Draconian character creation power set availability due to balance issues?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-08-31 08:29 in Player Questions
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I'll give you an example. |
Originally Posted by quickfire
I don't see how changing the powersets you choose at character creation, at least once in the life of the character, would present balance issues.
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As we all know, Shield Defense is a very powerful set in the late game, once you get Shield Charge and have enough slots to get to the soft cap easily.
The balance for that late game power is the fact that in the early levels of the game, Shield Defense is pretty squishy, because you don't have a whole lot of defense early on, and you lack some of the powers that makes Shield Defense so good.
Enter powerset respecs. Now you can level a Regeneration scrapper, which is powerful in the early game. Few things level through the first 25 levels or so faster than a regen.
Suddenly, you can level your character as a Regen and switch to Shield Defense at a level where Shield Defense starts getting good, completely bypassing the early level squishiness that is the price Shield pays for being so good later.
Or leveling a Fire/Rad controller. Fire Rad is a good set early, because Radiation Emission gets most of it's good powers before level 20. Level it to 38 and switch to Fire/Kin when you can get Fulcrum Shift. Or you could switch to Cold Domination when you reach the level you can get it's powerful debuffs.
If you look at it, it is like that across every AT. Powersets that get extremely powerful in the late game don't have much going for them early on. That is the balance point for them being so powerful later. Conversely, power sets like Regen that are strong in the early game don't really get a whole lot better in the late game. Basically, once you hit level 28 with a Regen, you are not going to get much better than you are right then.
If you could level as one of the sets that are good early and switch to a late-blooming set when it starts getting it's good powers, you would be destroying part of the balance between those sets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I still put 10 bucks on the fact when freedom hits, someday, you can change your primairy/secondairy, people are willing to pay for this, NCsoft wants the money.
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Even in the event NC Soft calculates they will make substantially less money by allowing it?
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
I still put 10 bucks on the fact when freedom hits, someday, you can change your primairy/secondairy, people are willing to pay for this, NCsoft wants the money.
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Less then earning now? Very very unlikely. Respecs, slots, powers, hell even entire IO sets can be bought from the store, additional to the VIP players continue to pay their monthly sub.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Even in the event NC Soft calculates they will make substantially less money by allowing it?
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50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Those don't have the potential to drastically cut down the amount of time people invest in playing the game. Being able to basically buy your way to 50 on a new powerset, I'd hazard, would result in many people spending a lot less time playing (which will translate into less money for NCSoft). The question is, does the shortening of play time and the corresponding less of incoming from that exceed the income made from lessing the powerset/AT respec (I'd say probably).
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Less then earning now? Very very unlikely. Respecs, slots, powers, hell even entire IO sets can be bought from the store, additional to the VIP players continue to pay their monthly sub.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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It would make xp boosters even more worthless than they are now, it would make people play less, there are multiple items that are only able to be used on one AT potentially lowering the revenue from that.
It's not hard to level, but if you did want to be able to buy a super respec how much would you pay for it? Also remember that if coding is an issue then that's time the devs are taking off new content and putting into making it possible.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
It seems to me that having that kind of freedom would not only increase the diversity 10 fold in player character variety...
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By my count (including sets announced for Freedom) there are 1,059 powerset combinations. Now this would include some "overlap" between ATs, as, for example, both Scappers and Brutes can make Elec/Shield and the like. While the difference between the two in the example may not be enough to some, its enough for me.
Thats only Prim/Sec combinations. If you included APP/PPP (which since you can change at anytime, I personally would not) the choices sky rocket to 8,292.
You'd need 23 servers (at the 48 characters max) to have every possible combination we will soon have, and 9 builds per character, to cover all the APP/PPP choices. Personally, seems like there's enough potential for diveristy right now.
If you feel that you see the same powerset combinations over and over, that is not a issue with the game; it gives us plenty of options. That's the player base making those decisions. Changing the game wouldn't change the player base, nor the decisions that they are making. (At least not directly, although as others have mentioned, it might cause enough people to rage-quit, that it may).
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Edit: Also that didn't included the EAT or VEATs.
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Well, Freedom in the current state aint different.. AE is the place to be and hit 50 in roughly 2 days max, the ability to change your primairy or secondairy once you hit 50 through the store, wont give that much impact.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Those don't have the potential to drastically cut down the amount of time people invest in playing the game. Being able to basically buy your way to 50 on a new powerset, I'd hazard, would result in many people spending a lot less time playing (which will translate into less money for NCSoft). The question is, does the shortening of play time and the corresponding less of incoming from that exceed the income made from lessing the powerset/AT respec (I'd say probably).
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Im not saying they will come soon or in this state, but there will be some sort of 'respec' eventualy available.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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I can do that right now. It is called, create a new character. "I really wish I had a DA/SS tank. I know, I'll start one!" Pretty simple.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
I still put 10 bucks on the fact when freedom hits, someday, you can change your primairy/secondairy, people are willing to pay for this, NCsoft wants the money.
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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I played in early, early beta of this game and back then you could mix and match powersets...the concept of AT's, while there, wasn't the same as it is now. I was actually quite disappointed when the devs went the way of the traditional MMO and gave us Tanks, Mages (blasters), Healers (Defs), etc. As a big Pen and Paper Champions fan, I really wanted the original model to work.
It didn't, for all the reasons already stated.
While I'm sure the devs COULD create a similar system, it somewhat invalidates 5+ years of development centered on game balance issues. Why they would throw most of that away so you could just create something that destroys their ideas of balance is beyond me.
The whole powerset respec, I'm betting, is a different matter. They will charge you for this soon enough. And when they can make money by letting you do it, they'll let you. Until then, creating more alts has been their way of prolonging the game.
And really, if I don't like a toon, I delete it. I've deleted 50's that were just taking up space. I delete toons all the time in the low 40's...by then I've got both Tier 9's and all but my Epics so I have a good idea of whether or not the late game (which takes up more time than the first 40 levels combined) is going to be enjoyable for me or not. If not...trash bin. No big deal really...just PL another to about 32 and then play it to test it out. Only takes a few hours to do that.
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Historically, I believe the reason is simply that it devalues leveling and devalues characters. If your character just becomes a name that can contain any powersets, and those powersets themselves are mutable with little restriction, you break some of the psychological attachment players in general make with their characters. That ultimately costs you players.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I don't think anybody actually mentioned the REAL reason but simply danced around it. Up to this point the game was subscription based. They want you to spend as much time as possible leveling a character as well as creating new characters to level up. Respecing power sets short circuits this and thus lowers their revenue. With Freedom such an ability wouldn't encourage purchasing more slots or going VIP for a F2P player.
Now if this was a stand alone or subscriptionless game like Guide Wars then there probably wouldn't be a problem. Remember the business plan for an MMO is to extract as much money each player can afford in exchange for enjoying the game. Before this week you didn't need to buy boosters or goody packs or box editions beyond the first one you purchased. They had to make them attractive enough while keeping the price in the "what the heck, why not" range. Now with Freedom that's lowered to "I'll buy that for dollar (or a quarter)". Even for people who are still VIP. |
You could get away with this if you have so much content that you still have massive replay value in characters being respeced and then running completely different content appropriate specifically to that new configuration. Neither City of Heroes today nor CO at any time in its existence has had enough content to do this effectively.
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Ok, so how about you set the secondary rechoice to before level 30? Or even better...
Given one total rebuild at level 10 (primary and secondary choices) and one secondary rechoice at level 20.
It's still early...by this time most folks will realize that they don't like the build they have and can change it without need for the dreaded "delete, reroll" that this game's reputation is plagued with at the moment.
Were not really talking about a change of archetype here...that would require a reroll and that is understandable. We are talking about a powerset choice mistake rectified fairly early in the game.
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Even then, I'd vote against it. Many powersets don't come into their own by level 10, or sometimes even level 20, before you put SOs into the powers. Giving a powerset respec before even giving the powerset a fair shake doesn't seem right.|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, so how about you set the secondary rechoice to before level 30? Or even better...
Given one total rebuild at level 10 (primary and secondary choices) and one secondary rechoice at level 20. It's still early...by this time most folks will realize that they don't like the build they have and can change it without need for the dreaded "delete, reroll" that this game's reputation is plagued with at the moment. Were not really talking about a change of archetype here...that would require a reroll and that is understandable. We are talking about a powerset choice mistake rectified fairly early in the game. |
Plus, there's the fact that the Devs themselves are against something like this, and have stated so multiple times.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by quickfire
Ok, so how about you set the secondary rechoice to before level 30? Or even better...
Given one total rebuild at level 10 (primary and secondary choices) and one secondary rechoice at level 20. |
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| the dreaded "delete, reroll" that this game's reputation is plagued with at the moment. |
Seriously, I've not heard much of any complaints about making new alts. Sure, people joke about alt-itis, but I've never understood that to mean they were generally unhappy with that. I *know* I for one have said that as if it were a curse, but I love having boatloads of alts. It's obviously only speculation on my part, but I suspect that many (most maybe) feel the same.
So, until such time as I believe that the game really has a plague on it's reputation based on having to create a new alt, I'll dismiss your idea as being work intended to solve a problem that just doesn't exist. And if it does exist for you, than I'll still dismiss it as work needed to solve a problem that isn't very far-reaching, and has a pretty decent alternative solution already available..
If floods of people chime in saying that the biggest problem with the game is a weak respec system, and that they'd never create new alts if only they could more easily respec existing alts into something different, I may well reverse my position, but I'd still be personally happy with the respecs as they currently exist, but I'd be willing to see them made more robust if it served to up the enjoyment of a majority of the players and didn't cause other, unintended negative effects.
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The dreaded "delete, reroll" was a problem IN 2004. When I started this game there was a guide I used, something like "BS/Inv for the first 20 levels" to get you to Stamina without having to do the dreaded delete, reroll. | It's still early...by this time most folks will realize that they don't like the build they have and can change it without need for the dreaded "delete, reroll" that this game's reputation is plagued with at the moment. |
... because there was no such thing as a respec and people were making serious mistakes.
People were rerolling FIFTIES because they'd made some mistakes. And back then it took 300 hours to get to fifty, if you were really pushing hard.
As far as balance and fun? I agree with whoever responded: no balance IS no fun. I remember the good old days when Dark Armor was a choice between "get beaten to death" and "get stunned, then beaten to death". (you had to choose between running armors. Either use your mez protection, OR your smash/lethal defense, OR your energy defense.) I remember when Invuln was ten times tougher than Ice, and two hundred times tougher than Blasters. Looking over at the person next to you and thinking what a chump you were at the starting screen... that doesn't happen nearly as much any more. Yeah, an En/Fire blaster still sucks, but it's not like the "Same damage, twice as long to fire the power off" problem it had compared to Ice/ in the old days.
As far as "not wanting to lose free respecs and free costume changes": Oh, please. I just took a level 50, recolored her powers, changed every single thing on the costume and it cost 2.5 million inf. Or, to put it another way, "just under two Rare salvage." Short-term petty greed is not an argument the Devs will give much respect to.
As far as "total rebuild at level 10"? What? Level 10 takes THREE HOURS AT MOST. If you're solo and you don't know what you're doing, it still takes THREE HOURS. (Under an hour when you've been playing a while.) If you don't have an hour to invest, MMOs are probably not the right hobby for you.
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Fair enough to the first comment. The fact that the devs are against it means next to nothing, my response to the second. There not exactly beating down the doors to subscribe to this game...perhaps the devs are in error in their judgment.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Even then, I'd vote against it. Many powersets don't come into their own by level 10, or sometimes even level 20, before you put SOs into the powers. Giving a powerset respec before even giving the powerset a fair shake doesn't seem right.
Plus, there's the fact that the Devs themselves are against something like this, and have stated so multiple times. |
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Originally Posted by Madadh
Hmm. I don't think the game's reputation is suffering from a plague, maybe the affliction is personal?
Seriously, I've not heard much of any complaints about making new alts. Sure, people joke about alt-itis, but I've never understood that to mean they were generally unhappy with that. I *know* I for one have said that as if it were a curse, but I love having boatloads of alts. It's obviously only speculation on my part, but I suspect that many (most maybe) feel the same. So, until such time as I believe that the game really has a plague on it's reputation based on having to create a new alt, I'll dismiss your idea as being work intended to solve a problem that just doesn't exist. And if it does exist for you, than I'll still dismiss it as work needed to solve a problem that isn't very far-reaching, and has a pretty decent alternative solution already available.. If floods of people chime in saying that the biggest problem with the game is a weak respec system, and that they'd never create new alts if only they could more easily respec existing alts into something different, I may well reverse my position, but I'd still be personally happy with the respecs as they currently exist, but I'd be willing to see them made more robust if it served to up the enjoyment of a majority of the players and didn't cause other, unintended negative effects. |
Again, fair enough to the first, though I think you meant a sarcastic dig somehow. Didn't quite understand the point however.
I really can't argue against the rest. It's your opinion, it's mine...it's how it works.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
The dreaded "delete, reroll" was a problem IN 2004. When I started this game there was a guide I used, something like "BS/Inv for the first 20 levels" to get you to Stamina without having to do the dreaded delete, reroll.
... because there was no such thing as a respec and people were making serious mistakes. People were rerolling FIFTIES because they'd made some mistakes. And back then it took 300 hours to get to fifty, if you were really pushing hard. As far as balance and fun? I agree with whoever responded: no balance IS no fun. I remember the good old days when Dark Armor was a choice between "get beaten to death" and "get stunned, then beaten to death". (you had to choose between running armors. Either use your mez protection, OR your smash/lethal defense, OR your energy defense.) I remember when Invuln was ten times tougher than Ice, and two hundred times tougher than Blasters. Looking over at the person next to you and thinking what a chump you were at the starting screen... that doesn't happen nearly as much any more. Yeah, an En/Fire blaster still sucks, but it's not like the "Same damage, twice as long to fire the power off" problem it had compared to Ice/ in the old days. As far as "not wanting to lose free respecs and free costume changes": Oh, please. I just took a level 50, recolored her powers, changed every single thing on the costume and it cost 2.5 million inf. Or, to put it another way, "just under two Rare salvage." Short-term petty greed is not an argument the Devs will give much respect to. As far as "total rebuild at level 10"? What? Level 10 takes THREE HOURS AT MOST. If you're solo and you don't know what you're doing, it still takes THREE HOURS. (Under an hour when you've been playing a while.) If you don't have an hour to invest, MMOs are probably not the right hobby for you. |
Short term petty greed. That is your synopsis. Luckily for me that means next to nothing. Also luckily for me you do not determine what has or does not have merit in this forum. So I suppose all is fair in that respect.
Since you asked what, I'll clarify. I do have an hour to invest. You do not determine what is the best hobby for me. But thanks for demonstrating some concern as to my leisure activities and attempting some modicum of internet wit in the process.
My suggestion, thankfully, still stands. That is, of course, unless you know where they are hiding the millions of players you seem to believe are filling this game with revenue.....
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Considering that you have zero proof that a change like this would bring in droves of players, I think that most of your argument is irrelevant. Going free to play should bring in a lot of players, does that invalidate your argument that this would be needed to get more players?|
Originally Posted by quickfire
Fair enough to the first comment. The fact that the devs are against it means next to nothing, my response to the second. There not exactly beating down the doors to subscribe to this game...perhaps the devs are in error in their judgment.
Again, fair enough to the first, though I think you meant a sarcastic dig somehow. Didn't quite understand the point however. I really can't argue against the rest. It's your opinion, it's mine...it's how it works. Ah, now this should be interesting. I assume by your comment "oh please" you consider the statement that I would prefer not to lose my time invested as perhaps....unreasonable? petty? childish? lazy? Any or all? Short term petty greed. That is your synopsis. Luckily for me that means next to nothing. Also luckily for me you do not determine what has or does not have merit in this forum. So I suppose all is fair in that respect. Since you asked what, I'll clarify. I do have an hour to invest. You do not determine what is the best hobby for me. But thanks for demonstrating some concern as to my leisure activities and attempting some modicum of internet wit in the process. My suggestion, thankfully, still stands. That is, of course, unless you know where they are hiding the millions of players you seem to believe are filling this game with revenue..... |
The fact is that it takes very little time to get up to the levels you're suggesting. At that point, it is fairly simple to just reroll the character if you don't want it anymore, or would prefer another set at that level. Even then, you've got no guarantee that the new powerset would meet your expectations anyways, so then you're back to square one.
The Devs have worked hard to make this an alt-friendly game. Why would they completely change that direction now, when there's no evidence that it would increase revenues?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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It's a fair argument. No, I can't prove it would bring in subscribers.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Considering that you have zero proof that a change like this would bring in droves of players, I think that most of your argument is irrelevant. Going free to play should bring in a lot of players, does that invalidate your argument that this would be needed to get more players?
The fact is that it takes very little time to get up to the levels you're suggesting. At that point, it is fairly simple to just reroll the character if you don't want it anymore, or would prefer another set at that level. Even then, you've got no guarantee that the new powerset would meet your expectations anyways, so then you're back to square one. The Devs have worked hard to make this an alt-friendly game. Why would they completely change that direction now, when there's no evidence that it would increase revenues? |
What I can prove is that what they have now has not.
Now, what part of what they have now has not brought in the numbers? Who can say. I certainly can't. It's all speculation of course. But I'd bet a gold coin SOMETHING, or any number of things in this game have caused folks to walk on to greener pastures in their eyes.
I can't offer proof, I can only offer a different viewpoint than the ones presented in this forum over these many years that the game has underperformed.
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What?|
Originally Posted by quickfire
It's a fair argument. No, I can't prove it would bring in subscribers.
What I can prove is that what they have now has not. |
What on earth are you talking about?
This is one of the most successful, highest-population MMOs of all time. Just because it isn't WOW doesn'6t mean it's BAD.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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LOL.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
What?
What on earth are you talking about? This is one of the most successful, highest-population MMOs of all time. Just because it isn't WOW doesn'6t mean it's BAD. |
You can't possibly be serious.
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Actually, the fact the Devs are against it means everything. They are the ones in charge. If they don't want it, even if every single player does want it, it doesn't happen. Since the number of players that want something like this is far less than 100%, and the Devs have said it would take huge amounts of work and code re-writing, and no one has actually presented an argument that it would actually be a good thing for the game, I am not going to hold my breath that it will ever happen. Thank goodness.
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Originally Posted by quickfire
The fact that the devs are against it means next to nothing, my response to the second. There not exactly beating down the doors to subscribe to this game...perhaps the devs are in error in their judgment.
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Originally Posted by quickfire
LOL.
You can't possibly be serious. |
Why yes, he is.
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It means nothing, absolutely positively nothing with respect to folks posting comments about what they believe could be improvements. No argument is going to change that absolute fact.|
Originally Posted by Justice Blues
Actually, the fact the Devs are against it means everything. They are the ones in charge. If they don't want it, even if every single player does want it, it doesn't happen. Since the number of players that want something like this is far less than 100%, and the Devs have said it would take huge amounts of work and code re-writing, and no one has actually presented an argument that it would actually be a good thing for the game, I am not going to hold my breath that it will ever happen. Thank goodness.
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They are not in charge of player opinions.
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And you use the very charts that disprove both opinions. Ok.|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Why yes, he is. |
You know, it's funny. I almost started to attempt to justify my opinion why this game has not been that successful...nice try.
I think we will just leave it at that. After all, the sun is blue....right?
I don't think anybody actually mentioned the REAL reason but simply danced around it. Up to this point the game was subscription based. They want you to spend as much time as possible leveling a character as well as creating new characters to level up. Respecing power sets short circuits this and thus lowers their revenue. With Freedom such an ability wouldn't encourage purchasing more slots or going VIP for a F2P player.
Now if this was a stand alone or subscriptionless game like Guide Wars then there probably wouldn't be a problem.
Remember the business plan for an MMO is to extract as much money each player can afford in exchange for enjoying the game. Before this week you didn't need to buy boosters or goody packs or box editions beyond the first one you purchased. They had to make them attractive enough while keeping the price in the "what the heck, why not" range.
Now with Freedom that's lowered to "I'll buy that for dollar (or a quarter)". Even for people who are still VIP.
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