What kind of reaction time do you think City of Heroes should demand?


Arcanaville

 

Posted

I like the game as it is now. No changes please.


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Posted

I'm pretty comfortable with the current reaction speed the game generally demands of me.


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Posted

Most of the game play is well-paced. There have been improvements in the past. Some things limit folks with less than bleeding edge hardware. I used to _hate_ zoning into missions in Grandville to find my character face down at the feet of Arachnos without even giving my character the chance to exit the mission before defeat. At least mastermind pets zone with the character so the masterminds don't enter completely defenseless. Some ambushes quickly dispatch the unsuspecting (I am looking at you, ya big Malta cheaters).

One of the few annoying things is the onscreen notice that so and so is powering up his super duper orbital energy lance. I would sooner have the notice in the npc chat like when the mastermind pets confirm their actions.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollhouse View Post
Bit of a Stalker specialist here (along with my beloved D3s...), and yeah, /DA is kind of like that. I've also noticed that /Nin (by far my favorite Stalker secondary) is much less reliant on Placate than most other. There are other aggro-management tools in its toolbox. Of course, I really don't play my Stalkers in the "AS-and-bail" manner; mine tend to stick around and scrap it out...and I build them to survive that. It's amazing how liberating a Stalker from so much reliance on Placate can change things (my "Stalker main.," Luna Faraday, does through entire solo missions - on pretty high diff settings - without using Placate, at least now and then).
I'm not really talking about a reliance on Placate so much as on capitalising on its benefits. Placate provides the ability to take a single enemy out of the fight for a considerably longer amount of time than Smoke Flash does, and it gives the opportunity for a free critical. Neither of the power's aspects requires the Stalker to run away to capitalise on, but both can be fouled up by poor timing. When you Placate, the Hidden status of your character is restored towards the beginning of the power, and it's very possible for you to be shot before even the end of the animation, causing the power to fail before you can make use of it. The only realistic way to guarantee you'll be able to make use of your Hidden critical is to somehow time your Placate in-between enemy attacks, but with four or five enemies shooting you out of sequence, that's a VERY tight reaction time. This also gives you very little time to change positioning between Placate and attack, for instance if you want to use Head Splitter to snag multiple enemies and go for multiple criticals.

Overall, the time frame of making use of Placate is VERY tight, which is why I've always suggested making the Placate Hidden status immune to being suppressed by outside damage for at least two or three seconds after you Placate, but still suppressible by your own attacks, just so that the player can get a longer window of opportunity without feeling such immediate pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollhouse View Post
Ah, the beauty of diversity! I feel the exact opposite (although I am by no means saying I'm right and you're wrong...it's just a matter of preference). To me, the RPG-heavy bias in MMO combat systems has always been the fly in the ointment for me. As far as basic combat gameplay goes, I've always much preferred shooters and their reliance on player aiming, etc. To me, the ideal is a reticule-and-hitbox targeting system with significant reliance on player ability, but with the outcome influenced to some degree by character build/gear/what-have-you. Thing is, until recently, I couldn't get that in an MMO, so I was willing to tolerate "build wars" RPG-style tab targeting combat in order to get all the other stuff I love about MMOs.
To be honest, I've always preferred action games, myself, though that's for reasons other than skill and reactions. In a stat-based RPG, the difficulty of an encounter depends primarily on the character build I brought. What this means is that "challenge" usually means less an actual challenge and more a build requirement, in the sense that "You must have this power and this many of that stat or you can go home and cry to your mommy." I've often been told that running bosses aren't annoying and difficult to stop because you can always hold them. What one does in the absence of holds is "get holds from somewhere anyway." I've always seen heavily stat-based RPGs are more like pokemon battles, in the sense that you prepare a character and then send it off on its own to lock swords with another's character, where your general input is largely confined to how you build.

I've played my fair share of action games before, and the reason I like them so much is that in them, success very often comes down to what I do and almost never to what I bring to the fight. In fact, one of the fastest ways to "ruin" the action of an action game for me is to tell me to just go level up and come back, and suddenly everything will be much easier. As much as I love Symphony of the Night, that aspect of it really ruined my experience with it. Of course, this doesn't mean I like twitch reflex games just because they're "action." I gave up on Devil May Cry 4 when I realised I had to try and time a "charge" function with the hit if I wanted to build up... Whatever that was called. I also just about gave up on Onimusha 3: Demon Siege when I realised that to counter-attack certain enemies, I had a window of opportunity of a single frame of animation. Action game is one thing, and it can very much have a wide, forgiving window of reaction time. A twitch game is quite another.

Of course, that doesn't mean I can't play RPGs just because fights are decided before they even begin or subject to the whims of the not so RNG. It just means that I don't play them for the challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Well, you asked about reaction time, so that's my opinion of minimum reaction time.
Gotcha, and thank you. I seem to have misunderstood before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

My answer is that this game does it right in that there is a variety.

You can pick powersets that give you different varying effective battle speeds/reaction times, and in some cases, seek out different enemies that do the same. For instance, I find battles against Malta to pace very differently than battles against similar-level Carnies.

I don't think the game should force the same reaction times on all players. I like being able to vary my needed twitch level to some extent with my mood and current degree of caffienation/sleep deprivation.

The hard part, from a design point of view, would seem to go back to the idea of one of your other threads: keeping challenge consistent between slow and fast play. But I think this game does a fair job of that as well.

Maybe somewhere, like on an official wiki, they could label the various enemy groups to indicate the design-intended twitch levels. Something like "these guys require fast reaction times" or "these guys are fairly slow, but hit hard."


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Posted

Before CoH, I didn't play MMOs. I played online, competitive team FPS games. One of the main things that attracted me to CoH, besides its comic-book superhero theme, was how FPS-ish it felt. I think about 1s or 1.5s is about right for me.


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Posted

I like it where it is now.
Champions Online demanded a higher reaction time due to the blocking mechanism, and while that was nice for a change, I prefer the way City of Heroes plays.

There is lag compared to single player console games.
I've observed some rather odd adaptation to lag in myself from playing the game a lot. I know how the AI behave roughly, and I'm planning out moves in my head like a decision tree as I play. eg "I'll jump there, fire this attack on him, then that attack on the second minion, but if I miss the first I'll do this instead..." I think that it feels more realtime for me than it actually is because of this predictablity, and the 5% chance to miss no matter what keeps it interesting enough because it forces me to make backup plans as I fight.

There are a couple of cases where the AIs move too fast.

1) Sappers. They seem to be able to fire their guns round corners with zero pause or animation time as soon as you're in field of view. Most enemies dont do this.

2) Master Illusionists. They summon their illusions at the drop of a hat, and nothing short of a Domination hold seems to stop them. On my Gravity Controller I could Lift, Hold and Hold again before they hit the floor on any other enemy but these - they seemed to have the ability to summon duplicates in mid air.

(I know I've picked two favourite bugbear enemies here, but the speed is part of the problem. Im pretty sure this isn't just my skewed perceptions)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
But, of course, that's just me. What kind of reaction time are YOU comfortable with and why do you feel that way?
I prefer games that have utterly no reliance on twitch. COH is a little too fast to be comfortable for me as-is. That Other Super Hero Game is about the limits of my reaction speed. That Other Other Super Here Game looks to be twitchy enough that I'm never going to be able to play it; the downside of it being controller friendly.

I have already quit a SciFi MMO that ramped up its' ground combat speed to be faster than I can handle. I have a lifetime subscription and had spent nearly that much again in buying everything off their cash shop. I can't play it now. It is literally too twitchy for me to keep up. I'm dead before I get to press more than a couple buttons. So I'm out $600 because of a pacing change. (No, there is no way for me to adapt. Being disabled sucks.)

If they are to change the pacing of COH, I'd rather they slow it down than speed it up. If they speed it up too much ... I'm effectively banned from yet another of my favorite games. I'd rather not repeat the experience.


 

Posted

well, in general i like very fast twitch games, like guilty gear/street fighter 4 fast. but for coh, it has kind of a legacy being 7 years old, so where it is is good. latency always seem like an issue in online games, and as chase has pointed out, coh often cheats on locations of where you actually are, so too much reliance on actual reflexes would be problematic for the game itself.