Problem: Kicked from BAF because "I was an add and he was doing a 16 man only"

I agree with you. Just because a few people want to be selective about who they team with doesn't mean that everyone will form private leagues. It takes a very harsh person to assume that everyone will do that.

o.O It wasn't greifing.

The League Leader made a team with 15 other people for their BAF, they started it, the game then said "Here's another."

It's no more griefing than a star holder kicking someone off a STF for, for example, not using their powers and just being a waste of space.

Having the star kinda gives you that right, for whatever reason. It sucks for the non star holders, but that's how it's always been.

Not everyone can access the BM from anywhere.

Agreed. I think the queue has a lot of potential, but these trials -- which require a certain amount of coordination and strategy -- are not a very good use for it. Which is why so many people are working around it by forming their leagues in advance.

The queue would be great for things like Rikti invasions or Mothership raids, which tend to turn into chaotic free-for-alls anyway.

Making judgments about other players based solely on whether they want to team with random people is pretty harsh of you. I'd also caution you against making assumptions as to how people run trials based on their viewpoint in this thread.

It is a given that some players will want to be selective in who they team with. Sometimes it is elitism (and IMHO there is nothing wrong with a bit of elitism as long as it's in moderation) but that is not the only reason people could want a private league. It could just as easily be that they want to team with their friends and chat about personal topics without an outsider being able to see the chat. Or maybe they want to do some runs under controlled conditions in order to test something in which case having an extra player would change the conditions (for example an all-Defender BAF which has a Tanker added to it).

There will always be people who want to form a specific team and as long as the queue allows them to join as a league and gives the league leader the power to kick people they are already able to. Adding a "lock league" feature simply means that they can do so more conveniently and avoids putting other people in the position that Halon was put in.

If someone is added to a pre-formed but understrength league wouldn't it be better if they were added to a league that wanted them instead of one that didn't?

Assuming that there is another league forming at that time, and I can tell you that isn't always the case.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

This disallows players from attempting to run an 8 man Lambda or 16 man BAF if they choose to. Since we have no difficulty settings on these trials how else would you recommend we attempt to raise the difficulty level?

Case in point: We did a 9 man Lambda today, one team of 8 and a PUGger added by the "turnstile". (Note: We did not kick the PUGger.)

In defense of your position, I would certainly NOT want to see people w/o SGs or Coalitions locked out of these trials due to elitism. (I hate elitism and I'm better than everyone else because I do! :P ) OTOH, the person who is feeling rejected CAN start their own trial.

Nevertheless, this is yet another argument in favor of creating Incarnate content for smaller groups (e.g. 1-4 players).

But we're working on the assumption that if people had the option, they'd ALWAYS have locked leagues. Gotcha.

I can understand the fear that people might find themselves unable to do content because they're incapable of finding teams without the queue. But take a strong stance like this, you'd think before the LFG tab people were unable to ever find ITF teams, or Rikti Raids, or STF/LRTFs. Just because Leagues might want a limited size doesn't mean LFGers would be incapable of forming their own trials.

I think you have a very limited definition of "better." It would be better if they made it so that people looking to form a Lambda or BAF who are just looking for more bodies could flag their league to auto-invite people sitting in the queue looking for the same trial. Be honest, in the majority of trials you've been on was the league leader cherry picking people or sending out global messages to build the team to the max size? A set up like this would have been much better, and it could have allowed for people to lock their league if they wanted to.

The fear of people never finding leagues if this happened is baseless.

There should be no expectation of players wanting to form a private league in the current trials.

As for raising the difficulty, try unslotting incarnate abilities. There is also an indication that the raid leader's difficulty settings also affect mob size. The mere fact that you are running less than the maximum amount of players automatically reduces the difficult of the trials, in case you didn't know. The game automatically scales to league size on the trials.

Yes, because those wouldn't be multi-team raids.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Did someone say there should be an expectation?

I thought scaling implied congruent reduction. Not just easier overall.

We're talking about "trials." And the minimum amount for one of them isn't even multi-team. It's cool if you don't agree that people should be able to control league size, everyone's entitled to disagree, but can't you at least make more reasoned agruments than smarmy remarks, word-play trickeries and obvious neglect of the other side's concerns.

It is human nature. There will always be more excuses (and that is all that they are, excuses) to turn away people than reasons to team with people you don't know.

I've been in situations where both occurred. I've been a league leader either cherry picking (and not always to the max amount) or just sending out global messages to build teams. If I don't have a full league when I've started, I fully expect people to be added from the queue.

In fact, I've welcomed them with 1 exception. That person was on my ignore list (for griefing multiple MoLambda attempts) and someone else wanted them. They didn't get to queue with me. If they tried to enter with the queue, they wouldn't have succeeded because of the ignore restrictions.

It is only better if you accept that private leagues are good for the game. I don't. The queue system was meant to open opportunities for players to come together, not keep them apart.

Just like I think the reasons for wanting private leagues are baseless.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

You started a thread in the player questions section with that expectation.
Less mobs, lower ranks.
The trials are raids. It doesn't matter if one of them has a minimal size of 8, they are still raids. They are not strike forces, they are not task forces. They are new tech meant to open players to teaming with other people. If you have teamed with another player and dislike them to the point of ignoring them, then (and only then) should the game step in and prevent them from teaming with you.
As far as I see, there really isn't any reason to have or expect a private league. All the expectations for limiting and locking leagues are, from my perspective, excuses for denying people access to the raids.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

And this argument, as much as ANYONE wants to pound it, is complete and utter BS.

People who want to team with other people will do so, no matter what's put in place. Hell, there was a point where missions were broken for a short time and you could bring multiple teams into *regular missions* - and people did so.

People who only want to team with SPECIFIC people, or who decide, for a single raid, to have a smaller amount (or only want to do, say, a blaster-only trial, or a defender-only trial) should have the ability to do so - without having the game coming in to say "By the way, here's some people you didn't want to team with to join your project! Have fun!"

There's no lack of willingness to team NOW. But statements like the quoted seem to imply there is - like this is nothing but City of Soloists, and the devs had to step in and force this tech through to show us how wrong we all are.

Control over teaming should be in the hands of the players. The hammer doesn't tell the carpenter what to build. The tool should be controlled by the one who uses it, not overriding their wishes.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Nope, I'm lazy so my trials are always first come, first served. I do prioritize slightly in that I use certain methods before others but in general my recruiting strategy is:
1. Go to one of the RWZ zones (select one that isn't to full to avoid having the league not fit).
2. Post messages on a few global channels, take whomever responds
3. Broadcast a LFM message, take whomever responds
4. Send tells to people with their LFG or LFT flag up and ask if they want to join
5. Send tells to people in other instances of the RWZ who don't have their flag up but look like they might want to join.
6. GOTO2

I do this until either the league is full or I am bored and think we have enough at which point I start.

The only reason that I pre-form trials instead of using that queue is that in my experience not enough people are using the queue to make it worth it. I'd rather grab people ahead fo time, it's simpler.

Precisely, I don't mind being placed on a random team as long as everyone involved has chosen to be placed on a random team. Gating team content by saying you have to have a random team (or use the loopholes in the system to avoid it) is asinine.

People wanting to team with their friends isn't asshattery.

The casual player suffers here. With minimal time to commit to the game at any one sitting, casual players need the auto teaming feature for these trials. To queue up and wait only to be kicked and wait again is frustrating.

As a casual player, I would like to experience most if not all the content offered. I'm not informed enough to present a solution; however, I would like to see a solution that can cater to both casual and hardcore players.

No, they don't.

The casual player can bring up the team window and see where all the 50s are and go there - since that's likely where the teams are forming. Given I've sat in LFG for a good half hour or more at a time (purely out of curiosity, really) while leagues get formed, vanish and *finish their trials,* the casual player should pretty much be ignoring the tool at this point.

It's still also not an argument against people being able to create private leagues. If anything, it's an argument FOR it, as it would prevent the kick in the first place.

The LFG tool needs work - such as letting both those in queue and those who want to start iTrial raids see how many are in queue (and who they are.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

If you had the same opinions as me all the time, that would be just too much awesome for one forum to contain.

I started a thread asking if it was possible, but I suppose that means I expected to be able to do so. Perhaps I misread who you quoted. I do expect the devs to anticipate this would be a desired mechanic; controling the size of ones team/league.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's easier than a full size league, and you know it.

No, the trials are new tech for forming UP TO certain amounts of teams who want to acheive the same goal, and for gaining access to new rewards. The LFG is a tech made for grouping people, and that should be adjusted so that the OPs situation doesn't happen. Because regardless of your limited perspective, people will kick LFGers if they want to, and they suffer from that when they could have been placed in a team that was open to them.

So the game should be built around your limited perspective, and not to something that works for both sides? Man, and they say people looking to limit their league side are elitists.