What kind of reaction time do you think City of Heroes should demand?
Interesting topic. I share your feelings during AV fights, where I'm basically standing there, going "click.... click.. click..." and watching their HP dwindle. They're mixing it up with things like Anti-Matter and Col. Duray with the "Avoid the marks on the ground" idea, and those require both knowledge of what the hell is happening and reaction time, but it still really doesn't feel exciting. It's a pretty fine line, and I doubt there's a way to mix together "exciting fast reactions" and "Everyone knows what they're doing" very well. I, personally, prefer things that require you to pay attention and react to a changing environment. Like, at certain points during the fight the floor sinks into lava and you have to get to higher ground while fighting the AV. I'd prefer even that to be somewhat random though, to mix up encounters, and that's tech that goes beyond the average MMO, even with all our new shiny updates.
On the flip side, I think missions should be faster paced. Even in a huge group of foes, there's very little urgency. You may need to click Hibernate quickly to avoid death, but that's about it. I personally fight minions like I was actually in a movie- I leap over guys and hit one to stun him, then spin and kick another and leap over the third to hit the fourth who was about to shoot me. I'm constantly moving around and usually take most of the enemies out at about the same time, because that's more exciting to me. I don't get hit less or do more damage, but it helps immersion and it helps me not feel like I'm standing there getting shot while beating the stunned guy for five minutes. Perhaps I was spoiled by Batman: Arkham Asylum, where a slow reaction time could have a fatal consequence. I really, *really* liked the fighting in that game.
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Personally, a reaction time of *around* 1 second is what i think is suitable for "MMO" game play, at the high end, with more leeway in the early stage of a game
That takes into consideration the typical lag of around 250ms, occasional "hunt and peck" with fingers or mouse for abilities (if reactionary), and the occasional time it takes for powers to activate.
Past the one second delay though (ie 2 to 3 seconds) it then starts to feel more turn based to me, and the fun starts to go away.
Now, saying that, I have been involved (in another MMO) in fights that had 1500 people involved. Depending on how much notice we (and the developers had), it has been "smooth as butter play", which really made it dynamic, and also 60 second lag times, where you had to plan way in advance what you were going to do. Both versions were fun for me (and i wasn't on the winning side in all cases)... but when you can spend 10+ seconds before you do anything (ie large ship combat) I dont find that enjoyable, the smaller ship classes (ie the around 1 second reaction time) i have a lot more fun
I prefer pen and paper/turn based RPGs, so reaction time is not something I really care about. It needs to be fast enough to make the animations continue to run smoothly, but other than that, I don't value it. The longer the better.
Honestly, if I want a game with reaction time I'll play a console game or a shooter. I don't look for that in my MMO's with the possible exception of outer space ship-to-ship combat, which pretty intrinsically falls into the "shooter" category anyway.
This game, to me, is relaxation, so I do not want to deal with fast reaction time. As SlickRiptide said, if I want a game with reaction time I'll play a shooter. Those don't relax me, and I while they are fun when I'm in the mood, I can't play multi-hour marathon sessions like I can here.
So, to me, CoH's current reaction time is almost perfect.
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Stalker Placate has a similar problem - because its Hidden status is so easy to interrupt, even with good timing you'll rarely have more than about half a second to a second in order to capitalize on the Hidden critical. If you need to swap targets (so you don't break your own Placate effect) or find better positioning... Well, you better have quick fingers because you'll most likely lose that effect entirely.
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See bolded section: Situationaly, maybe. Higher level stalkers have access to Elude and such powers, I've used the power pool heal self before in the middle of combat with that; eating some purples before Placate could help as well.
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That said, Stalkers in general are a somewhat fast AT that does require a lot of quick thinking and quick reactions to get a decent benefit of Inherent gimmick, which Stalkers really need to lest they fall behind in general performance. As such, they are probably an example of the "faster" ATs that require a much more precise reaction time than, say, a Brute, even a Brute of the same powersets (DB/SR, say).
That really doesn't change my preference, though - I like having time to think on my feet as opposed to being required to operate on instinct and muscle memory, so my own preference of 2-6 seconds of reaction time stands. Call it a comfort level.
At the same time, we've already seen comments that range in preference from sub-second reaction times to "infinite" reaction times, which makes it seem like the spread of opinions is even wider than I expected.
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Interesting question. My answer is: roughly the timescale of the average cast time of the average attack, which at the moment is approximately one to one and a half seconds.
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Right where it is. Faster and I can't eat lunch while playing. Slower and I'd get bored standing around.
Interesting question. My answer is: roughly the timescale of the average cast time of the average attack, which at the moment is approximately one to one and a half seconds.
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Then again, this raises the question of whether we should allocate time in which people can make decisions, or if we should expect people to always know what to do before they are required to do it. Should I decide my next attack right before I fire it based on how much health my enemy has, how many enemies are clustered, what enemies are in the area and so forth, or should I simply be expected to have a static attack chain?
Should we be expected to act or react, so to speak.
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Personally, from experience, I think the best fit for City of Heroes is reaction time which never gives you less leeway than about 2 or 3 seconds, and usually gives you a good 5 or 6 to react.
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Honestly, if I want a game with reaction time I'll play a console game or a shooter. I don't look for that in my MMO's with the possible exception of outer space ship-to-ship combat, which pretty intrinsically falls into the "shooter" category anyway.
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One of the things I like about the mostly instanced nature of CoH is that it allows a player some control over the pace of the game and accommodates a variety of play-styles. This, of course, assumes that you are either running solo or teamed with like-minded individuals. If you want to be more tactical, trying to break up large groups with pulling, being careful not to take on too much aggro at once, you usually can. If you prefer to use brute force to steamroll, you can do that too. MMOs which use more "open world" content don't allow this because there's always the chance that groups can respawn around you at any moment and quickly overwhelm you.
Ironically, my girlfriend can't play CoH for an extended period of time because she finds it makes her feel physically exhausted. She says the game is too fast paced for her. She prefers that well-known, overrated, fantasy based MMO which is more open-world.
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Curious what class your girlfriend plays and whether she does dungon runs and high end raiding or not?
As the 'ranged DPS/Pet class' in that game doing raiding I was constantly watching things like shot timers to make sure I was doing good DPS, seeing which buffs have just procced to fire off what ability etc. All that along with watching for boss abilities etc. I would say that CoH is far LESS frantic than the big Gorilla of the MMO world especially during the raiding scene.
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For me, any reaction time really. I play all sorts of games on all kinds of systems and I'm very comfortable with anything from Counter-Strike to Final Fantasy Tactics.
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The game should require you to react by your third move.
A pace that requires the player to react during their current power animation is bad: the game simply won't let you do it. Requiring you to react for your next power activation is also problematic: you've probably already got that power queued up, and you can't always change it. Your third move, however, is completely free: you can't queue it up, and even if you've got an autofire power ready to go, you can override it.
That's less higher level Stalkers and more Stalkers of a couple of powersets, most notably Super Reflexes and sometimes Ninjutsu. I suspect an argument could be made for Dark Armour and its to-hit debuffs, but I don't have a Dark Stalker to verify. However, sets like Regeneration, Electric Armour and even Willpower don't really have much defence to speak of if they have any at all. Defence certainly helps with reaction times in these situations, but not all Stalkers can rely on that, and the reaction time bottleneck lies in Placate's own design in activating the Hidden status before the Stalker is able to act or react, impeded by the power's own animation time.
That said, Stalkers in general are a somewhat fast AT that does require a lot of quick thinking and quick reactions to get a decent benefit of Inherent gimmick, which Stalkers really need to lest they fall behind in general performance. As such, they are probably an example of the "faster" ATs that require a much more precise reaction time than, say, a Brute, even a Brute of the same powersets (DB/SR, say). |
This makes me reaction time perhaps somewhat less critical, but like you, I prefer having to think quickly (and accurately) on my feet when I play. Thus my love for Stalkers! Mind you, in an old-school tab targeting combat system (with rooting, no less!), the combat pace is pretty leisurely all around. Coming out of the shooter world so long ago (and currently playing an MMO with "real" targeting), I've come to appreciate that CoX allows me to relax a bit and RP, even in combat. =P
Not saying I'm All That, mind...but years of getting curbstomped if I didn't do everything right with my Stalkers can make even a mook like me halfway good.
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For me, any reaction time really. I play all sorts of games on all kinds of systems and I'm very comfortable with anything from Counter-Strike to Final Fantasy Tactics.
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I'll go with "this" ^
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ITo me, what makes a role-playing game a role-playing game is that it is your character's stats and abilities that matter much more than your own. It's the nature of the beast that a computer based MMO can't rely ENTIRELY on character stats in the way that old school pen-and-paper RPGs do, but getting as close as possible is a "good thing" in my opinion.
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Now that that's no longer true, I find myself less willing to do that (can't talk specifics, since as far as I know the idiotic restriction on talking about other games is still in place...and is still failsauce). I've tried a couple conventional-combat MMOs recently, and just couldn't get into the combat. It doesn't bother me in CoX, but that's more a matter of good friends, beloved characters, and a mature, well-written game than anything to do with the combat.
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This game, to me, is relaxation, so I do not want to deal with fast reaction time. As SlickRiptide said, if I want a game with reaction time I'll play a shooter. Those don't relax me, and I while they are fun when I'm in the mood, I can't play multi-hour marathon sessions like I can here.
So, to me, CoH's current reaction time is almost perfect. |
I was going to ask why you felt that was the average, but then I saw who's posting
![]() Then again, this raises the question of whether we should allocate time in which people can make decisions, or if we should expect people to always know what to do before they are required to do it. Should I decide my next attack right before I fire it based on how much health my enemy has, how many enemies are clustered, what enemies are in the area and so forth, or should I simply be expected to have a static attack chain? Should we be expected to act or react, so to speak. |
The logic, so to speak, is that the *fastest* activity rate the game's design incorporates is the execution of the full attack chain. Generally speaking, all other activities are slower than that. The attack chain sets the "tempo" of player activity, and also enforces a certain amount of time during which the players cannot take additional actions. It is this window of time and this tempo that represent the minimum reaction time the game should expect from its players under most circumstances. The floor, if you will, not necessarily the target.
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What kind of reaction time are YOU comfortable with and why do you feel that way?
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I want my keyboard to sound like I have 20 seconds to type the Gettysburg Address from start to finish with a gun pointed at my head if I fail.
This game is a lot slower than that.
In an effort to make this less of a binary choice (this time around), I'd like to pose to you an open question: If you had a choice in the matter, what kind of reaction time would you like the game to demand from you? I'm sure no-one likes a game that's far too fast to react to, and I'm equally sure no-one likes a game that's so static it puts you to sleep, so there has to be a golden middle. Where that is is, I'm sure, different for all of us. So where's yours?
Feel free to measure reaction time in any manner whatsoever that you're comfortable with. Seconds, real world reference points, existing animations, whatever you like.
Now, I don't like leaving questions bare, so let me elaborate a little bit. We all know that City of Heroes is not a fast action games that relies on twitch reflex and split-second timing. Even at the best of times, it's just not designed to do that. However, as MMO goes, it's also by FAR not one of the slower ones. Without a constant auto-attack and with so many of our powers needing positioning or situational awareness to use properly, there's still a lot in the game to keep track of in real time.
I'm also aware that the reaction time needed to play well varies from character to character. Take a Bots/Traps Mastermind, for instance, and you can lay down you traps, go have lunch and the game will have pretty much played itself while you were gone. The reaction time of that character can sometimes be minutes. By contrast, hop on a Fire/Fire Blaster and take on something dangerous. You can usually sneeze long enough for you to get killed in the meantime.
Personally, from experience, I think the best fit for City of Heroes is reaction time which never gives you less leeway than about 2 or 3 seconds, and usually gives you a good 5 or 6 to react. Think your typical Energy Syphon from our friendly neighbourhood Protean. There currently are a few spots in the game that giver rather less of a time window than this, however. Most notably, we have the added critical chance that Eagle's Claw gives to the other Martial Arts attacks, which only extends to a little under half a second after the end of the animation, and with a ping time of 250-300ms like I have, that's really not a whole lot of time to react unless you've already queued up an attack.
Stalker Placate has a similar problem - because its Hidden status is so easy to interrupt, even with good timing you'll rarely have more than about half a second to a second in order to capitalise on the Hidden critical. If you need to swap targets (so you don't break your own Placate effect) or find better positioning... Well, you better have quick fingers because you'll most likely lose that effect entirely.
On the other end of the scale are standard issue AV fights, especially the fight against Reichsman. I'm not sure these even require reactions at all, much less a measurable reaction time, as I usually fight Reichsman with one hand on the keyboard and the other head supporting my giant head in a vision of absolute boredom. These kinds of fights occasionally require you to react to changing circumstances, but those reactions usually occur on preset triggers that most players know about hours ahead of time.
But, of course, that's just me. What kind of reaction time are YOU comfortable with and why do you feel that way?