Petless Masterminds. Possible? Worth it?

It would make about as much sense as playing a melee type where you take no shield and no mez protection and use pool powers for your attacks.

Ah yes, reminds me of Brawlman.

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Originally Posted by Angelxman81 I mostly play melee characers, and some ranged/support too, but always DPS based. I mean, scrappers, brutes, blasters, dominators and corruptors. I have this crazy thing in my mind, about petless masterminds. How would they work? Soloing possible with a, lets say demon (Whip) Storm, Heat mastery? Anyone got any experience with this weird thing? Are they worth it to try and level? Thank you!

I have done this. I got a petless mastermind up to 19, and respec'd into a real MM out of frustration, and eventually deleted him since I have three other MMs who are more fun to play and higher level. What I ended up being was a terrible corruptor. It was fun until the novelty wore off (about level ten or so), then the excessive endurance usage (MMs have their endurance usage increased due to not using any endurance for pets' attacks) and abysmally few attacks (even supplemented with Sands of Mu; this was before I got the other two vet attack choices, and before easy transfers for Inventions temps, and waaayyyyyy before Inherent Fitness) just grated on my nerves. To be honest, I'm kind of surprised I got it up to 19; I am NOT shy about respec'ing or rerolling or deleting characters I'm not having fun with, so going eight or so levels beyond the fun point is kind of epic for me.

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Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

I've done it. I've got a petless Demon MM/Thermal, yes, for the whip attacks and because I CANNOT STAND the demon pets. I hate them sooo much, but I love the whip attacks, so there I am.

Her build is actually pretty good, she's mostly softcapped for defense, and she does decent damage. I play her in a trio with my husband and be friend, and I don't feel particularly gimped, though I realize I'm stretching the concept past the AT.

If that earlier post about whip assault going in the Paragon store is ACTUALLY true, I will reroll her in a HEARTBEAT. Like I said, I didn't really want an MM, let alone a demon MM (for some reason, the AT does not click with me at all) but I love the look of the whip and I've got the luxury of being able to roll one and play with friends who won't hassle me about it.

Did this back when COV came out and got it to 20. The main problem is kill speed and endurance usage, but the endurance bit should be better now that we have inherent stamina. Pick up pool attacks -- air sup is great -- to supplement your 2 single target attacks. Aid self if you don't have a self-heal.

There's nothing to preclude you from getting pets even though you are playing petless. You don't need to summon them. If you end up in a team, you have the choice of deciding to summon the pets.

Worth it -- depends on what you mean by worth it. It's certainly worth the entertainment value, like a not-serious project to work on. But worth it as it's going to go places and melt faces, no.

Petless Masterminds are in the same level of Crazy as this build.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Brute
Primary Power Set: Electrical Melee
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Havoc Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Jacobs Ladder -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(15), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(15), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 4: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), RctvArm-ResDam(11), RctvArm-EndRdx(13)
Level 6: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 8: Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 10: Hover -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(23), DefBuff-I(23)
Level 12: Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-ResDam(25), RctvArm-EndRdx(25), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(27), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(27), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 16: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Aid Self -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(31), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(31), IntRdx-I(33)
Level 20: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 22: Jump Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 24: Acrobatics -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(37), KBDist-I(37)
Level 26: Weave -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(34), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(34), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 28: Air Superiority -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 30: Stimulant -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Resuscitate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Group Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Spirit Shark -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42)
Level 44: Arctic Breath -- ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(45), ImpSwft-Acc/EndRdx(45), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(45), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(46), ImpSwft-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Summon Guardian -- SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg(A), SvgnRt-Dmg/EndRdx(48), SvgnRt-Acc/EndRdx(48), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SvgnRt-Acc(50), SvgnRt-PetResDam(50)
Level 49: Bile Spray -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(43), Heal-I(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(40), EndMod-I(43)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 2% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 2% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 2% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 2% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 2% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 2% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 2% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 2% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 29.3% Defense(Smashing)
• 29.3% Defense(Lethal)
• 5.81% Defense(Fire)
• 5.81% Defense(Cold)
• 8% Defense(Energy)
• 8% Defense(Negative)
• 3% Defense(Psionic)
• 21.8% Defense(Melee)
• 7.38% Defense(Ranged)
• 8.63% Defense(AoE)
• 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 3% Enhancement(RunSpeed)
• 3% Enhancement(JumpHeight)
• 3% Enhancement(FlySpeed)
• 3% Enhancement(JumpSpeed)
• 112.4 HP (7.5%) HitPoints
• MezResist(Confused) 2.75%
• MezResist(Held) 4.95%
• MezResist(Immobilize) 21.5%
• MezResist(Sleep) 4.4%
• MezResist(Stun) 6.6%
• 10% Resistance(Smashing)
• 10% Resistance(Lethal)
• 12.2% Resistance(Fire)
• 12.2% Resistance(Cold)
• 10% Resistance(Energy)
• 10% Resistance(Negative)
• 10% Resistance(Toxic)
• 10% Resistance(Psionic)

I made a petless mastermind (or henchmanless, at any rate--it was demon summoning/traps) and got it to 50, mostly solo, partly on teams, and it wasn't hard, and I found it very fun. Since then, I got Ninja Run and the game has received upgrades, so now my mastermind can run without henchmen, but I've got the henchman powers too.

While I would never dictate how anybody plays the game, and while a petless MM is certainly POSSIBLE, I will point out there were people trying this some time ago and I can remember kicking a few of them off my teams because they were entirely worthless. Their damage is miniscule, they have almost no crowd control, and their buffs/debuffs are going to be better from a controller/corruptor/defender. And that's not counting the amount of time they spent faceplanted begging for an Awaken.

If you're going to solo or only inflict such folly upon your friends who understand what you're doing, go for it.

But if you're trying to do this to get on teams and contribute to that team, be prepared for people to be angry at you.

As usual, I'm the exception to the rule.

Mastermind base HP is 803.2. This build contains 17 damage procs.

It watched Bob the Biohazard (Guy Perfect's petless mastermind, pictured above) beat a level 50 Lt. Sefu Tendaji EB in 2:19. It also took him 1:03 to beat a level 50 Romulus Augustus EB. He didn't use any inspirations or temporary powers for either fight.

Afterward, Chivalrous Squish (DeProgrammer's petless Mastermind) whomped Romulus Augustus (level 50 EB) in 1:17, also with no temps, insps or outside buffs.

He was Traps, though, so I don't consider that truly "petless," but quite an accomplishment nonetheless. Here's to Masterminds with no Henchmen!

It wasn't too bad; mostly unpopular sets like Slow, Hold, Defense debuff... The hardest one to get ahold of was Cloud Senses (Accurate ToHit Debuff) since this was back before Alignment Merits and nobody had one for sale on the market.

Damage proc distribution:
* Reactive Total Radial Conversion covers all attacks
* Brawl - Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, Hecatomb (I think I got it for some 135 mil)
* Boxing - Touch of Death, Mako's Bite
* Air Superiority - Touch of Death, Mako's Bite
* Pistols - Apocalypse (I think I paid some 175 mil for it)
* Dual Wield - Explosive Strike
* Empty Clips - Explosive Strike, Positron's Blast
* Envenom - Touch of Lady Grey, Shield Breaker
* Weaken - Cloud Senses
* Neurotoxic Breath - Impeded Swiftness
* Paralytic Poison - Ghost Widow's Embrace (the power's slotted for hold and +HP)
* Bile Spray - Positron's Blast
* Knockout Blow can actually be six-slotted with damage procs, but I slotted it for damage and hold instead.

Ouch. My wealthiest character just tipped over 150 mil Sunday. I looked at purple IOs and despaired yet again when I saw the prices at 275-500 million per.

I'd rather make a Corruptor.

But Corruptors, as I'm sure you are aware, are not petless Masterminds. It's a matter of principle, really. I wanted to know if it could be done, and much to my surprise, it can be done quite well. And this thread is a pretty good example of why it matters to me: people say it's impossible, but here I am having done it. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds!

Now, since I consider myself an expert in the field, I present a public service announcement...

Petless Mastermind Rule #1
If you aren't very familiar with how powers work and/or don't have a lot of resources to throw at it, then for the love of Cole do not attempt to make a petless Mastermind. Pulling it off requires an encyclopedic knowledge of the game mechanics and will cost you a lot of time and Inf in the process.

Since you're not at all likely to have the thing ready for prime time until level 50, you may want to avoid teaming petless. Use the alternate build with Henchmen while leveling.

Petless Mastermind Rule #2
You absolutely, totally, without-a-doubt cannot make a petless Mastermind perform well by enhancing the damage of its attacks. Almost all attacks available to Masterminds are low base damage, which means you can spend 4 or more slots per attack to double it to what amounts to "moderate" damage in the long run.

Petless Mastermind Rule #3
Mastermind is the squishiest of any archetype; they usually deal with this by having Henchmen take aggro or at the very least keeping Henchmen around for Bodyguard. Without Henchmen, you're stuck with 800 HP and no mez protection. Any amount of extra aggro will mean a faceplant if you're not prepared for it (and sometimes if you are), and for that reason teams won't like you too much. And you won't like you too much.

Most petless Masterminds bite the big one early because they can't survive worth squat.

Petless Mastermind Rule #4
If you do decide to go for it, people on the forums won't accept your goals, at least not historically. People in-game, by personal experience, generally don't care if you're petless or not. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that it can be done well if you know what you're doing, so don't be discouraged by min/maxing naysayers who subscribe to the religion of the floating orange numbers.

Petless Mastermind Rule #5
Pics or it didn't happen. Videos are better. For example, here's a really old video of my first petless Mastermind, back before Inherent Fitness or Incarnate Abilities. People will still talk smack (note that comments are disabled for that video), but proof-of-concept is enough to turn the heads of most people.

When I get back home around my recording equipment in a couple weeks, I'll make a new video showcasing the above Mastermind with its revised build and Incarnate Abilities.

Very nice work! It sounds like some amazing things have been done with petless MMs when fully utilizing the invention and incarnate systems.

The advice I gave earlier was based solely on under-twenty experience, leveling up while not rich. It's impressive, but not surprising, that with enough money and effort in minmaxing one can gather enough procs, bonuses, and incarnate powers to make a petless masterminds good... with enough of those things, ANYTHING can be good. I'm not trying to diminish the achievement, I'm just saying that that build says more about mastering some of the game systems than the inherent ability of petless masterminds.

I still stand by what I said. Even without lots of resources, petless masterminds are possible. But they're incredibly slow, and only worthwhile in the sense of getting satisfaction from doing what shouldn't be feasible. However, if you build precisely enough, and throw enough money at them, by fifty they can apparently be reasonably playable!

Not much to add to the thread, except to concur that henchless /Traps isn't too bad, and neither is henchless /Storm.

My henchless Bots/Poison is quite awful, though, and may get rerolled as a Corruptor.

I think it really depends upon who you are as to whether it is worth it or not.

I keep wanting to have petless Demon/Pain just because I think it would be great fun.

Would she be an efficient character? Oh probably not but I'm not really suer how many of mine are actually efficient.

Would I have trouble finding teams? Maybe but I'm pretty sure my frineds would put up with it. They seem a pretty tolerant bunch.

Would it be fun? Tonnes I am sure.

Will I do it? Hmmmmm maybe. Right now I am soloing my Fire/FF Controller through her teens so maybe later on.

I guess in short if you think it would be fun then just do it. You play this game for yourself, not the potential people whining about how you have a gimped character.