Letter writing, wells, menders and more
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-08-15 06:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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We don't really have idea what the Battalion is right now, or what technology base they use, if they use what we think of as 'technology' at all. They have 'ships' and, based on Ramiel's arc, some sort of overmind that traverses time at will. Those ships could be anything from rocket-propelled hunks of metal to boats made out of the fingernails of the dead.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Given the general hand-waving about Nemesis, I suppose that he could also upload himself into a Batallion computer or machine or android.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's actually an awesome idea, even if it's not about who the Letter Writer is. The Eternal Nemesis arc pretty much proves that the original Nemesis is "dead," in the sense that the last of his body - his brain - is now dead and replaced with a machine.
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You're mostly right. However, the arc was never about "cloning" a brain, but rather about creating an artificial one. Nemesis wasn't just making another copy of his ageing, decaying ratty brain. He was making a brand new one, one which was resistant to Rikti psionics and mutation chemicals, one which was not just immune from Crey's mind control but also superior to their own Revenant Hero brains, one that was superior to the Council/Column's bioengineering and super science. And, above all else, one that could be mass-produced.|
Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
wat? I understood that he actually succeeded in cloning his brain and we, saps that we are, were fooled into thinking that he'd cloned only one brain and the standard now is that any Nemesis Battle Suit that contains a brain is a 'real' Nemesis.
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You're right in that every Fake Nemesis is now technically a "real" Nemesis, in that Nemesis can see and speak through them, but remember - those machines are still mass-produced, and so cheaper, simpler and weaker than his own personal armour. But there's no reason Nemesis can't have two dozen copies of said armour and have, as a point of fact, many genuinely REAL Nemesis running around, all sharing the same mind. That's why joking about how you can never catch the real Nemesis because he has plot immunity is a joke on us - there IS no one real Nemesis.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, that's what I meant by 'cloning'. My bad.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You're mostly right. However, the arc was never about "cloning" a brain, but rather about creating an artificial one. Nemesis wasn't just making another copy of his ageing, decaying ratty brain. He was making a brand new one, one which was resistant to Rikti psionics and mutation chemicals, one which was not just immune from Crey's mind control but also superior to their own Revenant Hero brains, one that was superior to the Council/Column's bioengineering and super science. And, above all else, one that could be mass-produced.
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| You're right in that every Fake Nemesis is now technically a "real" Nemesis |
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You know, I never thought about this until now: Does Twilight's Son currently have a host? We only see him in Nova form, which is only a simulacrum of a previous host. If he does have one, it's entirely possible we would know who it was, which opens up some potentially interesting story angles, especially since fully merged Kheldians mix together aspects of both personalities.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Just about the only one we don't really know is Twilight's Son (Yeah yeah, ha ha, the son of Twilight; funny, but has anybody met Twilight? Maybe we should focus on who in the game universe would be willing to sell out a whole lot of people to save his own skin).
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For this to be any fun Twilight's Son's host must also be Lord Nemesis.
They can both be in the Ouroboros enclave at the same time thanks to time travel. Twilight's Son stays in nova form so as not to give away his true identity.
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Every Mender is Nemesis. They did say Ouroboros was based on Heinlein.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
For this to be any fun Twilight's Son's host must also be Lord Nemesis.
They can both be in the Ouroboros enclave at the same time thanks to time travel. Twilight's Son stays in nova form so as not to give away his true identity. |
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Even the female ones! Because:|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Every Mender is Nemesis.
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| They did say Ouroboros was based on Heinlein. |
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Typo. Ouroboros was created due to Heinekin.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
Every Mender is Nemesis. They did say Ouroboros was based on Heinlein.
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Hell if I know. I don't drink beer. Can't stand the stuff. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Speaking of a typo, did you mean 'Heineken'?
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I have a new theory!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't actually have a real argument for why the Letter Writer can't be the Dream Doctor in the way I can argue Mender Lazarus is not Dr. Aeon, to be honest. What I have are more meta-story arguments against him, in the sense that I don't see how this could make for a very good story. The Dream Doctor has always been linked with Rularuu the Ravager, and he doesn't seem to be the Coming Storm. About the only way I can see the Dream Doctor being the Letter Writer is if it turn out the Shiva meteorite and the Battalion are just a diversion and it is Rularuu the Ravager who is the REAL storm, which would then put the Midnight Club and the Dream Doctor to the forefront. But the way the story is slated, I don't see this happening unless we want to delay the Coming Storm for another 10 Issues. |
Nemisis, indirectly and possibly unintentionally, created the comming storm. How? Well, he has been using the shadow shard as a base of operations for quite some time, it is possible that that is where he sources his materials, produces the bulk of his atomatons, and likley conducts experiments. He has, essentaily, been using the place as his own personal sandbox. But the shadowshard is no dimnetional backwater full of tumbleweed and dust, oh no, it is the physical manifestation of the shattered mind of a dimention eating GOD.
At some point in our future; Nemisis's forces in the shadow shard merge with Rularuu's minions (and possibly Rularuu himself) to become the Batalion.
The idea gets a little hazy at this point; I'm not sure how to reconcile the comming storm's origins in the future with their presence in our past. Maybe after it's creation it get's hurled into the past or somthing. But this would allow the Dream Doctor to still be LW, as opposing the storm would also be opposing Rularuu, and it would make the LW's distrust of Silos more understandable.
I was investigating Greek Gods earlier today, because of the whole intrinsic greek connection trhough City of Heroes, Zeus (Statesman), Tartarus (Recluse) and Prometheus (Prometheus 
) and I came across a Greek deity (kind of) called Nemesis.
Nemesis is the spirit of divine retribution against the hubris of man. Discuss.
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This isn't exactly news.
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Originally Posted by BeyondReach
Nemesis is the spirit of divine retribution against the hubris of man. Discuss.
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The thing with the Battalion is that they're said to have been the alien race to evolve the Rikti from the humans of their dimension into... Well, the Rikti. Now, I can't say whether the Battalion actively mutated the Rikti or simply presented a threat serious enough to uproot their entire culture and society, but they do have a place in the Rikti timeline, and that place is I think several hundred years in the past. We know this because the Rikti mutated society is not new. They've been adjusting for centuries, ridding themselves of war, destroying magic and rebuilding their society into something completely different.|
Originally Posted by Pendix
At some point in our future; Nemisis's forces in the shadow shard merge with Rularuu's minions (and possibly Rularuu himself) to become the Batalion.
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To put the Batallion in as a result of Nemesis forces doing something in our future seems like a very weird timeline to follow. Granted, it involves time travel and alternate dimensions so someone could have just gone to Rikti Earth's past and done this, but it seems... Difficult to put into context. That's not to say it's impossible, just that it would be a rather very complex storyline. Perhaps a little too complex, needing masses of exposition to justify, and that's never a good sign.
To be honest, I am sorry to be the constant putdown guy of theories around here, but that's all I got. I haven't even the foggiest idea who the Letter Writer is, other than perhaps whatever shadow person it was that killed Merulia so the Well could turn her into the Leviathan, and even that's just a wild guess. It's just a guy who's strong and willing enough to oppose the Well, and that same Well of the Furies has to be linked to the coming storm SOMEHOW. But I'm really reaching here, since I honestly don't have a guess.
Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Wow, this suddenly put everything into perspective for me. I seemingly recall confirmation that the Battalion did not mutate the Rikti. Therefore, an outside force prompted the Rikti to drastically change themselves in order to prepare their world for the coming of the Battalion. Sound familiar?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The thing with the Battalion is that they're said to have been the alien race to evolve the Rikti from the humans of their dimension into... Well, the Rikti. Now, I can't say whether the Battalion actively mutated the Rikti or simply presented a threat serious enough to uproot their entire culture and society, but they do have a place in the Rikti timeline, and that place is I think several hundred years in the past. We know this because the Rikti mutated society is not new. They've been adjusting for centuries, ridding themselves of war, destroying magic and rebuilding their society into something completely different.
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And they've explicitly teased alternate dimension Ourboroses...
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I think this is a common misconception. In the first mission of Serpent Drummer's arc, Ambassador Il'los does mention 'creators', and Serpent Drummer's initial clue for a mission later in the arc does mention that the Rikti fought (and won) against the Battalion, but there's nothing said about the identity of the Rikti's creators, and there are no implications that the two parties are one and the same.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The thing with the Battalion is that they're said to have been the alien race to evolve the Rikti from the humans of their dimension into... Well, the Rikti.
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I think this was developer offhand commentary that suggested this, way, way, WAY back in the past. Back in 2005 when I7 came out featuring Arachnoids, Castle spoke about wanting to make them into some kind of super threat that no-one could beat alone, not even their minions. That's why their regeneration is so stupid-high - enemy regeneration was to CoV what ambushes are to Going Rogue. He spoke about having to nerf their powers significantly for reasons OTHER than this not being fare, but also brought up the Battalion as an enemy group which, if it were ever put in the game, WOULD be unsoloable.|
Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
I think this is a common misconception. In the first mission of Serpent Drummer's arc, Ambassador Il'los does mention 'creators', and Serpent Drummer's initial clue for a mission later in the arc does mention that the Rikti fought (and won) against the Battalion, but there's nothing said about the identity of the Rikti's creators, and there are no implications that the two parties are one and the same.
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Of course, that's Castle being Castle - he loved making enemies who are stronger than us by a fair margin. That's also the old era of Jack Emmert trying his best to kneecap solo players and force them to team. In this regard, the Battalion were brought up and explained. I think that this is when it was suggested that the Battalion is what caused the Rikti to mutate. In the Omega Clearance, it is speculated that the Rikti may have done this to themselves, so I'm still prepared to believe that the Batallion are what caused their transformation, if only by proxy.
Either way, though, no matter at what point it was that the Rikti fought the Battalion, it was in the past. If the Coming Storm turns out to be Nemesis soldiers melding with Rularuu and becoming the Battalion, it would put their creation in the future and past the occurrence of events they were supposed to take part in. I'm also pretty sure they're both space aliens and ancient, again from what was said at the time. There were a lot of mentions of these guys back in the I7-I8 period, and mostly for no real reason. I think the Shivans brought up the point similarly to how the Arachnoids did.
Of course, I could be wrong on all counts. I'm going off memory.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As I recall, The Battalion were supposed to be an enemy we would need inventions for (i.e. our regular powers would be no good and we'd need some sort of temp powers to defeat them). I think that came from a magazine article, maybe?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
but also brought up the Battalion as an enemy group which, if it were ever put in the game, WOULD be unsoloable.
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Actually, found mention of it
From the November 2005 PC Gamer:
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| Accompanying the invention system will be a villain group called The Battalion that is so powerful that you'll need some of the player-made temp powers to defeat them. This group will hunt heroes and villains alike. |
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I still would like to see what Silos did, if the Battalion is the Storm, to ensure our annihilation. He specifically states: "I was key to this world's destruction."
Whose world? Our world? Praetoria? War World? Which? When he says world, does he mean the entire string of interconnected Earths? And, if the Battalion have the technology to shatter hundreds of planets and tear apart dimensional barriers... what are we going to do? It still befuddles me that the Rikti were able to beat them back but they are going to be an omgwth! threat to us. I'm not saying the Rikti aren't tough... but their technology isn't so extreme that they could beat inter-dimensional, god-like beings that threaten every plane of existence.
I realize it's a plot point, but the LW must be somewhat deranged; to keep information, hell, war intel!... from us at this point is ludicrous.
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That's also the old era when "unsoloable" didn't translate to "I double triple dog dare you" to some players.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I think this was developer offhand commentary that suggested this, way, way, WAY back in the past. Back in 2005 when I7 came out featuring Arachnoids, Castle spoke about wanting to make them into some kind of super threat that no-one could beat alone, not even their minions. That's why their regeneration is so stupid-high - enemy regeneration was to CoV what ambushes are to Going Rogue. He spoke about having to nerf their powers significantly for reasons OTHER than this not being fare, but also brought up the Battalion as an enemy group which, if it were ever put in the game, WOULD be unsoloable.
Of course, that's Castle being Castle - he loved making enemies who are stronger than us by a fair margin. That's also the old era of Jack Emmert trying his best to kneecap solo players and force them to team. |
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Originally Posted by RadDidIt
I still would like to see what Silos did, if the Battalion is the Storm, to ensure our annihilation. He specifically states: "I was key to this world's destruction."
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LW also states several times that Mender Silos is being less than honest about the true nature of the Coming Storm and his own motivations. Ramiel's intro is the first sign we've had that Silos was telling the truth on some level, but we still don't really know that the vision was any more than exactly what Silos wanted us to see.|
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
I realize it's a plot point, but the LW must be somewhat deranged; to keep information, hell, war intel!... from us at this point is ludicrous.
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Why was our "future self" in the far future to grab Ramiel and hurl him back through time if the "Coming Storm" was actually coming in the present day? It seems like there would be better ways to accomplish the task of starting incarnate training at an earlier age.
Why was the "storm" basically a bunch of echos drawn from the psyche of our present day character? (Ignoring the real world reason that this kind of thing was the simplest for the programmers to implement.) Why is it only Ouroboros that we see? Why was Ramiel alone in the future? If he was the last surviving Mender, how did he get that "honor"? I'm getting at the idea that LW proposes about Twilight's Son - that being "last of your kind" may indicate that you accomplished it by running and hiding while your fellows were slaughtered.
Over and over again, we're told by the Menders, "Just trust us", where LW more pragmatically says "Don't trust anyone, not even me, but especially not Mender Silos".
I've never trusted Silos anyway. Even if he's telling the truth about this Coming Storm, I expect to find out that he's been withholding something vital to his own interests that won't necessarily be compatible with our interests.
I agree with SlickRiptide. Even if Mender Silos is Nemesis seeking redemption for causing something, there is NO way he would be totally up-front about everything. He's hiding something big, and he's still manipulating the situation so he ends up on top. Except that maybe this time him ending out on top means he has to save the rest of the universe instead of ruling over it, and he sees that as redemption.
With all this talk of Kheldians around, I'm also wondering where Horus is. He's the last Blue King character not in-game and he was supposed to be trying to lead the Kheldians on Earth against the Nictus. Obviously time has passed since the Blue King book (see: Apex), and I gotta wonder where Horus has been. The talk about Twilight Son's host has some very interesting possibilities, especially considering how short-lived Kheldians are without a host. [tangent thought: Kheldian bonding prolongs the life of the Kheld and the human host. If Mender Silos is a physical body and not some automaton, perhaps Nemesis extended his physical life (instead of existing in a digitized mind form) by bonding with a Kheld, maybe even in a temporary relationship to give him a few years here, a few years there, without permanently being bonded. A relationship like this gives lots of opportunities for him knowing firsthand about the Battalion- hosts can sense their parter Khelds out in the universe, after all. But maybe this is just a tangent I thought of. *shrug*]
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Here's the thing - why are we constantly doubting what the Menders are saying but never once have I heard anyone speculate that the Letter Writer is full of **** and just doing his own things. Granted, the Menders aren't exactly open about what they're doing, but this alone isn't reason enough to mistrust them. On the flip side, we have someone who doesn't even have the balls to meet us in person who's asking us to trust him because... He has the ability to put letters in crates? And, yes, he IS asking us to trust him in that there's something to mistrust.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Over and over again, we're told by the Menders, "Just trust us", where LW more pragmatically says "Don't trust anyone, not even me, but especially not Mender Silos".
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Now, granted, maybe that's my own bias talking here, but when someone tells me "Don't trust anyone, even me, but instead look for the truth." that's almost always someone who wants to fool me. If the answer to the question "Why should I trust you?" is "You shouldn't." then I don't. The easiest way to introduce doubt where doubt doesn't exist is to constantly throw around "what if" scenarios with absolutely no backing than because you said so, creating circular logic. For instance:
Lazarus is evil because I said so. If Lazarus is evil, then his apparent madness (which isn't even all that apparent) makes sense. If he's mad in this particular way, then it makes sense that he's evil, doesn't it? Or Twilight's Son. He sold his own people, so he feels guilty. Wait, so that explains why he feels guilty - because he sold his own people.
It's pretty standard propaganda, if you ask me. It's demonising people by making up horror stories about them. Remember how WW1 Keiser Germany soldiers were being touted as baby-murdering huns who want to eat your liver? You know, because they did things they never actually did. But you had video footage of British actors in WW1 German army uniforms doing these things, so it must be true, right?
If I have to distrust someone, it's the Letter Writer. He's the one who recruits violent sadistic murderers and threatens me that I'll be buried under the wreckage of Ourobors when the citadel crashes into the sea. He clearly has a problem with Silos that goes above and beyond simple pragmatism and approaches Dr. Doom's obsession with Reed Richards and he's constantly trying to get me on his side when I don't want his stupid letters to begin with. This is a conspiracy theory story where I'm expected to trust the one person who claims a very unlikely truth, and I simply don't roll that way.
Far as I'm concerned, the Letter Writer's letters are propaganda. They're empty words with nothing to back them up. Until he shows his face and takes action, I consider him to be the one lying, if for no reason other than because I don't enjoy being told of a future where I'm working with a man I have no reason to trust or like, like he's robbing me of my free will and my choice. Silos may be Nemesis, but at least the guy never told me I'd be his manservant.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Another problem for the Mysterious Letter Writer - apart from having Protean working for him - is that while he continues to add small text additions to our Clues window, the devs continue to add more and more substantial content to Ouroboros - gameplay wise, his offer to join with him is looking more and more like the potential fast path to Incarnate power that was brought up during Mender Ramiel's arc
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"Dr in a dreaM" - the Dream Doctor.
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