aggressive because they do not wish to work for what they have.

I've only had Inf problems on a few initial characters I rolled...since returning (and thanks to the open email to yourself) I have found it much easier to outfit my characters early on with a suitable amount of Inf.


 

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That's why I mentioned what I call drive by gifting. To avoid the inf beggars some of us quietly drop stuff on people without saying anything. If we see a nice costume, read a bio we like, or if we see new players helping others out we'll silently drop an expensive recipe, enhancement, inspiration, salvage on them and move off before they can figure out where it came from.

I hear other players do it more often during the holiday events.

Personally I use my second account when I'm in the mood to do gifting (and I can afford to activate it). I throw the alt on /hide and give away things I've emailed to that account. That way I'm never pestered by jerks demanding more free stuff, and I can still enjoy making someones day by complimenting the effort they put into their character.

I'm hoping the other good samaritans will also use secondary accounts to do more gifting once Freedom goes live and they realize like I did that it stops the jerks from abusing our generosity.


 

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Just a question, but what do other games allow? Full class respecs? Or full skill tree respecs?

I haven't played anything other than SWG and WOW so have no idea what the standard is.


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Originally Posted by Crime_of_Fashion View Post
Just a question, but what do other games allow? Full class respecs? Or full skill tree respecs?

I haven't played anything other than SWG and WOW so have no idea what the standard is.
It varies per game. I've seen several different types and honestly don't know where to start explaining how each one works. Maybe someone else can.


 

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"Did not meet expectations?"

Really?

This game is owned by a parent company that has proven itself (repeatedly) to not be the slightest bit shy about pulling the plug on underperforming games. (Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Lineage)

The fact that NCSoft not only kept the game alive, but hired more people to run it and gave it it's own development studio does not say to me that the game failed to meet expectations. Given how NCSoft treats games that don't make them money, it's a very safe bet to say that CoH exceeded their expectations by quite a bit.

Game development companies do not devote more resources to games that don't meet expectations. Especially companies with NCSoft's attitude toward underperforming games.

Just looking at the facts logically will debunk any notion that the game failed to meet expectations.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Same argument is posed for almost every game in existence by it's fans, including SWG.

It's not a stretch to expect folks were looking for a game launched online to break 200k subs, and certainly not be sub 100k.

But that's neither here nor there. There are reasons folks walked from this game. There is no way that I know of to be sure of what those reasons are.

The only thing I do know is that when I left last time I didn't say a word, seems like quite a few people have done the same. This time I chose to speak up.


 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
Same argument is posed for almost every game in existence by it's fans, including SWG.

It's not a stretch to expect folks were looking for a game launched online to break 200k subs, and certainly not be sub 100k.
Can you tell me how many MMOs before WoW broke 200K subscribers? Because I highly doubt that ANYONE expected CoH to break 200K when it first came out. I don't think that many people were expecting the ~150K that it got.

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But that's neither here nor there. There are reasons folks walked from this game. There is no way that I know of to be sure of what those reasons are.

The only thing I do know is that when I left last time I didn't say a word, seems like quite a few people have done the same. This time I chose to speak up.
And that's fantastic. But when you try to apply the reason for why you dislike the game to a broader population that you can't possibly know the reasons for why they left, your argument breaks down.

Extrapolating the reason for why you dislike the game into a reason why others dislike the game (or at least that it would bring in new subscribers) requires evidence to be believable. Otherwise, it really is just an opinion, and those don't really have a lot of credibility when things like money come along.


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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
Can you tell me how many MMOs before WoW broke 200K subscribers? Because I highly doubt that ANYONE expected CoH to break 200K when it first came out. I don't think that many people were expecting the ~150K that it got.



And that's fantastic. But when you try to apply the reason for why you dislike the game to a broader population that you can't possibly know the reasons for why they left, your argument breaks down.

Extrapolating the reason for why you dislike the game into a reason why others dislike the game (or at least that it would bring in new subscribers) requires evidence to be believable. Otherwise, it really is just an opinion, and those don't really have a lot of credibility when things like money come along.
As is yours of course. I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I think we can see plenty of players left (even though some folks here even dispute that), we can say it's at least likely there were some common reasons (it's almost impossible they all left for individual reasons, like some contend) and I pose why I might leave or why I left earlier, and leave it up to the devs.

Arguing as to whether the game has lost over half it's population is just like any other argument against a game posed to a fan. It's going to get picked apart and shut down.

It's the NGE syndrome. I learned long ago to ignore it. Some players here at least seem to be in denial like many other games.


 

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I'll give people 20M for SOs if they ask nicely. Past that...

I was on a TF with someone who was asking for advice on spending merit rewards. I advised A-merits, and she said she couldn't afford the conversion, so I sent her 40M to get her started.


 

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Also, let's take a look at the MMO subscription numbers post a few pages back. How many of the non-Big Name or non-Big Developer titles have lasted (and how many of those act like WoW and inflate their numbers by counting temporary accounts as full subscriptions)?

I see games like Age of Conan and Warhammer Online get upwards of 800K subscribers, and then are almost dead within a year. Rift might be doing the same thing. Star Wars Galaxies had numbers until SOE decided that it didn't like that. Dark Age of Camelot: petering out. With Going Rogue, I'm betting that we're beating out Everquest, Everquest II, and Ultima Online as they are declining.

I mean, according to the 50K-150K chart, only a few games seem to be on the upswing, including a game I've never heard of: Dofus (and by the looks of it, I'd say it's an Asian game). The others are Second Life, LotRO (although we'll have to see if that trend continues with it being FTP or not), and Eve Online (although didn't they just lose a huge number of subscribers en masse?).

However, through all of that, CoH's numbers have held relatively steady. I don't think that we've done as bad as you think we have. Consider a few facts:

1) Superheroes are very much a western phenomenon, for the most part, at least in terms of how this game portrays them

2) Cryptic Studios was a no-name studio when it was working on this game

3) The game lost the known-title backing of Champions in the development process, which made it a very risky venture

4) There was no Asian release until after the game was live (look at the big hitters on that list, and you'll find that most of them are huge in Asia), which probably hurt it's release numbers.


Considering all of that, CoH has outlasted some games, been a bigger hit than others, and is still running. I'd say it's a success, and I don't know how you'd prove otherwise from an objective standpoint.


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
As is yours of course. I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I think we can see plenty of players left (even though some folks here even dispute that), we can say it's at least likely there were some common reasons (it's almost impossible they all left for individual reasons, like some contend) and I pose why I might leave or why I left earlier, and leave it up to the devs.
I left. I got bored, because I'd done most of the content and the mechanics had gotten a bit repetitive after many years of it. Then, they added the Incarnate system... and then the first two iTrials. I came back for a month and played them a good bit, and then I let my account lapse. A few weeks back I resubbed, because i21 is going to have a lot of new content, and the mechanics have gotten better, plus many new powersets and other stuff on the horizon (I'm still not sure whether I'll go VIP or Preem, at least VIP for a while most likely).

Several friends have left over the years, for various reasons. Content got boring. PvP died a horrible death. A newer, shiner non-wow game came out. They just got bored. Lots of reasons- but never once has anyone claimed it's because I can't respec later to another AT!!!! A few people liked the idea of Champion's character creator and left for that for a while... then they were back. They hated it. Sounds good at first blush- but it doesn't work well in practice.

In some years, I'm sure someone will do it right- but it's not a small undertaking. Balance is a horrible nightmare... to fully balance it, you would likely end up with something that looks like ATs.


You're going based solely off your personal opinion. I've heard from many people, and never once has anyone claimed any of the things you did were the reason they left. I'm sure the Devs have already looked into it, and even asked people that have left (or, they read the countless "I'm leaving!!!" threads over the years where the person says why they're quitting in the most annoy way possible... reminds me of this thread).


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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!

 

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There are so many reasons why I don't believe someone would quit because they can't re-choose their archetype and powersets. The main one being; how did they get so far playing sets they don't like that it makes re-rolling look like too much work?


 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
As is yours of course. I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I think we can see plenty of players left (even though some folks here even dispute that), we can say it's at least likely there were some common reasons (it's almost impossible they all left for individual reasons, like some contend) and I pose why I might leave or why I left earlier, and leave it up to the devs.

Arguing as to whether the game has lost over half it's population is just like any other argument against a game posed to a fan. It's going to get picked apart and shut down.

It's the NGE syndrome. I learned long ago to ignore it. Some players here at least seem to be in denial like many other games.
Again, I'm arguing with your facts, not the interpretation of those facts.

1) Yes, players have left. Other players have joined. This has led to a fairly stable game population over the past few years.

2) I am sure that there were some common reasons that people left. I don't think that the AT system is one of those.

3) The game hasn't lost half it's population, at least not based on any numbers I've seen. Even in the charts that you can plainly see, the game peaked at the release of CoV at around 190K subscribers. The last numbers we saw put us above 125K (or 30K above your "half"). And those don't account for any gains from Going Rogue, I don't think.

So where are your facts?


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

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Originally Posted by quickfire View Post
As is yours of course. I get your point. I just don't agree with it. I think we can see plenty of players left (even though some folks here even dispute that), we can say it's at least likely there were some common reasons (it's almost impossible they all left for individual reasons, like some contend) and I pose why I might leave or why I left earlier, and leave it up to the devs.
I certainly don't need to be informed of the mechanics of how suggestions pass on to the devs, but as to your repeated suggestion that anyone should factor in the fact that at least *someone* might leave due to having no access to powerset respec of some kind, without any evidence to the contrary you can make the opposite assertion: adding it would also cost customers, and there's no reason to believe that it would save more than it would cost.

I would make the academic argument that it cost more than it saved for CO, for example. And I think they believe it also, which is why non-VIPs are much more significantly restricted. I believe they believe in order to keep the non-subscribers around, they need the replayability that archetypes offer, and their unlimited respec system does not.


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