Monetary value of new powersets...

If you're going to continually diss the people you propose to discuss the problem with then it's not going to be much of a discussion.

As for the free points, they are relevant because they affect the "monetary value" of the powersets or anything else in the store.

As an example:

A well-known game publisher uses a virtual currency (I'll call it "Bux" to avoid naming them). Bux sell for 1000 for $10. You would think, then, that a piece of clothing in one of their games that costs 500 Bux would translate into $5, wouldn't you?

The things is, that the conversion between dollars and Bux is neither flat nor fixed.

When you buy Bux in quantity, you receive bonus Bux, effectively creating a discount of between 5% to 20% depending on the quantity.

Moreover, as pointed out upstream, Bux semi-regularly go on sale at a deep discount for limited periods of time. A typical discount is 35%, but at certain times it goes as high as 50% In the case of this particular publisher, there was an Event that prevented access to their games for a period of time and one way they made it up to their users was by offering a 66% discount for a short time.

Clearly, such a deep discount is an unusual event. Regardless, it has a dramatic effect on the "value" of Bux for anyone who snapped up a large quantity during that sale. I personally spent $60 on Bux at that time and I received $180 worth of purchasing power.

This is the important thing to consider - You can't look at the powersets, for instance, as being "worth $10". They are "worth" 800 Paragon Points. That is all. The value is going to be determined by the exchange rate of points to dollars.

If I was spending my Bux on these powersets, then the "monetary value" to me would be $3.33, which I would find quite reasonable. (Too bad I CAN'T spend my Bux on them. *laugh*)

Another player buying points at retail price might feel differently. Then again, she might not.

I participated in a beta test of a Facebook social game, and in discussing the format of the game, the devs spoke of a "feature" that the Facebook people had told them they would need. It seems that there is a class of people who LIKE to spend large sums of money. Maybe it's because it makes them feel good. Maybe they simply have a lot to spend and thus their own cash has little value (another topic entirely). Whatever it is, this class of users exists and Facebook has even nicknamed them "whales". Facebook advised that the developers of this game should deliberately include some big-ticket items purely to appeal to the "whales", and encourage them to spend their money. In a freemium game, the value of courting such players should be intuitively obvious.

When you see $20 for a shark mount, that's the "whale principle" at work.

Are powersets "whale items"? I don't really think so, but it's worth acknowledging that pricing isn't always about setting low prices on things. It may seem counter-intuitive but sometimes value comes from setting high prices on things. Wine is a real-world example of a luxury item that can be viewed by conneiseurs as being worth more simply because it COSTS more. If we were discussing celebrities, we'd call it "famous for being famous".

On a final note, sales often go the other way. That is, items in the store will have their point costs reduced. That also affects the "monetary value" of an item. This is compounded when you happen to own a lot of discounted points. When I use my 66% discounted Bux and buy an item that is discounted 50% in points, then my actual dollar cost is hardly anything at all. Yes, these are real example of real life, not made-up examples.

So, the "worth" of the powersets isn't really that easy to peg. Is a retail prices of 800 points a little steep? I dunno. I'd probably pay it so I guess my answer is "it is worth 800 points". The "value", after all, is whatever people are willing to pay for it, not what they are happy to pay for it.

The number of games that let you earn in game currency by playing the game is still pretty small. I think that someone needs to prove the business case for doing it,using proof that it really boosted revenue.

One internetz to you, BTW, for the Illuminatus reference.

Well, it wouldn't be if this wasn't precisely how the Paragon Market was being advertised. Several developers have listed as the Market's primary feature the ability to buy small items separately - "a la carte" as they have called it - meaning you don't have to shell out big bucks on bundles, but can instead buy little things one at a time. Fishing for whales seems to be pretty much the polar opposite of pretty much everything we've been told about the Market.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I completely disagree with this line of thinking. When you give someone a gift, you do not hold it over their heads. When you include something as part of a purchase, you should feel free to argue that it is part of the value of their purchase.

Paragon Studios is not gifting us 400 (550) free PPs a month. We are spending our monthly subscription to gain that, along with all the other things being a subscriber gives. Those 400 (550) PPs ARE the discount that subscribers get in the store. Rather than half off everything in the store, you get 5 bucks off everything in the store per month (with no minimum purchase required to gain that 5 bucks). That seems a fair way to do it to me.

As far as the price per powerset, I'd like to see the price set to 600 PPs, for a variety of reasons.

I think this is the perfect time to discuss the price points. I am sure one of the reasons they are releasing pricing information is to get feedback. If everyone stays silent, they might get the idea that 800 PPs is a price point everyone will love. For what it is worth, when I first started thinking about it months ago, I thought 4 dollars for a new powerset was correct. It still think that, which is one of the reasons I think 600 PPs is a good price point (which is $7.50 for a non-subscriber who buys points in the smallest package).

Sorry if I was unclear in my phrasing. I in no way expect the devs to lower prices immediately post-launch (barring sales) unless there is a massive, MASSIVE outcry. However, I very much expect them to lower the prices pre-launch at some point in the Beta process (much as they did with the E and A merits). They kept hammering in the point that "The issue is still in Beta and anything can change" for a reason.

But yes, lowering the costs too soon after the issue launches (excluding sales) would make them jerks. I wouldn't be opposed to eventual long-term price reductions though (ie after newer, shinier things come out).

I don't think the current list of products in the store actually contains any "whale" items. I'm no whale, but I'd spend $10 on a powerset if I liked it well enough. In the case of Street Justice, for instance, I have been waiting for, oh, close to eight years for a real fisticuffs-themed power set. There's no real question of my buying it, regardless of any monthly stipend. OTOH, $10 is right at the edge of what I'd find acceptable. In fact, weird as it might sound, I'd find $11 to be too much. I guess that's the $9.99 principle at work.

As far as the OP goes, I find the exercise of attempting to establish some objective price for a powerset and then insisting that anything more than that is gouging to be both futile and to be missing the point.

Pricing isn't set to some objective value based on past performance. You can't determine some value that is an objective "powerset value" any more than you can set some objective value for a barrel of oil and then insist that all barrels of oil should sell for that price. There are factors that influence the price - demand, supply, the source, the quality, the type, the season of the year.

It's no different with powersets or costumes or emotes or what-have-you. Until you can quantify the costs involved with developing a powerset and then quantify the demand for that powerset in order to do a revenue projection, you can't say much of anything about its value.

Thinking that you can somehow chop out the powersets of Going Rogue as being X% of the retail price, and then assigning that as a generic value of all powersets ever made or that will ever be made is the height of silliness. You might as well take every booster pack and chop out the emotes and come up with a "value" for emotes. I'm sure that such a value would show that Boombox emotes make the base client of the game a huge value...

*EDIT*

I'll just point out that one reason that you can't assign an objective value is that value is not uniform. The "premium" powersets are not premium simply because Paragon/NCSoft decided to call them that. The developers clearly feel that these powersets offer more bang for the buck than previous powersets. The game mechanics behind them are more complex than the basic powersets and the graphics have a higher degree of "flash", if you will. An objective evaluation, if such a thing is possible, can't be truly objective unless it takes those factors into account.

Demand curves still apply.

Presumably, Paragon Studios has done some market research, and they think they can sell X number of units at $10.

Let's call X 1000, for the sake of convenience. They like that number, because the set cost them less than $10,000 to develop, so they'll see some profit from it.

Could they move more units if the price was lower? Yes. But if lowering the price to $8 only increases the number of units sold by 10%, that's a losing proposition for them. 1000 units at $10 brings in $10,000; 1100 units at $8 brings in $8800. (If they believed that dropping the price point to $8 would double their sales, we would absolutely see $8 as a price point for powersets. And would probably have this exact same thread with different numbers.)

On the other hand, if they release the set at $10, and move 1,000 units, and then offer it on sale in 6 months at $8 and move another 100 units, they've made $10,800.

This is high-school economics, folks. If you feel that the utility of a powerset is closer to $8 than $10, you shouldn't buy it until it goes on sale for $8 or less.

(And this post is assigning real-world dollar amounts to Paragon Points; SlickRiptide's post about the flexibility in the currency are quite applicable to the situation.)

I have read the whole thread, but this post seems to illustrate your slightly histrionic attitude quite well.

In my opinion, you're not arguing from a level field as I for two reasons - your insistence that the free points are irrelevant, and your claim that we've bought powersets before.

I've never bought a powerset from NCSoft. I've bought GR and CoV and all the boosters.

And the free points ARE relevant to me, no matter how much you bleat on about them not being so to you.

As a VIP, I'll get a new powerset 2 months 'for free' 2 months later than sb who pays $10 at launch, if I do nothing? To me, this is not at all a problem. I'll probably do this for Titan Weapons. Street Justice I'll probably buy as soon as, and I don't think ten bucks is too much.

I'll pay more than you, obviously, for stuff. I dont think its important who's right in wether or mot stuff is 'worth' X bucks. What's important is wether NCSoft has accurately forecasted what prices the market will sustain. Grumbling abt prices is lRgely irrelevant, if you still click the 'buy now' button.

I'm personally fine with the mooted costs. I hope enough other customers are.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

That is exactly what I will do. The whole thing is (IMHO) entirely subjective and what another player is willing to pay (in points or real money) may vary widely from mine.

While I 'feel' that $7.50 (aprox 600 points according to Beta costs) is about right for a powerset, some may feel that is a bit too steep, and others may feel that it is a bargain.

But... The booster pack demanded the same amount of up-front investment as the proposed price for the powersets. If Titan Weapons went on sale today for $10 on the NCSoft store, what would happen? Would players go beserk for it and possibly crash the store?

I didn't propose any discussion nor have I continually dissed anyone... However, I understand how my comment could be taken as rather rude, it was rather short and unfriendly and I apologize. It was meant with a bit of lightheartedness.
What I really meant was that the conversation of money becomes extremely relative and often times pointless when the typical internet ambivalence factors in.
And it is also something that the people comfortable with spending more can easily dismiss those who are not.
I don't say this attacking-ly towards people who are willing to spend. It's just the way it is.
I'm entirely capable of dishing out $50 for a meal every night, it's nothing.
Is not a comment many people feel comfortable admitting that they certainly cannot.

Anyway... silly examples and egos aside...
And this is not just about someone who simply cannot afford xx amount of dollars (If they're scraping by, they shouldn't be spending money in ISP nor subscriptions, blah blah blah... but everyone has their Budget LINE somewhere, no matter how far or near it they may currently be)... plenty of people could afford things, but also stick to a budget (maybe they consider xx dollars as their limit, while they have a family and other more important things to use their money for... maybe their spouse won't allow them -hehe-, maybe they are on a tight budget, maybe <fill in the blank>).

What concerns me is the possibility of pricing out current and potential players. That is the only reason I bothered offering my opinion as to whether I thought the current beta prices were right/low/high.

No, no one has to spend a single penny more than they have been. That's good.
However, some of those people are not going to enjoy spending their happy fun pastime where plenty of people are buying and enjoying and using and displaying their new shiny purchased game additions.
Some of those people would rather leave than hang around that.

I'm not calling doom on any of this in a single way.
We're always going to have people leave for this or that reason.

What I am saying is that I constantly see people who are willing and capable to pay whatever state as such and dismiss those who suggest they can't or won't.
The last thing we need are Yeah, well then goodbye.

Some people seem to like the idea of having more to spend for, so if the game can keep matching my ability to spend... THE BETTER.
However, that would come at the cost of turning other players off.
It's just not represented in most of the discussions I see about spending money.

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There are basically three options.

a) you continue to subscribe, and use your bonus points to buy a powerset at some point.
b) You downgrade from VIP to Premium, which frees up $15 a month. You occasionally spend $10 for something you want - like a powerset.
c) You go premium and stop spending money on the game altogether, with the knowledge that there are some things you won't get.

The only people who are going to get 'priced out' are the people who have to have every single thing as soon as it is available. The completionist who must have everything as soon as it is available might get stung.

For everyone else, I think things will work out. I'm going to be sticking VIP for the time being. If I have three months of points saved up to start, and the powerset prices don't change from what's been quoted from ComicCon, I will have enough points to buy one of the two new premium sets. I'll have to pick and choose. I'll probably pick Street Justice, as I tend to like playing melee more than ranged characters. A month later, I'll get more points, and be able to get Beam Gun if I want it. At this point I've spent nothing above my subscription.

Six months later, Titanic Weapons come out. I've let my account lapse to Premium; I'm not spending subscription fees. I want the powerset, so I buy $10 worth of points. I've not spent $75 in sub fees, so I feel I can justify a little splurge.

Six months after that, they come out with an awesome new controller set that I want to play, but I've decided not to spend any more money on the game ever again. I just get to live without it, and be happy with the 8 controller sets that are already available to me.

That's my feeling, too. Only I don't think it's an apple to a meal, it's more like a mango to a marsupial.

The entire system of how CoX will be delivered to players is changing. Trying to pick apart two powersets from the old systems' only ever expansion pack, and then make a meaningful comparison to a purchase of a single powerset under the new system strikes me as utterly uninformative and useless.

And they came out once every two, three months. If they released five Booster packs on the same day, a lot of people might not only not buy them all, but also realise that they probably shouldn't buy ANY of them at all. This probably won't be a problem with costume pieces being doled out piece-meal, but it WILL be a factor with powerSETS because those can't be broken down.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

this line of thinking bothers me, not to point a finger at you, or anyone else who repeats it, it's not a personal attack. But this is how i see it, the devs will get as much as they can for each powerset (or any item/feature/doodad they sell), so if folks jump on the 800 point (10 bucks) powersets, then they will stay where they are. if no one (and these aren't absolute values, just above and below whatever threshold they have set) buys them, then the price will go down. i can see it possibly being lowered before street date IF, and that's a big IF, the community here and at SDCC raised holy heck and there was almost universal contempt for the pricing scale. but there hasn't been, and that vast majority of folks i see responding to these concerns use your line, "just wait, they will probably lower it". this alleviates the community ire, and therefore prevents ANY preemptive price lowering. so, overuse of your tagline above, can actually cause prices NOT TO GO DOWN, and again, the only way they will lower is if it doesn't sell to their expectations.

This guy gets it.

We would not be seeing these new powersets if it wasn't for micro-transactions. (Assuming, for the sake of argument, that they weren't all actually made to be released with Going Rogue before marketing had a better idea.)

So if you don't like microstransactions then pretend they don't exist. Pretend they haven't been introduced. Pretend the dev team don't have the investment from them. Pretend the dev team didn't use that investment to make the sets. Pretend you don't have these new sets in the game.

The naysayers still have the OPTION of not buying these sets, relying on the rarely released free sets, and maintaining their status quo.

I don't understand the butthurt.

Realistically I think 600PP is as low as they could go, for the reason you mentioned - it's just over Tier 9 VIP stipend, so subscribers will have to make the choice between saving up or paying more for instant gratification. Price it too high, though, and there's going to be a sizable contingent who will balk at the cost and decide to wait and accrue points rather than spending extra cash in the store.

I doubt that effort to create is the primary consideration for most consumers when assigning value to a product, though. They're more likely to look at its perceived utility/desirability vs. cost to them and go from there.

True, but in the past there's been an issue with people being okay with having to pay for "fluff" but not for things that affect actual gameplay mechanics. Rightly or wrongly, people may see the new powersets as something they "need" and therefore will be annoyed when they have to pay more for them, while being perfectly fine with costumes and other cosmetic items being in the store for what they would consider inflated prices.

This is where I am as well. If I were to go Premium, I'd probably choose to pass on Street Justice, Beam Gun and Titan Weapons - they sound interesting enough that I might try them out at a lower price point, but I won't pay $10 each just for new sets to mess with. Staff Melee *would* get my $10 since it's something I've been looking forward to for a while. The higher the price, the lower the volume of impulse buys. Hopefully there's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle.

Agreed.