Monetary value of new powersets...
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-07-25 12:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'll just say that, while no one will ever be able to convince anyone of a direct comparison and all of that...
I do think that the current beta price (as we've been told) is too high.
Not "too high" as in people can't afford it or anything... but yeah, I think, if you look at past expenditures, at how much is being put on sale and at the whole picture (from the customer's side), it seems to be a bit too far in the seller's favor.
That's my opinion, so anyone who wants to come in here and spew negativity to the OP or me for that... can have a very nice day 
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
If I subscribe for a whole year I get 6 new powersets, 1 every 2 months, before I even have to think about spending any extra money on this game. From my point of view all these powersets are free.
Give it time. Once the beta goes on I'm sure the prices will be adjusted.
And sales.
Once a month some other MMO keeps sending me emails about this and that which is now on sale in their stores.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
If I subscribe for a whole year I get 6 new powersets, 1 every 2 months, before I even have to think about spending any extra money on this game. From my point of view all these powersets are free.
|
The point of this thread is the monetary value of powersets.
This is not taking your "free points" into account as they have been described to us as an extra goodie for our continued support. Those points are free, you may spend them as you please- Therefore they are not relevant to, once again, the monetary value of powersets which is what I started this thread to discuss.
Yeah, I mean, free points for overpriced things still takes away more free points than otherwise!
Just saying!
Anyway... I've found discussing money with people on forums is not much better than discussing... well, much of anything...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
My thoughts?
I find it laughable when anyone chimes in on the 'paying for powers' debate with the battlecry of "It's been done before with COV and GR!!!1@!!" For the exact reasons you listed above.
Yes, while it's technically correct that we're locked out of 4 sets if we don't have GR. I simply can't view that as paying for powersets. It's an expansion I'm paying for, that happens to include 4 power sets, among a plethora of other goodies. Trying to claim that it has precedent because we have to buy the expansion to play the sets is silly.
Unless I'm missing something and buying Beam Gun set also gets me 3 or more new zones and arcs ala CoV and GR it just doesn't equal out.
However, that's just a personal gripe. I dislike when people that have a legitimate case use barely thought out reasons to justify it, when all they need to do is let it stand on it's own merit. All it does it weaken the case instead of reinforcing it.
No, simply put, no matter how anyone wants to 'Spin' it. Our $15 a month has given us every powerset (bar expansions) for free. This will change with Freedom and...
That is a really good thing! Seriously.
I gave much thought to it when F2P was announced. I knew we'd see powersets being sold eventually. At 1st I really didn't like the idea. Feeling like my 7 years of loyalty wasn't being considered, since the longtime players will be the ones wanting new sets the most (having played all the others)
I also don't go for the "Just use you monthly PP stipend" excuses as that ignores the fact that spending the PP on powersets negates the ability to spend it on anything else... No, fact is ViP's will be expected to shell out extra cash on top of the Sub from here on out. That too, is a good thing.
What changed my mind on the issue? What got me to go from being upset over it to actually wishing it would launch sooner? I realized the potential.
We've gotten used to getting 1 or 2 new sets a year. Sometimes not even that. This new model has the potential to put numerous new sets in our hands. By taking in money for specific items/features they can then turn around and put more time into creation of more. I realized that this new model means we'll get sets we've been asking for that otherwise would've never been created. That makes me smile.
I have no problem with having to spend $10 for a single powerset since I'll get 10 times the use out of it then the equivalent $10 server transfer. If it means Blasters get Martial Arts secondary sooner rather than later! It means Staff fighting and Street Fighting and numerous other sets get to see the light of day when they otherwise wouldn't.
That is a very good thing indeed!
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Yeah, I mean, free points for overpriced things still takes away more free points than otherwise!
Just saying! Anyway... I've found discussing money with people on forums is not much better than discussing... well, much of anything... |
Things that are given for free should not be taken into account when discussing the monetary value of other things...
Let's say my friend owns a car dealership.
I took him out to lunch every day for a year in high school, just to be nice, I was giving him something for free because I was that kind of guy...
Does that mean that when I need a new car, he should feel obligated to give me a discount!?!?
NO.
Quote:
That same MMO also sells Archetypes (what we call powersets, with less flexibility) for around the same price as CoH seems (around $10). Given we have far more flexibility in choosing our powers, the beta prices seems reasonable.
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
And sales.
Once a month some other MMO keeps sending me emails about this and that which is now on sale in their stores. |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
I agree on that point. $10 per powerset is just completely out of context with anything we've seen before. If you hit customers with that first thing out the gate, then there's nothing they can thing but that the game is trying to rip them off. And to be honest, that won't be too far from the truth. Freedom is supposed to be a time of new opportunities, so opening it by overcharging people just doesn't seem right.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Not "too high" as in people can't afford it or anything... but yeah, I think, if you look at past expenditures, at how much is being put on sale and at the whole picture (from the customer's side), it seems to be a bit too far in the seller's favor.
|
I'm not saying I won't get the things, especially if I have the "free" points lying about at the time, but it comes down to me cash-dropping $20 or $30 ON TOP of my $15 subscription? Yeah, no. Not gonna' happen. It will be the first time I've said an in-game item was far too expensive to justify. And this is coming from someone who bought the Party Pack.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
The free points do need considering, its effectively a $5 voucher for the store every month. And as Warden said, thats basically 6 free sets a year, 1 every 2 months.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The point of this thread is the monetary value of powersets.
This is not taking your "free points" into account as they have been described to us as an extra goodie for our continued support. Those points are free, you may spend them as you please- Therefore they are not relevant to, once again, the monetary value of powersets which is what I started this thread to discuss. |
Include Going Rogue in this calculation, but when was the last time the devs were able to output 6 sets in a 12 month period? As was the case for Going Rogue and Villains, that stuff was in the works for a long while, and it probably is possible they could put out more than 6 in a year, but will they be 6+ sets I care to play? probably not.
We'll probably see a bolus of sets around launch time, but then I imagine the devs will chug out a new set every 4 months, since they probably take anywhere from 6 months to 2 years to make a set based on it's technical difficulty.
yes if you look at the $10 cost of sets in a vacuum they are overpriced, This serves 2 purposes;
1) The I MUST HAVE IT NAO!!! crowd pay through the nose, for what, as VIPs they could eventually get included in their subscription if they waited. More money for the Devs to do more things with.
2) A logical evaluation of the cost vs gain of remaining a FREEM or Vet vs becoming a VIP (plus benefits of VIP in other areas) will hopefully push players into becoming VIP, making a more steady and reliable revenue stream.
So personally I think that the cost vs gain of VIP will probably have us paying out slightly more per year to get everything if we want everything. but not by a large amount, and nowhere near how much more expensive it will be to remain a Free player and purchase on an ad hoc basis.
If you're adamant on saying "Dont discuss the 'free' points" they have to be factored in somehwere, say you use these for boosters, then the money saved that you would have spent on a super booster, goes towards the next powerset.
On a less logical note, of course I would like them to be cheaper, but as was stated in i20 Open Beta, Prices start High and go down in beta, because its more player friendly. They would have been better off not mentioning their beta prices at all, but with SDCC that just wasnt an option.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
|
Quote:
These points are not given for free, you have to remain a subscriber. Something I was doing before but when I wanted new sets (which showed up very infrequently) I had to spend money in excess of my subscription. Now I get these new sets for free.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Things that are given for free should not be taken into account when discussing the monetary value of other things...
|
I'm saving money.
Quote:
For this I'll reference my last post:|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
The free points do need considering, its effectively a $5 voucher for the store every month.
|
Quote:
|
Things that are given for free should not be taken into account when discussing the monetary value of other things... Let's say my friend owns a car dealership. I took him out to lunch every day for a year in high school, just to be nice, I was giving him something for free because I was that kind of guy... Does that mean that when I need a new car, he should feel obligated to give me a discount!?!? NO. |
Quote:
| Include Going Rogue in this calculation, but when was the last time the devs were able to output 6 sets in a 12 month period? As was the case for Going Rogue and Villains, that stuff was in the works for a long while, and it probably is possible they could put out more than 6 in a year, but will they be 6+ sets I care to play? probably not. |
(Ignoring a part of your post as it was speculation)
Quote:
|
yes if you look at the $10 cost of sets in a vacuum they are overpriced, This serves 2 purposes; 1) The I MUST HAVE IT NAO!!! crowd pay through the nose, for what, as VIPs they could eventually get included in their subscription if they waited. More money for the Devs to do more things with. |
Quote:
| 2) A logical evaluation of the cost vs gain of remaining a FREEM or Vet vs becoming a VIP (plus benefits of VIP in other areas) will hopefully push players into becoming VIP, making a more steady and reliable revenue stream. |
Quote:
| So personally I think that the cost vs gain of VIP will probably have us paying out slightly more per year to get everything if we want everything. but not by a large amount, and nowhere near how much more expensive it will be to remain a Free player and purchase on an ad hoc basis. |
I can't stress enough that FREE POINTS ARE FREE and not to be taken into account in terms of monetary value of items for sale. See the first paragraph of this post for more info.
Quote:
| If you're adamant on saying "Dont discuss the 'free' points" they have to be factored in somehwere, say you use these for boosters, then the money saved that you would have spent on a super booster, goes towards the next powerset. |
We are moving to a free model to ensure more value for our paying subscribers. If you continue to pay, we will give you these free points just because you are important to us.
There was nothing in the sentiment about added inflation for the current value of items that would be rationally balanced out by the addition of these very sweet and courteous free points they chose to give us. (See: Indian Giving.)
Quote:
| On a less logical note, of course I would like them to be cheaper, but as was stated in i20 Open Beta, Prices start High and go down in beta, because its more player friendly. They would have been better off not mentioning their beta prices at all, but with SDCC that just wasnt an option. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
These points are not given for free, you have to remain a subscriber. Something I was doing before but when I wanted new sets (which showed up very infrequently) I had to spend money in excess of my subscription. Now I get these new sets for free.
I'm saving money. |
I was using the term "free" assuming we all maintain the current subscription we are already paying.
If one doesn't like paying for new Powersets with real money or their monthly, no-extra-cost $5/month coupons, then I guess that means they're stuck with just the 82 measly existing Powersets... and the other no-extra-cost ones, like Time Manipulation.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
I'll be saving up my monthly points. I'll also be busy with all the proliferation in i21.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
The monetary value of the powersets (at 800 points) is either good or bad depending on what you compare it to and how you value things.
For me:
Compared to buying Going Rogue on a sale for $10? The powersets are very expensive.
Compared to a Booster Pack? Powersets are almost certainly better value.
Compared to the Party Pack? Powersets are the bargain of the century.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Quote:
This is why I used the price of $30.00 for the entire GR expansion to do the math in my original post.. Even using that, we are being told the these new sets will cost us double what we paid for the last batch of new sets (which seemed the most logical reference point.)|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
The monetary value of the powersets (at Compared to buying Going Rogue on a sale for $10? The powersets are very expensive.
|
Another thing to take into account here is that one of the powersets included in GR was Demon Summoning, a Mastermind set which is an AT that will have a pay to unlock value of AT LEAST $10- A nice thing about microtransactions is the ability to objectively equate a monetary value to these sorts of things.
That brings the total value under the new model of "pay to play powersets" for subscribers to $2.50 based on the most recent instance of the same thing-- So we will be effectively paying FOUR TIMES AS MUCH for these new powersets based on the monetary value the staff have implied.
(Once again, I am using those as a reference point since that is the last time I can recall us being charged for powersets, so it seems the most up-to-date standard to hold it to) w
Since you seem to be more concerned with the monetary value of powersets in general as opposed to the issue of selling them I feel I should point something out.
The monetary value of powersets isn't something we can calculate as it isn't something we've ever seen before. Including expansions as they were far more than just powersets.
Quite bluntly, the $ value of powersets is whatever the Dev's feel like/can get away with charging. If they start releasing sets at $10 a pop and then a year from now release a set that took a bit more effort and charge $15 that's perfectly reasonable. They determine the price of the product. We determine it's 'Value' by choosing to purchase it or not.
As far as the sets being 'More than double' in cost? The tradeoff there is that these sets never would've made it past the drawing board otherwise.
If charging a bit more per set means we get 6 new ones this year as oppossed to 0 then it's worth it (to me).
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
This is why I've been trying to take everything into account in terms of the last time we were charged for sets.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Since you seem to be more concerned with the monetary value of powersets in general as opposed to the issue of selling them I feel I should point something out.
The monetary value of powersets isn't something we can calculate as it isn't something we've ever seen before. Including expansions as they were far more than just powersets. |
I'm assuming GR originally sold for $30.00 and included 4 new sets.
If you read my OP, that means we are still being charged $2.50 more per powerset.
I'm using the monetary values that COH is using in order to keep this fair...
That's not counting the Incarnate System- Also part of GR which is Pay to Unlock, thus lowering the last release price of powersets for sale even further...
Not to mention my last post when I reference the value the Devs have assigned for Masterminds.
Quote:
| Quite bluntly, the $ value of powersets is whatever the Dev's feel like/can get away with charging. If they start releasing sets at $10 a pop and then a year from now release a set that took a bit more effort and charge $15 that's perfectly reasonable. They determine the price of the product. We determine it's 'Value' by choosing to purchase it or not. |
Quote:
|
As far as the sets being 'More than double' in cost? The tradeoff there is that these sets never would've made it past the drawing board otherwise. If charging a bit more per set means we get 6 new ones this year as oppossed to 0 then it's worth it (to me). |
That's your personal view on the matter and you're welcome to it-- The point of this thread was an objective discussion on the value of powersets.
Quote:
My reference point is my wallet. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Once again, I am using those as a reference point since that is the last time I can recall us being charged for powersets, so it seems the most up-to-date standard to hold it to) |
In 2010 I spent $120 on subscription cost plus $30 for GR and I got 4 new powersets.
In 2012 I will spend $120 on the subscription to this game and get 6 new powersets.
Here is my data-point, for whatever that is worth.
I do not pay for things I think cost more than they are worth* even if I want them.
I did not pay money for the 'Party pack'
I like the idea of the new powersets, and would enjoy making characters with them.
I will not be spending money on the new powersets at their current price.
I might spend money on the new powersets if they were priced lower (for example; during a sale).
This is not an exercise in me telling other people what to do with their money, or their worth evaluations. I am only offering my position as a data point.
(*in this case worth is a subjective evaluation made on my part)
Quote:
The biggest mistake a business looking to sell things can make is price items such that people refuse to buy them. When it comes to virtual items that have no cost of replication, what you want is to have as many people buy them as possible. It's silly to try and extract as much money out of the few people willing to pay a lot of money for their virtual goods. That's why Steam is constantly having a sale on SOMETHING - because they have practically zero cost of software replication, and any extra players buying it, even if that's at the cost of a dollar, is still better than these players not buying it at all. Virtual goods are not like real goods, in that you're not manufacturing them, you don't have the overheads of shipping, assembly and installation. They're infinitely copyable for no cost whatsoever.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Quite bluntly, the $ value of powersets is whatever the Dev's feel like/can get away with charging. If they start releasing sets at $10 a pop and then a year from now release a set that took a bit more effort and charge $15 that's perfectly reasonable. They determine the price of the product. We determine it's 'Value' by choosing to purchase it or not.
|
Of course, software takes time, money and manpower to make. That much is obvious. A for-sale powerset needs to make back the money spent making it and turn a profit. Of course. But over-pricing it is not the solution. All that means is people who HAVE to pay for it won't and people who pay a subscription will just wait their free points out and get it like that. The point of Freedom should be to incite people to pay more. One of their driving philosophies was that you didn't have to commit to large purchases and could instead spend small amounts on smaller things. The goal behind this is that convincing people to spend smaller amounts is much easier than convincing them to spend large amounts. And yet we're expecting Freedom to launch with, what? Two, three $10 items in the store, along with how many others? And consumables for money, too?
Overpricing virtual goods is not the right way to turn a profit from them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
As far as the sets being 'More than double' in cost? The tradeoff there is that these sets never would've made it past the drawing board otherwise. If charging a bit more per set means we get 6 new ones this year as oppossed to 0 then it's worth it (to me).
|
The reason these powersets exist isn't because they can overcharge us for them. They exist because we asked for them, and because we swore up and down we'd pay for them. They exist because the development team couldn't justify the cost of manufacture before as the sets wouldn't have enough apparent appeal to bring a return on investment as part of a free Issue. Now that we're paying for them, the will have the return required to greenlight them. This is no different from when Matt Miller said the sales of the Wedding pack helped get villain Epic ATs out earlier - with more apparent income, they were able to budget the things earlier than expected.
The point of making these sets is to make people buy them. The point isn't to make them so expensive that people won't want to buy them, or will choose to wait and get them for "free" instead. This doesn't help the team in any way. What helps the team is Paragon Store purchases, and these will only happen in sufficient numbers when the price is right. Overpriced items released far too frequently just kill people's enthusiasm to buy, and I guarantee that this will happen.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Compared to a sawdust-y corn dog and the funnel cake I had at the fair today? Quite a bargain.
|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Compared to buying Going Rogue on a sale for $10? The powersets are very expensive.
Compared to a Booster Pack? Powersets are almost certainly better value. Compared to the Party Pack? Powersets are the bargain of the century. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reiella
Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
. |
According to what I've read here on this board, the Beam Gun and Street Justice (I think I got the names right) will hold a monetary value of $10.00 each. Now I'm trying to figure out the monetary value of powersets.
As far as I'm aware, the last time we had to 'pay' for powersets was:
1.)Dual Pistols
2.)Kinetic Melee
3.)Demon Summoning
4.) Electric Control
Since I'm trying to figure out what these sets were worth, IRL money-wise to the COH staff...
These were all a part of Going Rogue.
I'm not sure what GR originally sold for, because I wasn't around when it first came out... But based on a quick Google search, it at one point sold for $30.00
Now, if these 4 powersets were all that were included in GR, that would mean that they held a value of $7.50 each.... STILL $2.50 cheaper than these new sets... But that's not it! Going Rogue also came with:
1.) The tip system
I'm not sure if free accounts will be able to access this.
2.) The Incarnate system
I know that free accounts won't be able to access the Incarnate System, and I would place it at a MINIMUM of one ten dollar fee.
Now, if we factor that into the original cost of new power sets last time we had to pay for them, it would bring it down to $5.00 each. Already half the price that is being charged for these new sets, and that's assuming the tip system will have no monetary value.
3.) An entire new DIMENSION
Three of the most beautiful zones COH has seen, as well as new arcs, new contacts, and just... Wow, Praetoria is amazing. I would consider it the most valuable part of the GR expansion.
I feel like it cost the staff much more time, manpower, etc. to create Praetoria than these new powersets.
Now, I know we'll be getting free zones in issue 21, which makes that a sort of moot point (since they will be creating 3 new zones with all new story arcs, I think?)
However, based on the math I already did of the previous monetary value per powerset, we are still going to be charged DOUBLE at release...
The thing that really bothers me here is that the Devs went out of their way on announcement day to let us know that the F2P model is meant to give more to currently paying subscribers, and that was why they initiated it. All rainbows and sunshine... They were giving us these free paragon points just to be nice.
But of course, they waited for the dust to settle before they informed us (indirectly, of course) that they would be valuing any new additions at more than double than they were previously valued before this was initiated...
Feel free to share your thoughts.