On the ground or near the ground powers.
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-06-03 09:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You do know fire does work in water, right? Psionic attacks can have physical effects like throwing people around, so they are not just a mental attack. DP true they don't reload near enough, but at least they do reload once in a while. Also your invoking the rule of cool doesn't apply. The only example close Fire is the only real cool set mentioned, the other two are just average, with SS being cooler.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/1...set-fire-water
Also I find foot stomp and hurl to be ground restricted as fun and cool, and that it does not need to go.
Dirges
Quote:
No. Psionic attacks don't have any effect because they don't exist.|
Originally Posted by Dirges
Psionic attacks can have physical effects like throwing people around, so they are not just a mental attack.
|
.
I'm with Johnny on this. SS and Fly not syncing well together only ruins about half the iconic superhero examples out there. And it has kept me from modeling toons after them. I've got a SS Brute that would used Hover and Fly *IF* footstomp could be used while they're on, but nope, she run and jumps instead.
If aethetics is the problem while in the air, let Footstomp be a 'handclap' while flying, more forceful that the other handclap so that it causes damage, and let Hurl be superbreath, some sort of directed shockwave, or whatever. But let them be used.
Quote:
SS and fly aren't incompatible. You can pick flight on a super strength character, still fly around and punch things. If you want to use the 'effects' of super strength, like lifting heavy things or causing a seismic disturbance with your power, you need 'those things' to make such techniques to work. You're not pulling objects out of time and space to throw, you're ripping up the ground. If you can't just toggle off hover every now and then to use such attacks, I wonder just what you're actually doing in combat that *requires* you never touch the ground.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I'm with Johnny on this. SS and Fly not syncing well together only ruins about half the iconic superhero examples out there. And it has kept me from modeling toons after them. I've got a SS Brute that would used Hover and Fly *IF* footstomp could be used while they're on, but nope, she run and jumps instead.
If aethetics is the problem while in the air, let Footstomp be a 'handclap' while flying, more forceful that the other handclap so that it causes damage, and let Hurl be superbreath, some sort of directed shockwave, or whatever. But let them be used. |
Would it be nice if Footstomp while flying was another type of attack? Or that Hurl was a super breath? Yeah, maybe. But so would giving me a scythe set for my Stalker and ice powers for Scraps/Stalks/Brutes.
Quote:
Sickles are something I could see happening as a custom weapon for Dual Blades and Axe.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But so would giving me a scythe set for my Stalker and ice powers for Scraps/Stalks/Brutes.
|
But a scythe is a hard sell. You hold it differently than you would almost any other weapon, so it's not going to be an option you'd see for Polearms if they ever do that set.
Brutes are in a better position now to accept Ice than they've ever been. I can see this happening in the next round of proliferation.
.
Quote:
I'm at S/L softcap. If I took fly, I'd have to give up another pool (either jumping or leadership, thus losing combat jumping or maneuvers) and I'd then be a few points from softcap (and that matters - look up several threads on the topic of you don't believe me). |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
SS and fly aren't incompatible. You can pick flight on a super strength character, still fly around and punch things. If you want to use the 'effects' of super strength, like lifting heavy things or causing a seismic disturbance with your power, you need 'those things' to make such techniques to work. You're not pulling objects out of time and space to throw, you're ripping up the ground. If you can't just toggle off hover every now and then to use such attacks, I wonder just what you're actually doing in combat that *requires* you never touch the ground.
Would it be nice if Footstomp while flying was another type of attack? Or that Hurl was a super breath? Yeah, maybe. But so would giving me a scythe set for my Stalker and ice powers for Scraps/Stalks/Brutes. |
If hover could be used all the time, it could replace one of those and I'd stay at softcap. But you can't use hover while footstomping, and no SS toon isn't footstomping while in a bunch of mobs, and no, toggling hover on and off between footstomps doesn't work - you lose too much time between attacks. This is from experience - I really did want a flying SS toon
Quote:
The way I see it: since you can bypass the -def of the Rage crash, you can eat up a 3% def deficit for cutting off Hover.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I'm at S/L softcap. If I took fly, I'd have to give up another pool (either jumping or leadership, thus losing combat jumping or maneuvers) and I'd then be a few points from softcap (and that matters - look up several threads on the topic of you don't believe me).
|
Have a nice day.
Quote:
Oh that big bad ol' Rage. Even with it, SS is still inferior for dealing AoE and ST damage than sets that don't have a crash at all. How dare there be circumvention of a penalty for the benefit of being brought up to average.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The way I see it: since you can bypass the -def of the Rage crash, you can eat up a 3% def deficit for cutting off Hover.
|
If this game had a boogeyman...
.
Quote:
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that SS deals inferior AoE and ST damage than all of the other sets.
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Oh that big bad ol' Rage. Even with it, SS is still inferior for dealing AoE and ST damage than sets that don't have a crash at all. How dare there be circumvention of a penalty for the benefit of being brought up to average.
If this game had a boogeyman... . |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
I didn't say that at all.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that SS deals inferior AoE and ST damage than all of the other sets.
|
.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Oh that big bad ol' Rage. Even with it, SS is still inferior for dealing AoE and ST damage than sets that don't have a crash at all. How dare there be circumvention of a penalty for the benefit of being brought up to average.
If this game had a boogeyman... |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I didn't say that at all.
|
That said, I still don't quite understand why posters clamor over SS's AoE dmg or figure it's that competitive with ST sets when all it's really got is Knockout Blow...
...but then I don't have any Super Strength characters at all. I've got a Stone Melee, so I know how the whole 'need to be on the ground' works, but I do know that Rage is broken. The ability to negate its crash and even *stack* its effects is the definition of broken. The End.
Quote:
Oh it is, but the "bug" of stacking happens to almost make up for the rest of the set lacking. Castle said as much that the penalties of Rage stacking (the massive increase in end consumption and increased downtime) are the reason it was allowed to continue under his tenure.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
but I do know that Rage is broken. The ability to negate its crash and even *stack* its effects is the definition of broken.
|
I think Rage should get 'fixed', but not until some changes are made to the rest of the set.
.
Quote:
SS is the only set with a crash. You said it was inferior to the other sets that don't have a crash, so yes, you did say that.
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I didn't say that at all.
. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
As far as sets go, SS has always been above average/high-tier in both AoE and ST damage from every study I've seen. Other sets may exceed in one aspect, but not by much, and tend to fall much lower in the other aspect.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
Out of curiosity, do you know what being at the softcap means?
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The way I see it: since you can bypass the -def of the Rage crash, you can eat up a 3% def deficit for cutting off Hover.
Have a nice day. |
Quote:
That's odd, considering it only has one AoE attack and one hard hitting ST attack. Both diminished right off the bat by being heavily resisted Smashing damage.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
As far as sets go, SS has always been above average/high-tier in both AoE and ST damage
|
And then there's the crash itself, which periodically kills damage output. A power intended to increase your damage has a penalty of lowering your damage. Yeah, that make sense. /sarcasm
Quote:
| from every study I've seen |
For AoE it never could compete. Having one AoE attack tends to do that, no matter how grand some people think that attack is.
Coming in 4th and having to suffer penalties nobody else does for it doesn't sit right with me.
"Joker of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.
.
/unsigned
If it makes sense to be a ground only power, I say make it a ground only power.
My Fire/Earth Dom has Hover and Teleport.
My SS/FA Brute has Fly.
My FA/FM Tanker has Fly.
So no the next question, how do you rip a chunk of concrete out of the ground when you're 60ft in the air?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
You dont carry concrete with you? I know i do, last thing you want to be be stuck with is a wood floor to rip stuff out of.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So no the next question, how do you rip a chunk of concrete out of the ground when you're 60ft in the air?
|
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Quote:
Or when you're clearly standing on a metal grate walkway. Or on top of a battleship.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
You dont carry concrete with you? I know i do, last thing you want to be be stuck with is a wood floor to rip stuff out of.
|
Kind of like how AR, Thugs and DP characters carry unlimited ammo.
If they never run out of bullets no matter where there are, why should I need to get rocks off the ground?
For that matter:
If Claws can project a Focus shockwave through the air that damages enemies, so can Foot Stomp.
.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Or when you're clearly standing on a metal grate walkway. Or on top of a battleship.
Kind of like how AR, Thugs and DP characters carry unlimited ammo. If they never run out of bullets no matter where there are, why should I need to get rocks off the ground? For that matter: If Claws can project a Focus shockwave through the air that damages enemies, so can Foot Stomp. . |
As an SS tanker who flies I do take both points here.
Firstly, I would happily drop the "stack" of rage in exchange for the drop (of the 10 no damage seconds) any day of the week.
He's right in saying that SS isn't a strong enough damage giving set to justify it.
It considerably weakens my average DPS output, especially when in a long fight, paricularily if I happen to be ..
flying...
There's no real way round that one. I don't agree with Johnny that because some NCPs can conjure up weapons that don't fit theme, we should be able to pick up and throw rocks when we are in mid air.
But he has an undeniable point. These factors do, to one extent or another, gimp the set and should be addressed.
For example, can't we use the handclap animation while in the air while dishing out the same AOE damage in place odf a footstomp effect?
Hurl is a trickier beast but I do think that in the interest of parity and fairness it should be looked at.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Quote:
If we exclude KM from the list (which would be the case from the last charts I've seen put out), you would be looking at ten sets with SS coming in 3rd at higher recharge rates (Just behind EM and DM, with Stone being a close 4th) in the single target category. In AoE It sat right in the middle, beating out EM, SM, DM, and BA (this was dependent on how many enemies one is looking at). Elec, Fire, WM, and DB pulled ahead of it.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
That's odd, considering it only has one AoE attack and one hard hitting ST attack. Both diminished right off the bat by being heavily resisted Smashing damage.
And then there's the crash itself, which periodically kills damage output. A power intended to increase your damage has a penalty of lowering your damage. Yeah, that make sense. /sarcasm IIRC, SS was 3rd or 4th for single target damage, until +Recharge came into play when it dropped considerably. Now with KM, and changes to other sets since I'm willing to believe it's dropped further to 5th. For AoE it never could compete. Having one AoE attack tends to do that, no matter how grand some people think that attack is. Coming in 4th and having to suffer penalties nobody else does for it doesn't sit right with me. "Joker of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. . |
Rage's crash is offset by its duration. You're saying it's suffering penalties no one else does, but it also has advantages no one else has. That's called balance.
"Better than most, not as good as some" is more appropriate.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
How much AoE damage does it have...in the air?|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
In AoE It sat right in the middle, beating out EM, SM, DM, and BA
|
Or even a half-foot off the ground for that matter?
.
As much as any set that is stomping nothing.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
But less damage than sets that slash nothing and fire ammo they don't carry or load.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
As much as any set that is stomping nothing.
|
.
Why should you be gimped because of a travel power?
More importantly, why should the devs essentially say: "Oh, you want to Fly and use SS? Up yours buddy. We're discouraging that combo for no good reason. You're either out two powers or you pick an inferior attack or you waste a pick on Hover, a power that you can't even use in combat. Why? Because that's less work for us."
You don't have to do that with Combat Jumping.
"Sorry, can't throw a Fire Ball. Combat Jumping. Rules is rules"
This is no different than Dual Pistols never running out of ammo, Fire attacks working in water and Psionic attacks defeating mailboxes. If you want to wave the 'realism' flag, none of this stuff exists. No superpowers or flying men. We all let that slide for fun's sake.
I'm invoking the Rule of Cool.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
So many powers being incompatible with flight isn't fun and it isn't cool. It's a silly limitation, it's unfair to some sets with little to no basis in game balance. It needs to go.
.