I think it'd be a good idea to announce if there are any MORE visual revamps.
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-07-28 11:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Hm...I thought that line was plenty clear in context. Of course they can do whatever they want, that's so obvious that it doesn't even need to be stated. The "..." was referencing something I said just a line above it..."and expect people to recognize the result as the CoT". I didn't explicitly restate it because I though it looked redundant when I actually re-read it.
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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
Yes they can. It's their IP; they can do anything they want to it, and for any reason (assuming that NCSoft doesn't mind, and I'm fairly sure that revamping the look of an old NPC group is something the home office doesn't care about). Really, there doesn't even need to be justification for said changes aside fro "We wanted to do it".
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You're confusing what they have a right to do with what they would be smart to do. They have a right to delete all our characters tomorrow. It just wouldn't be smart. Much like turning centuries old, corrupt sorcerers into Death Metal Band of the Year 2006.
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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
Yes they can. It's their IP; they can do anything they want to it, and for any reason (assuming that NCSoft doesn't mind, and I'm fairly sure that revamping the look of an old NPC group is something the home office doesn't care about). Really, there doesn't even need to be justification for said changes aside fro "We wanted to do it".
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Yes and no.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The most helpful feedback comes on the implemented and executed product.
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If you're making burgers, do you want to be told the beef you're using is bad/rotten before/while making them or after you've fed them to paying customers and made them deathly ill?
Nobody's demanding that Paragon solicit feedback from the community or that creative control be ceded to the community. But, more and more lately, the community has been presented with fait accompli and no real chance to offer input at a stage where it might actually do some good.
A certain competitor of yours ran their development that way from Alpha through release and look at the debacle they made of their product.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
The Dev's use open Beta for that. When the beta is opened up, GO THERE and look around. Give the dev's their feedback. Posting it on the Forums is not exactly the best idea in the world you know.
Should the dev's ask us before implementing something? Yes. In fact they do, this is why we have open and closed beta's. Why things are tested on the test server.
Should they require our permission to make any changes? No. They are the devs. This is their game. Now, it behooves them to listen to us, as we are the ones keeping them in business. When there is a large cry for "Don't change this" they listen.
Why? Because if they don't it can hurt their bottom line. They do know you can't please all of the people all of the time, but when a majority of players are decidedly against something, they do occasionally say to themselves - well geez, maybe we should do something about this.
The devs have listed to our complaints. They will be making some changes to those atrocities that were going to be the CoT. Let's see if we can get something cool out of it.
Waiting for Open Beta.
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The problem with that is that that comes very late in the development cycle, meaning if all the feedback you get is "I don't like it" you either have to waste all that time (and money) going back to the drawing board or ignore the feedback because you can't afford to do that. Certainly, most modern development lifecycles favour involvement of the user at earlier stages, through mockups, prototypes etc... rather than leaving the feedback until after the implementation phase.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The most helpful feedback comes on the implemented and executed product.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Open beta is for ferreting out any remaining showstopping bugs, like "on an obscure user platform configuration the client formats the user's hard drive". Long before anything like these costumes hits open beta it's way too late for it to be changed.
| The Dev's use open Beta for that. |
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Waiting for redone concept art 
@Redcap
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Thats not before implementing it. Thats before releasing it. In order for something to reach beta, a lot of development time and resources have already been spent on it.
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Originally Posted by Gothenem
Should the dev's ask us before implementing something? Yes. In fact they do, this is why we have open and closed beta's. Why things are tested on the test server.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
Right, this thread has got me intrigued and I am off on a search to find pics on this new CoT look. Incase I fail to find anything, can someone please post links as to what exactly has changed about the CoT?
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This. I'm not opposed to updating the CoT and other older villain groups, on the contracry I'm very much for it. But I also really think that the updates should keep the feel and the identiy of the groups intact. The current CoT revamp only partially does that imo.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I don't think there's a general resistance to changing or updating the CoT. The overall vibe I got from the thread was the specific changes that were being resisted.
Other than that, I agree. Give us a heads up, maybe even show us some concept art. |
That being said, I really do like those designs for what they are, especially the minions.
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Here is the thread with the photos from ComicCon
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Originally Posted by Neo_G_Dice
Right, this thread has got me intrigued and I am off on a search to find pics on this new CoT look. Incase I fail to find anything, can someone please post links as to what exactly has changed about the CoT?
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
First post in the "Circle of Warcraft" Thread.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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Oh my God what the Hell have they done.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
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Dear people in this thread and on this forum: please stop with the "EVERYONE thinks this way" posts.
I don't agree with the anti-redesign sentiment. I like the changes and feel the current CoT on live servers are boring and outdated. I don't like doing a Treespec and seeing a room full of a few dozen bad Jawa impersonators who couldn't be less threatening to me if they had a baby bonnet on.
The new Circle of Thorns, to me, actually symbolizes something the current CoT mages do not: Thorns. They are the source of power and yet for the most part they simply are not present to me.
Now those who want to shoehorn everyone into their own feedback: notice my use of possessive pronouns. I didn't say "Everyone," I said "I." This isn't a hive mind and we certainly don't all share your or my opinion, so please post to reflect that.
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Good to see Zwillinger lurking about and responding.
The whole CoT costume issue was actually pretty unique. There have been any number of adversary groups added to the game, and while each may have a percentage of players who do not like how they look, most players are fine to happy with nearly all the groups.
In the past, when previews, etc., occurred, I do not recall ever witnessing a backlash like happened with the CoT revamp. Groups would come out, like the Midnighters or the Fir Bolg, and most folks responded favorably.
Even in this case, the proposed CoT costumes are great, well-done costumes. A good number of players have said they will use them for their own creations. As appropriate costumes for the Circle of Thorns, nearly everyone who commented said "Blecch."
That is not to say that costumes can never be updated. The Green Arrow had a very simple-looking green outfit in the early '60s, but had moved to the more elaborate rig (with stylish facial hair) by the dawn of the next decade, and the change met with hearty approval. Of course, if they had changed the costume's primary colors to blue and red, or given him a bazooka, I imagine the uproar would be the same: No matter how great the new costume looked, it stands the iconic concept of The Green Arrow on its head and does not "look right" for HIM.
I would not want to "give a veto" to the players in advance, but all the same, it sure would have been nice to have headed the wholesale changes to the CoT off at the pass. It is the exception to the fine blend of concept and great graphics that usually we enjoy, but boy, WHAT an exception! The first chance the players had to see what was coming triggered a spontaneous and huge reaction. I am just sorry that it looks like "things are too far gone; sorry, can't maintain the old look or much change the new look" will be how this plays out. 
I would have hoped that there would have been a mechanism for gauging player response before things get to the Point of No Return. Does Beta happen far enough in advance for that sort of feedback?
I would simply assert that if the next version of Star Trek puts the Klingons in leotards, well, no matter how fine the leotards look, the fanbase is likely going to be Highly Agitated that there was such a radical shift in the look of a faction they are so familiar with as opposed to delighted.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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See also: Fifth Column into Council change?
| In the past, when previews, etc., occurred, I do not recall ever witnessing a backlash like happened with the CoT revamp. Groups would come out, like the Midnighters or the Fir Bolg, and most folks responded favorably. |
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Dear people in this thread and on this forum: please stop with the "EVERYONE thinks this way" posts.
I don't agree with the anti-redesign sentiment. I like the changes and feel the current CoT on live servers are boring and outdated. I don't like doing a Treespec and seeing a room full of a few dozen bad Jawa impersonators who couldn't be less threatening to me if they had a baby bonnet on. The new Circle of Thorns, to me, actually symbolizes something the current CoT mages do not: Thorns. They are the source of power and yet for the most part they simply are not present to me. Now those who want to shoehorn everyone into their own feedback: notice my use of possessive pronouns. I didn't say "Everyone," I said "I." This isn't a hive mind and we certainly don't all share your or my opinion, so please post to reflect that. |
I've been reading both of these threads, and I'm fairly certain that the majority that reference "forum opinion" use terms like "most" and "majority"....I can't remember any saying "everyone shares this opinion" or other phrases that would indicate the writer believes that, well, everyone shares this opinion.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I'm not going to go through this and the original thread to catalog all the flagrant pronoun and hyperbole abuse. I'm just glad Zwill said specifically that they are not only taking into account feedback but also looking into just who posted it, so the standard forum echo chamber of disdain doesn't take effect.
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Originally Posted by Furio
I've been reading both of these threads, and I'm fairly certain that the majority that reference "forum opinion" use terms like "most" and "majority"....I can't remember any saying "everyone shares this opinion" or other phrases that would indicate the writer believes that, well, everyone shares this opinion.
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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I assumed they always did that.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
I'm not going to go through this and the original thread to catalog all the flagrant pronoun and hyperbole abuse. I'm just glad Zwill said specifically that they are not only taking into account feedback but also looking into just who posted it, so the standard forum echo chamber of disdain doesn't take effect.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Since you guys are maybe listening, I'll voice my opinion:|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The images that players are basing their judgments on are pictures of a screen from SDCC. This is both good and bad:
-Z |
DO NOT LIKE.
Robes + COT = good, imho.
Spikey wow armor = cot = meh.
I'd be OK with it if it was Praetorian CoT... but I just don't think it works at all thematically for our CoT, as we've grown to know them. I think that you could probably work some of those pieces in on some of the individual units and have it look OK - as long as you work the robes back in too.
Just my pennies.
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And that's the unfortunate truth. I'm afraid we'll just be given the revamped costumes with a cape or two added, despite overwhelming 'do not want' feedback from the community, because they've already spent the $$$/development time.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
The problem with that is that that comes very late in the development cycle, meaning if all the feedback you get is "I don't like it" you either have to waste all that time (and money) going back to the drawing board or ignore the feedback because you can't afford to do that.
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But what I'd prefer is simply scrapping the project for a CoT revamp and simply making them player costume parts. In fact, that sounds like an excellent idea.
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Not all of us have seen those pictures.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
We've all seen pictures of you in your fur gear, so you could always be respectful of others.
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Thankfully.
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Well at least Positron's post confirmed that we are being listened to and even if the CoT may not be reversed back to their original look, this current design will at least be given a further look into possibly being changed. Which is reassuring, because I'd be extremely disappointed to see CoT coming out looking like that in the future.
Positron's post: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=328
The drawback to focus groups and closed beta is they can turn into echo chambers unless the selection comes from a broad range of participants and factors in a random element. If "insider" players feel flattered enough to be chosen for one or the other, there's a risk they might flatter the devs back. If anything, Posi's surprised tone in his comment suggests that the devs ought to have polled more from the outside.