Underwhelmed by AT specific IOs
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2011-07-29 21:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Yeah that listing confuses me a little as well. I don't really have anything I fire 3 times a minute as part of my normal mezz or attack chains.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
They are listing these Procs in a new way. They are listed as roughly X number of times Per Minute. Some are 3 per minute, some are 4 per minute.
We'll have to get more detail before seeing if someone can break that down into a % per attack. Except for the Fury bonus, which is just Extra Fury generated per attack. |
I hardly dare to say it, but what if those procs are Global? Then the listing makes more sense (because they'd want to limit the number of times it can fire over time, like they do in rain powers).
It would also make sense in terms of the Dominator one. A short duration +dmg wouldn't mess with non damaging mezzes, and potentially break them.
If that's the case then these recipes are a totally different kettle of fish.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
The "procs per minute" reminds me of Everquest (or was it EQ2? Been ages since I played either but I'm certain it was in at least one of them) where all procs were normalised to fire, on average, once per <time interval> so as to not penalise slow attacking sets.
Quote:
Hm... how do you define "outclass"? I mean, in some cases it's pretty obvious. Generic IOs outclass SOs at levels 35 and higher. A character slotted with generic IOs will always have bigger bonuses at 35+. Likewise, purples outclass normal IOs (though whether the improvement is worth it for the cost is a different matter).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Honestly, if the development team can introduce a whole store full of stuff and NOT put in a bunch of things that let those who buy them outclass those who don't BY FAR, I will be incredibly impressed and file to have my fanboy club membership card reissued.
And, yes, I do mean that. |
But beyond that it gets very murky. What is a nice bonus to some people could be a necessary crutch to others. Imagine if the Shivians and Nukes, instead of being attempts to bribe people into PvP, were sold in the store. Would that be "letting people FAR outclass those who don't shop"?
Character index
Quote:
I certainly don't want to speak for Sam in any way, shape, or form, but I think he means if the devs can avoid the urge to start adding enhancements-for-sale that give dramatic and huge fundamental shifts in gameplay, they win.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Hm... how do you define "outclass"? I mean, in some cases it's pretty obvious. Generic IOs outclass SOs at levels 35 and higher. A character slotted with generic IOs will always have bigger bonuses at 35+. Likewise, purples outclass normal IOs (though whether the improvement is worth it for the cost is a different matter).
But beyond that it gets very murky. What is a nice bonus to some people could be a necessary crutch to others. Imagine if the Shivians and Nukes, instead of being attempts to bribe people into PvP, were sold in the store. Would that be "letting people FAR outclass those who don't shop"? |
It's the tempting Idol sitting on the rock that most Free2Play game developers foolishly grab and end up getting crushed by the rolling rock of fan dissent. Selling something that gives an obvious and constant advantage (like, say, Alpha Slot-level boosts in a store-only IO set) would generate a lot of quick and easy buys but is it worth the bad forum PR it'd generate?
That's the ying and yang of free to play.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I've already started a thread about this in the Tanker forums, but I want to reiterate here.
I'm really unhappy about the Tanker proc.
All the other AT's sets seen have procs that increase their damage output.
Even Controllers, who aren't even a 'damage dealing' AT get a damage proc.
Brutes, despite the fact they're now grouped as a 'Tank' AT with Tankers, specifically have one that globally increases their Fury. That's huge.
So why are Tankers stuck with a stupid +Res proc?
Again I'd like to suggest something else for the Might of the Tanker proc.
-A decent chance for a modest Resistance debuff to enemies.
-A proc that causes subsequent attacks to do mini-Criticals for a period of time.
-A proc that causes damage against the Tanker to be reflected back against the enemy for a short time when it goes off.
-A proc that does extreme damage, but has a lower chance to go off (10-15%).
.
Johnny, unless you know more about the proc than I do, you don't know enough to criticize it yet.
Yes, it's +res(all) instead of damage. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad proc.
Let's find out just what the numbers are before you ask for it to be improved (or changed to something else).
Quote:
I know enough about it to know that I am not happy with it because a +Res proc is not something I want in a Tanker IO set.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Johnny, unless you know more about the proc than I do, you don't know enough to criticize it yet.
|
Which is all that my post says.
I leave it up to the individual to decide if a set is "good" or "bad".
"I do not like ice cream" is not the same as "Ice cream is crap".
Having said that, all my points stand:
Out of all the AT sets seen so far, Tankers have been singled out to not get a proc that improves damage when other 'non-damage' ATs got one, even the other 'Tank' AT which got an especially potent (IMO) boost.
.
Johnny, I know you're all about the Tankers need moar damage, but sets that give more resistance are few and far between: most of them are rare and extremely expensive PVP recipes as well. So when I saw this, I thought it was a nice thing for most of my tanks, most of whom would love to get more resistance (and have also gone Cardiac with their Alpha because of it). Making it a resist to all is even better.
But I rather hope the chance and duration are decent for that proc. It's not the end of the world if you miss out on a damage proc, but a resist proc that has a hard time working is not very worth it.
If anything, I'd say Brutes shouldn't get access to resist bonuses in their set, if their proc is going to improve their offense. Being able to double dip so much has been something of a problem for their balance since their creation.
The sets overall look pretty good. They're not perfect for every powerset in the respective AT, but that's the way it is. I'll still want the Blaster set on a bunch of my blasters, even if the ranged damage isn't a perfect help for my E^3 Blaster.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Here's the problem with that bonus being included: It is demonstrably true that people are consistently willing to pay 2bn+ for that specific bonus already. Putting it in as a set bonus in a set where all the other bonuses are reasonably useful (or better than anything short of purples, as with the recharge bonus in the set) creates a set that no reasonable person would, when given the option, choose not to slot. |
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I'm not saying the double digits we see in purples, but I would like to see BrandX's +3% defense across the board...
|
Tossing more opportunities for +def(all) would be a design error, IMO. I would not expect to see these pop up frequently in the future, if at all.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
I try not to, as it's usually subject to debate, and it rarely worries me. What does worry me, however, is outclassing others BY FAR, as I mentioned. When you have one character who is clearly and obviously stronger than another only because of what the stronger character has bought off the real money store... That tends to be easier to spot and prove, and that's the sort of thing I don't want.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Hm... how do you define "outclass"?
|
Basically, I don't want the strongest characters to be the strongest because their owners forked over the most cash. Offering "sidegrade" enhancements that allow for new options but aren't necessarily and visible "better" is a good way to go about it, and if they can stick to just those, I will be very impressed and very happy.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I just want something unique...if the procs really are working different than the standard ones, that would be something....but all I see right now is another IO set without much different to it
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the Blaster one looks pretty good. If I understand these correctly, they can be slotted in any Blaster Primary power, right? I don't think any Targetted AoE set gives Ranged Def. So the ability to slot this in a TAoE power and pick up 3.13% ranged Def and a chance for Fire damage and 8% global recharge looks nice.
If I misunderstand and they only go in single-target attacks, then yeah, less options are bad.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
Quote:
Judging from how the brute one works I think these are less standard damage procs and closer to being IO interface. That is very rare even if not unique.
|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I just want something unique...if the procs really are working different than the standard ones, that would be something....but all I see right now is another IO set without much different to it
|
Quote:
This is true, in my opinion as well, only if they plan to create more AT only sets.|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Here's the problem with that bonus being included: It is demonstrably true that people are consistently willing to pay 2bn+ for that specific bonus already. Putting it in as a set bonus in a set where all the other bonuses are reasonably useful (or better than anything short of purples, as with the recharge bonus in the set) creates a set that no reasonable person would, when given the option, choose not to slot.
Tossing more opportunities for +def(all) would be a design error, IMO. I would not expect to see these pop up frequently in the future, if at all. |
If it's just the one AT only set, and they have no intention of making any other sets to sell on the market, then I don't see a problem with it.
I think it would be a mistake to make a bunch of sets people can buy and use, but I don't think it's a mistake to make one awesome set people can buy.
For my main and name sake, if the Brute and Tanker versions of the set are any indications, I wouldn't be making use of the set.
Even with my suggestion, it would only be worth it for those who build for it.
If it was 3% Defense across the board, I wouldn't use it, as it would drop my defenses below 45% if I did.
Now admittedly this is just on one of my characters, but If I run into that problem, then I'm sure there's other builds that would as well, nore so when one would likely need to six slot for that bonus.
If the devs don't do it, it's not really a problem. My suggestion was merely one to really encourage it for many different type of builds.
On my Ranged Defense toons, the Blaster set for instance is AWESOME. Use it in place of Position's Blast for instance. Well, actually, it might just be a good set to replace Positron's Blast with period, for the little bit more +RCH, but then I might just think, Positron's Blast I can just buy in game with no real money investment.
So like I said, just a suggestion.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Kinda meh on the Corr set, since I'd imagine Defender'll look pretty similiar.
Quote:
I don't have any problem with suggestions or opinions, and apologize if I came across like I did. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
So like I said, just a suggestion.
|
I just happen to hold a separate but related opinion, that being that providing too many sources of +def(all) creates serious game balance concerns (and not just in AT-specific sets, though I can imagine a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth if one AT suddenly had a 6.67% (=3/45) easier time getting to the softcap for "all" than the others did). I think both of us have the right to voice our opinions about the value of the set and any proposed changes to it. I'm sure that's why we're getting information at this stage - for our reactions and thoughts on whether the things that are coming are good, and how they could be made better.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
I'll be doing much the same. It also looks like this set will have better confuse duration enhancement in the IOs themselves, since they don't have the unnecessary (to me) range enhancement in them.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
Mind Control/Mass Confusion: 6-slotted with Malaise's (the purple set is in Confuse).
Even: Damage bonus (2.5%) Defense bonus (3.13% R/1.565% E/NE) Gain: Recharge (8.75 - 6.25 = 2.5%) Accuracy (9%) Confuse (3% - 2.5% = 0.5%) Status Duration (other stuff in addition to confuse) edit: and the Chance for +DMG, too. Lose: Recovery (2.5%) I'll be making that swap. That's a win for me. |
Edit: Looking at the numbers that we see, these appear to enhance the same as a level 50 set, so Schedule A is 26.5% for a dual, 21.2% for a triple and 18.55% for a quad. That's 89.75% Confuse duration (pre-ED) versus the current 74.2% (also pre-ED) of Malaise's Illusions. 66.25% Accuracy versus 74.2%, which is a bit of a loss that I doubt I'll notice. Even for my purposes, which will probably be to skip the proc/Recharge, a very good increase in Recharge of 71.55 versus the anemic 47.7%. 66.25% End Reduction versus 53%. Mostly win on those values, with less than 8% loss in Accuracy on a character who is 95% or better on +4s anyway, unless they have psi defense, and the loss of 15% range enhancement.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
Quote:
Well, these look to be sets my ranged type can replace the positron blast sets with for better RCH, and over all better stats.|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I don't have any problem with suggestions or opinions, and apologize if I came across like I did.
I just happen to hold a separate but related opinion, that being that providing too many sources of +def(all) creates serious game balance concerns (and not just in AT-specific sets, though I can imagine a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth if one AT suddenly had a 6.67% (=3/45) easier time getting to the softcap for "all" than the others did). I think both of us have the right to voice our opinions about the value of the set and any proposed changes to it. I'm sure that's why we're getting information at this stage - for our reactions and thoughts on whether the things that are coming are good, and how they could be made better. |
So it's not like the set's so terrible.
Before I hadn't thought of it, and just really thought of the single target sets I'd rather use.Still, I'd rather see bonuses that work for all styles of play...like Blappers, or squishies that need to spend time in melee for whatever reason.
Though on the Melee AT sets it'd be more useful in working around on all sets if it was just made universal.
Though that seems to be only the case for the Brute set so far, as the Tanker set has no +Defense, and the Scrapper and Stalker sets we have no images of.
The Resistance bonuses would at least be nice to see at a flat 3-5%.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I agree entirely. More options and customization is good, but anything that hints at the "pay to win" moniker sticks in my craw.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I try not to, as it's usually subject to debate, and it rarely worries me. What does worry me, however, is outclassing others BY FAR, as I mentioned. When you have one character who is clearly and obviously stronger than another only because of what the stronger character has bought off the real money store... That tends to be easier to spot and prove, and that's the sort of thing I don't want.
Basically, I don't want the strongest characters to be the strongest because their owners forked over the most cash. Offering "sidegrade" enhancements that allow for new options but aren't necessarily and visible "better" is a good way to go about it, and if they can stick to just those, I will be very impressed and very happy. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I just want something unique...if the procs really are working different than the standard ones, that would be something....but all I see right now is another IO set without much different to it
|
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
My Dom is a Fire/Earth, melee defense or S/L defense would be better. Hence the reason I suggest 3% Defense vs 3.75% Ranged Defense in these sets.
Same goes for my Dual Pistol users who get into melee often, because of well, Hail of Bullets.
It's the very first moment I come around the corner and they turn and see me that matters. Sometimes I get hit pretty hard if my timing is off. More ranged is fine by me.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill