On the ground or near the ground powers.
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-06-03 09:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Aren't the suggestions forums further down the list?
@Roderick
\sign I don't mind a near the ground solution, I just hate how tping makes PGT unusable until the mini fly ends
from a design point of view, its very flavour filled, its thematic and it makes sense from the powers.
from a design point of view its horribly limiting, any content has to account for this 'feature' but sometimes they don't... look at Hamidon, Greens get deaded when held. but PGT is all but useless, unless you get onto the little invisible platform the mito stands on.
Why my trapper can't put little jetboosters onto his PGT or the acid mortar when I can put some on my boots, I don't know... i'd love to be able to place those in the air where I want them.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Like rooted or granite where you cant step up a curb, but if you fire off seismic smash, you can jump 5 feet in the air? That makes sense?
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
from a design point of view, its very flavour filled, its thematic and it makes sense from the powers.
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Since when does Seismic Smash put you in the air?
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Like rooted or granite where you cant step up a curb, but if you fire off seismic smash, you can jump 5 feet in the air? That makes sense?
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I'm guessing he meant tremor.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Since when does Seismic Smash put you in the air?
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The powers are not being singled out because of a players chosen travel power. The player is making the choice to pick and use a travel power that is incompatable with thier other power choices. The discription is right there when you pick the powers. You make it sound as if after you picked fly as your travel power, the devs came in and said, "hey, lets make footstomp a power that requires you to be on the ground because it would piss off Johnny" and that is not the case.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I ask again, after all this time, can we please get this silly limitation lifted?
Once I asked Castle point blank if was a balance point and he said that normally it wasn't. So I don't see why plenty of good powers should be invalidated because you want to use Hover or Fly. There are aesthetic concerns, yes. 'How does Foot Stomp stomp the ground if you're in the air?' is a question that gets asked whenever I brought this up with Castle. My reply remains the same: It just does. Just like how Whirling Hands works in the air, when it's a very similar ground hitting attack. Or how Fire Aura works when in water or how you can call down Warburg satellite nukes in a cave...in another dimension...thousands of years in the past. So I ask that it be considered for ground-only powers to get a similar 'whirling hand wave' and stop being singled out because of a player's chosen travel power. . |
Just because some things seem a bit out of place ( how did Imperius get a cell phone?) does not mean that the rest of the game has to be, or even should be the same way.
Edit to add more stuff. Whirling hands is a spinning attack like Whirling mace or axe. The damage comes from spinning around and hitting all the foes around you, not from hitting the ground and having the ground cause the damage (Unlike footstomp). Fire circle sword, same thing damage comes from the sword (lethal) and the fire (uh fire) not from the ground (smashing). Those powers are not getting a waive of any kind.
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Sister Airlia bought one from Arachnos and had Daedalus create a generator for it powered by slaves with rowing machines as part of a plot to gain political influence.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Just because some things seem a bit out of place ( how did Imperius get a cell phone?) does not mean that the rest of the game has to be, or even should be the same way.
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She gave one to Marcus Valerius too.
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except this is a conversation about what powers require you to be near the ground to activate, not what powers pull you to the ground or the limitations of their implimentation.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Like rooted or granite where you cant step up a curb, but if you fire off seismic smash, you can jump 5 feet in the air? That makes sense?
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nor is it a conversation about what powers you imagine launch you into the air?
Stone Spears from earth assault is a brilliant example of this. a ranged damage power, whos name illicits a very cool looking animation from me, but what I think and what the devs designed are different.
theres one similarity, what they came up with, and what i thought it would be, both involved the ground factoring into the animation, theirs like punching the ground, mine like propel.
However a big difference between how I saw it and they saw it, as that my version would have been able to hit flying targets, and affect them, while the Devs version does not.
it's clearly a design driven choice based on the aesthetics of the animation on why this power cannot be used in the air, nor affect things in the air.
its a very good design driven choice, when basing it purely on the aesthetic, but when basing it on gameplay and functionality and useability, its a very poor choice.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Talk to the midnighter at the entrance to Cimerora. He does tell you.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Just because some things seem a bit out of place ( how did Imperius get a cell phone?) does not mean that the rest of the game has to be, or even should be the same way.
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Except in the case of Peacebringers, Who are GIVEN Energy Flight/Combat Flight, and then later also GIVEN Solar Flare, which does not work with their GIVEN Travel/Defensive power.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
The powers are not being singled out because of a players chosen travel power. The player is making the choice to pick and use a travel power that is incompatable with thier other power choices. The discription is right there when you pick the powers. You make it sound as if after you picked fly as your travel power, the devs came in and said, "hey, lets make footstomp a power that requires you to be on the ground because it would piss off Johnny" and that is not the case.
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(EDIT: For the record I have no problem with the vast majority of Grounded powers. For the most part they make thematic sense, and that's enough for me. Solar Flare however boggles my mind. There's NO reason this should require being grounded (aside from the foot stompy animation, which Ice Melee's Frozen Aura also uses but DOESN'T require grounding, so even that's moot).
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Probably the silliest power to require grounding is Flash Freeze in the Ice Control set. That's a power that someone really knocked themselves out making sure it would be unpopular. In addition to having twice the recharge, twice the cast time, a higher endurance cost, a damage component (6 pts of damage at level 50) to prevent stacking, and less range than comparable powers, it also requires the target be on the ground.
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Valid point for PB.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Except in the case of Peacebringers, Who are GIVEN Energy Flight/Combat Flight, and then later also GIVEN Solar Flare, which does not work with their GIVEN Travel/Defensive power.
(EDIT: For the record I have no problem with the vast majority of Grounded powers. For the most part they make thematic sense, and that's enough for me. Solar Flare however boggles my mind. There's NO reason this should require being grounded (aside from the foot stompy animation, which Ice Melee's Frozen Aura also uses but DOESN'T require grounding, so even that's moot). |
Is there a reason why "must be near the ground" powers can't simply ground the caster slightly before being cast? So you basically powerbomb the ground when you footstomp. That would solve all my problems with those powers. And then remove the requirement from Lightning Rod, because that power deserves to be cast from the air, just like Shield Charge.
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I have no problem with powers that make sense to be grounded, foot stomp is a perfect example of one. Whirling hands is not, as others have said it is a spin not an attack coming up out of the ground. Besides if you really want foot stomp balanced to whirling hands, I think there a large outcry from the players.
Now that doesn't mean I don't think the powers should be balanced with these limitations in mind. Or that some powers have limitations they shouldn't. Glacier is one, you freeze everything around you solid, unless you fly.
Dirges
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You are correct. That is what I meant. Pretty sure you can use jump kick in rooted and granite as well. I say pretty sure, because I have never actually taken the power.
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Originally Posted by Pampl
I'm guessing he meant tremor.
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Power animations that involve jumping aren't considered by Rooted/Granite, because as far as the game is concerned you AREN'T jumping.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
You are correct. That is what I meant. Pretty sure you can use jump kick in rooted and granite as well. I say pretty sure, because I have never actually taken the power.
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Tremor, Total Focus, Thunderstrike, Jump Kick, useable with grounding toggles.
Eviscerate was also useable back when Brute Claws was in beta, and if an AT with Stone Armor ever gets MA then Eagles Claw would work as well. (At least until the Devs flagged the sets to be incompatable for visual/thematic reasons, like they did with Claws. Which is a shame cause being able to make an MA/Granite might actually get me to level the god awful looking Stone Armor, just for the novelty of "Giant-Stone-Boot-To-The-Face.")
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Castle said that 'ground only' wasn't a balance point|
Originally Posted by Dirges
Besides if you really want foot stomp balanced to whirling hands, I think there a large outcry from the players.
Now that doesn't mean I don't think the powers should be balanced with these limitations in mind. |
The damage, recharge etc of Foot Stomp isn't being calculated around the fact that it is ground only according to him. The reason it was made ground-only is purely an aesthetics issue.
He didn't even object to some powers having the ground-only restriction removed at the time I spoke with him about it. He made it clear it was simply a matter of having to involve the animation guys. That and the fact he was on his way out.
So, the devs don't(didn't) have balance concerns with making such a change, it's a question of animation resources.
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I understand that, I just figure if you are going to incorporate a thematic rule, it should be consistant. Kinda like when Jack said that thematically, it made sense for the mobs to run away from the burn patch. While ignoring other powers that deal death, and obviously do so, and the mobs are perfectly fine to chill out in.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Power animations that involve jumping aren't considered by Rooted/Granite, because as far as the game is concerned you AREN'T jumping.
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You might think it's fine from a mmo game balance perspective, I think it's not okay from a 'it doesn't make sense' perspective.
You say if you take footstomp, it doesn't allow you to take fly. I say if you're going to take fly, why take footstomp?
Who is right? The answer then is neither, because they are opinions. I'm glad however that the devs seem to side with me though.
'Why don't powers work the way I like?' should be your real question. And the answer is 'because they don't'.
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Well, now that's stretching it, isn't it?|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I understand that, I just figure if you are going to incorporate a thematic rule, it should be consistant. Kinda like when Jack said that thematically, it made sense for the mobs to run away from the burn patch. While ignoring other powers that deal death, and obviously do so, and the mobs are perfectly fine to chill out in.
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Thematically, your average Skull should run away from anyone chucking a giant boulder, throwing ice, setting off fireballs, creating tornados. Well, if we want to be thematic, they should just run away from anyone in tights unless they are +5 levels or something. Jack had a lot of 'ideas' and most of them like this made no sense.
I have no problem with a pyre of fire being forced to be on the ground, but saying mobs particularly are afraid of one power more than another, a power which isn't a FEAR power in itself, is silly.
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I know the devs don't balance around the ground restriction, it is based around thematic reasons or other short cuts. That doesn't change my thoughts that powers with penalties should also have extra benefits. Which would also take less resources to do then to make alternate animations for attacking in air. That being said, it would be hard to use foot stomp as an example since it already breaks the mold for aoe melee attacks.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Castle said that 'ground only' wasn't a balance point
The damage, recharge etc of Foot Stomp isn't being calculated around the fact that it is ground only according to him. The reason it was made ground-only is purely an aesthetics issue. He didn't even object to some powers having the ground-only restriction removed at the time I spoke with him about it. He made it clear it was simply a matter of having to involve the animation guys. That and the fact he was on his way out. So, the devs don't(didn't) have balance concerns with making such a change, it's a question of animation resources. . |
Dirges
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That was jack for you. Nice little trick with burn, is if you activated it, and timed a jump just right, you could actually have the patch about 12 feet off the ground. Nice for low mitos.
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Originally Posted by Comfort
I have no problem with a pyre of fire being forced to be on the ground, but saying mobs particularly are afraid of one power more than another, a power which isn't a FEAR power in itself, is silly.
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...more like, how many times do you have to hear 'no' to stop?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I ask again, after all this time
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I ask again, after all this time, can we please get this silly limitation lifted?
Once I asked Castle point blank if was a balance point and he said that normally it wasn't.
So I don't see why plenty of good powers should be invalidated because you want to use Hover or Fly.
There are aesthetic concerns, yes. 'How does Foot Stomp stomp the ground if you're in the air?' is a question that gets asked whenever I brought this up with Castle.
My reply remains the same: It just does.
Just like how Whirling Hands works in the air, when it's a very similar ground hitting attack.
Or how Fire Aura works when in water or how you can call down Warburg satellite nukes in a cave...in another dimension...thousands of years in the past.
So I ask that it be considered for ground-only powers to get a similar 'whirling hand wave' and stop being singled out because of a player's chosen travel power.
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