Problem: Kicked from BAF because "I was an add and he was doing a 16 man only"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-03 19:29 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Maybe "need" is to strong. It sure is nice to click the LFG queue then go to Wentworths to do some buying then crafting or even go look for badges all while waiting for the trial to start.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, they don't.
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Sitting in a RWZ hallway waiting for a league to fill up is not a wise use of time now that we have this fancy new tool.
You can't "lock" the hive because it isn't instanced.
The trials are instanced. There's no reason not to allow them to be lockable. I have no idea what hamidon raids (or for that matter, mothership raids) not being "lockable" has to do with the LFG tool not being lockable.
It the devs truly don't want us to be able to play with our friends and only our friends in the incarnate system, then it's their fault when we kick people out for being added against our will in a trial group we formed and organized ourselves ahead of time. It's not our fault that we're doing the best we can despite their, frankly, idiotic design decision here.
I had no idea that locked leagues weren't an intended feature. It flabbergasts me to think that any designer with two brain cells to rub together wouldn't realize people don't want to have teammates forced on them under any circumstances. Edit - we put up with it in non-instanced raids because we have to and we recognize everyone's right to be in public areas. Instanced areas by definition aren't public ones. We have an expectation of selectivity in who we play with in them.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Yes, it was brought up. However it was implemented the current way anyway. It was also promoted as an inclusive system, not an exclusionary system.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
I started a thread asking if it was possible, but I suppose that means I expected to be able to do so. Perhaps I misread who you quoted. I do expect the devs to anticipate this would be a desired mechanic; controling the size of ones team/league.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
That doesn't necessarily mean it's easier than a full size league, and you know it.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
No, the trials are new tech for forming UP TO certain amounts of teams who want to acheive the same goal, and for gaining access to new rewards. The LFG is a tech made for grouping people, and that should be adjusted so that the OPs situation doesn't happen. Because regardless of your limited perspective, people will kick LFGers if they want to, and they suffer from that when they could have been placed in a team that was open to them.
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If there are that many leagues, then the player would be on one already. There wasn't so the game put them into that league expecting that players are less likely to be jerks and perhaps meet a decent player just looking for a good time.
The best possible solution is to remove the ability for players to be jerks, so the best possible fix for people in the queue just looking to play is to remove the ability to make a league before entering the trial.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
So the game should be built around your limited perspective, and not to something that works for both sides? Man, and they say people looking to limit their league side are elitists.
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Which can be done through normal means (socially - go to pocket D/RWZ, go through channels) without being forced on people who don't want that - and who, via kicking the people they didn't want joining in the first place, don't waste other players time.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
There wasn't so the game put them into that league expecting that players are less likely to be jerks and perhaps meet a decent player just looking for a good time.
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| The best possible solution is to remove the ability for players to be jerks, so the best possible fix for people in the queue just looking to play is to remove the ability to make a league before entering the trial. |
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| "Because I don't want to team with people outside a limited group" isn't a compelling argument in an MMO. |
/Hide (from everyone, or from specific groups.)
You can already limit who you want to team with, and it hasn't hurt the game. Continuing this to trials would not hurt anything, and would in fact be MORE helpful and LESS damaging (socially and time-wise) as it won't have people getting kicked from groups they wouldn't have been in in the first place.
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Actually, the zone are instances. Even Atlas Park is an instance.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
You can't "lock" the hive because it isn't instanced.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
It the devs truly don't want us to be able to play with our friends and only our friends in the incarnate system, then it's their fault when we kick people out for being added against our will in a trial group we formed and organized ourselves ahead of time. It's not our fault that we're doing the best we can despite their, frankly, idiotic design decision here.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I had no idea that locked leagues weren't an intended feature. It flabbergasts me to think that any designer with two brain cells to rub together wouldn't realize people don't want to have teammates forced on them under any circumstances. Edit - we put up with it in non-instanced raids because we have to and we recognize everyone's right to be in public areas. Instanced areas by definition aren't public ones. We have an expectation of selectivity in who we play with in them.
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Semantics. WHich you're using poorly.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually, the zone are instances. Even Atlas Park is an instance.
At some point you will have to accept that the sole responsibility for a leader kicking another player rests solely with the person doing the kicking, no one else. It isn't the developer's fault, it is the player's unreasonable expectation that there be private leagues that is causing the problems here. Hami Raids and Mothership Raids are instanced. You can have up to 50 players in either of those instances. More than 50 players locks the zone, just like 24 players locks the BAF or 16 locks Lambda Sector. |
The hive and mothership raids are *population limited* - like every OTHER zone. They are not created specifically for the event. They exist whether it's going on or not, as far as the server's concerned - much like Founders Falls, Nerva, Dark Astoria and the like. They are not, in that definition, "Instanced."
The BAF and Lambda ARE. Just like every (non-hunt/talk-to) mission. They are created specifically for that one event/mission - thus, instanced.
More than 24 or 16 does not "lock" Lambda sector. I can't walk into Lambda sector on my own - it does not exist WITHOUT an ongoing raid.
Your use of 'instanced' is semantics. Those zones aren't created specifically for one team or league to operate in, solo players can access them and do so.
And no, it's the developers' fault when players evolve otherwise new and possibly anti-social/deviant/dysfunctional responses to their intentional design decisions. It's part of the developers' jobs to anticipate how players will react to these things, and it's hardly unexpected that people are going to want to simply team with their friends.
As someone up-thread posted: It's not asshattery or selfish or anything else, to just want to play your friends.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Exactly how often are people being kicked from a trial once it starts because they came in from the queue? Please be as accurate as possible.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Which can be done through normal means (socially - go to pocket D/RWZ, go through channels) without being forced on people who don't want that - and who, via kicking the people they didn't want joining in the first place, don't waste other players time.
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Have you kicked anyone for that reason? Would you kick someone for that reason? If the answer is "no", then I'm going to assume that you are a decent person until proven otherwise. I expect that the developers also expect that the majority of people will accept people from the queue as well.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You can already limit who you want to team with, and it hasn't hurt the game. Continuing this to trials would not hurt anything, and would in fact be MORE helpful and LESS damaging (socially and time-wise) as it won't have people getting kicked from groups they wouldn't have been in in the first place.
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It obviously IS happening, or the question would not have been raised. I don't have numbers - but neither do you, so stop trying to set that little strawman up. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Exactly how often are people being kicked from a trial once it starts because they came in from the queue? Please be as accurate as possible.
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| Have you kicked anyone for that reason? Would you kick someone for that reason? If the answer is "no", then I'm going to assume that you are a decent person until proven otherwise. I expect that the developers also expect that the majority of people will accept people from the queue as well. |
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| Unless this is happening in the thousands or even hundreds of times since Issue 20 has launched, then I'd suggest that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. |
All of this speculating on *private* league elitism/exclusion is strictly academic, bordering on fantasy.
Since I started playing CoV, I have always had a VG of one (there were two but she quit a long while back). My global friend list consists of about 15 people, most of whom have not been on for months if not years. Just about all the grouping I've done during the past 4 years have been accomplished by PUGing, including these trials. Now, these perceived "handicaps" should make me a prime candidate for exclusion, right? Wrong. Since the launch of i20, I have managed to fully equip 9 of my level 50s (so far) with Tier 3 rare. Prior to this, again by PUGing TF/SFs, I equipped all 18 of my main account level 50s with Tier 3 Alphas. Am I just extremely lucky or unique in some way? I think not. I simply take a more proactive approach to things instead of awaiting charity from others.
It's all really quite simple. So what if some people want to control/limit the size of their leagues? It's not like there aren't other full sized leagues out there recruiting. If I can't find a trial league within 5 minutes, I will just start my own. I can just pick up whoever that's available and get rolling. It's not as if BAF/Lambda really requires a full league to beat these days considering how many +2/3s we have running around. I certainly don't rely on a broken tool like the LFG queue as my fall back option. Grouping is not a right and neither is the fantastical ideology of "equal opportunity". It's only equal up to a certain point and after that, good luck. For anyone (including the devs) to try to shoehorn others into forced grouping is as idiotic a concept as any I can think of in the world of MMO.
Bottom line, if one league does not want you, dust yourself off and try again. Better yet, form your own league so you can run it however you like. The options are not so limited that you have to force your way into that one, single, league. All the griping, moaning, whining in the world is not going to change a damn thing. People are always going to prefer seeing who they are grouping with instead of getting "set up" like some online blind date website.
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Same can be said of SG Bases and missions. There isn't any difference.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Those zones aren't created specifically for one team or league to operate in, solo players can access them and do so.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
And no, it's the developers' fault when players evolve otherwise new and possibly anti-social/deviant/dysfunctional responses to their intentional design decisions. It's part of the developers' jobs to anticipate how players will react to these things, and it's hardly unexpected that people are going to want to simply team with their friends.
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As far as wanting to simply team with their friends, the developers are looking to make incarnate content for solo and small teams. Until such time that content is made, the way the system works in this case is clear.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
It's not asshattery or selfish or anything else
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You can't lock the hive because the devs won't give you that ability. I'm pretty sure the ability exists, though, so if you're saying the reason we can't lock the Hive is because its not lockable by technical limitation, that's a false assumption. In other words, its a UI limitation, not a server limitation.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
You can't "lock" the hive because it isn't instanced.
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To amplify what SnowGlobe said, when the Hive reaches its designated character limit, the server spawns a new instance of the Hive. The second instance is not in any way different from "Hive prime" - both are just instances of the map. Heck: the only reason why I can't enter your missions while you are in them is because no contact or door leads to them for me, not because they are "locked." And the game has many bugs that often drop people into other player's missions, proving that nothing about those missions is truly "locked."
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| It the devs truly don't want us to be able to play with our friends and only our friends in the incarnate system, then it's their fault when we kick people out for being added against our will in a trial group we formed and organized ourselves ahead of time. It's not our fault that we're doing the best we can despite their, frankly, idiotic design decision here. |
And just like with all other parts of the game, people are free to blame the devs for their actions, claiming the game "forces" them to do things that are frowned upon by many other players. However, just as its your right to view the game in that way, its the right of every other player to decide if they will accept that reasoning, or instead focus their attention on the player doing things they don't like rather than blaming the environment for "forcing" them to do it. My stated choice is to say that the devs can present a bad environment, for some definition of bad, but every player is responsible for their own conduct as it applies to how they treat other players. I hold no one responsible for one player negatively impacting another player's gameplay but the player themselves.
I don't judge anyone for their opinions. I have no problem with a player thinking the situation itself is stupid. But I would judge a player for taking the specific action of kicking another player out of the trials, and being "forced" to because the game deigned to add the player to their league without their permission is not sufficient justification for that action in my opinion.
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Hey Flux_Vector and Lothic. how about YOU quit the League if you get a Pugger in your run?
Really, people need to think how inconveniencing it is to be the poor person who suffers the wrath of the kind of people that would do such a thing.
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That's actually semantics. The technical truth is that BAF and Lambda aren't specifically created for one team or league to operate in either. One league operates in them only because that's what the turnstile allows, and no other reason. But you cannot say the turnstile only allows a single league to enter so the zones are intended for only one league, then turn around and say the turnstile allows adds to the league but the turnstile is wrong because the zone was never intended for that.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Your use of 'instanced' is semantics. Those zones aren't created specifically for one team or league to operate in, solo players can access them and do so.
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The truth is that every single instanced map will allow anyone and everyone into it, up to the occupancy limit, so long as there's a path for the character to get there and so long as the character doesn't violate a map constraint. Your "instanced" missions aren't protected against unwanted players, it just doesn't have a means for them to enter them. If that is seen as proof instanced missions are specifically *intended* to be private, then the fact that the turnstile allows players to enter the trials individually has to be seen as proof that is the intent as well: the trial maps are not intended to be private.
Anything else *is* semantics, because the intent is clear. *Everyone* has to enter the trials through the turnstile. The turnstile collects all the players that want to enter, and throws them into the trial, adding them all to one league. That is its expressed intent, and the reason why you aren't allowed to lock the trial is because that's contrary to intent. And that is the only reason you aren't allowed to lock Skyway or the Hive as well: contrary to intent. There is no other reason for either situation. There certainly isn't a technical one.
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Because we made the effort to organize our friends into a group. If we're making it a democracy by saying the PUGger is equal to the leader, why don't we have the league vote instead?
Other MMOs that have 'random matchmaking teaming systems' have vote-kicking as a method.
In the end, all of the animosity could be solved if people weren't being foisted on teams who didn't want them. If that wasn't anticipated ahead of time it's a shocking oversight. If as several posters have implied it was intentionally designed this way, then it was stupid, and that decision is directly responsible for every kicked PUGger.
And I will not pull that punch or use another word for it, I'm calling it like I see it. And unlike some posters, I already don't have early-access secret pre-beta invitations or backroom channels to the developers, I have no fear of losing their good graces or concern for defending them and no motive to jump on grenades like this one for their sakes.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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The Hive exists (or is maintained by the server) whether anyone's in it or not. So is the RWZ. So is every other "real" (I'm going to use that versus the upcoming "instanced' reference) zone - if nobody's there, Adamastor still spawns in DA, the fires still break out in Steel Canyon and the like. And I do put SG bases in this, as the power/control state is monitored and held constant despite occupancy status. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can't lock the hive because the devs won't give you that ability. I'm pretty sure the ability exists, though, so if you're saying the reason we can't lock the Hive is because its not lockable by technical limitation, that's a false assumption. In other words, its a UI limitation, not a server limitation.
To amplify what SnowGlobe said, when the Hive reaches its designated character limit, the server spawns a new instance of the Hive. The second instance is not in any way different from "Hive prime" - both are just instances of the map. Heck: the only reason why I can't enter your missions while you are in them is because no contact or door leads to them for me, not because they are "locked." And the game has many bugs that often drop people into other player's missions, proving that nothing about those missions is truly "locked." |
By comparison, the "instanced" zones do NOT exist until there's reason for them to do so - your mission is *not* shared with the next person (barring hunt/talk to missions in the open zones.) The orenbangan cave you're running through to find Percy Winkley doesn't exist until needed. Nor does the BAF. If there were no difference, we couldn't reset a mission by picking another then heading back. The zone for missions - and the BAF and Lambda - are destroyed when not occupied.
Much like I can choose to solo a mission, invite only friends, or grab anyone from the zones who wants to to run that mission (or task force) whatever way I like, the trials should let me do so as well. It's the way teaming has gone here in - well, quite some time, and that flexibility is exceedingly welcome. Much like the statement you make in your next point - "Other games force it on you," to boil it down, well, there's a reason I'm not playing "other games." (I hated it in STO, while I tried that out.)
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| I don't judge anyone for their opinions. I have no problem with a player thinking the situation itself is stupid. But I would judge a player for taking the specific action of kicking another player out of the trials, and being "forced" to because the game deigned to add the player to their league without their permission is not sufficient justification for that action in my opinion. |
Errr, the people directly responsible for the kicked puggers are the people who had the star.
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I don't have a problem with that intrinsicly. Where I have a problem is when a player decides to take their disagreement over the design of the system out on another player. If you don't like adds, complain to the devs. But those players are playing the game as intended, joining the turnstile to be added to a league that is entering the trials exactly as intended, exactly as the game is both encouraging and enforcing. They've done nothing to deserve being kicked except being a minor inconvenience to a player that wants to control their trial experience to a higher degree than the game currently allows. And if a player decides that absolute control is worth hurting another player's experience, that crosses a line I don't agree should be crossed.
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Originally Posted by baron_inferno
So what if some people want to control/limit the size of their leagues?
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Who are only kicking people forced into the league against their wishes in the first place.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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And the person being kicked is done so against their wishes. Your kind is not the victim, your victim is the ultimate victim.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Who are only kicking people forced into the league against their wishes in the first place.
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That is not "taking it out on" another player. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't have a problem with that intrinsicly. Where I have a problem is when a player decides to take their disagreement over the design of the system out on another player. If you don't like adds, complain to the devs. But those players are playing the game as intended, joining the turnstile to be added to a league that is entering the trials exactly as intended, exactly as the game is both encouraging and enforcing. They've done nothing to deserve being kicked except being a minor inconvenience to a player that wants to control their trial experience to a higher degree than the game currently allows. And if a player decides that absolute control is worth hurting another player's experience, that crosses a line I don't agree should be crossed.
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That's attempting to take some control of the gaming experience.
"Taking it out on" another player, to me, would be - for instance - following them around and destroying spawns they need... or training higher level spawns TO them. Intentionally doing something for the express purpose of ruining their gaming experience.
Kicking them is no different, IMHO, from kicking someone who accidentally joined your team because of a typo. "Sorry, was looking for rogue angel, not rouge. My Typo. GL,HF!" *kick* is perfectly legitimate - not "taking it out on" somone else.
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I don't think the person being kicked wants to join a team that doesn't want them, either. And they don't have a choice in the matter either way, themselves. They're being set up to be a victim by the design.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
And the person being kicked is done so against their wishes. Your kind is not the victim, your victim is the ultimate victim.
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"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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That's a distinction without a difference. If I were to convince the devs to keep an instance of BAF running at all times, empty or not, and to fork copies as needed, would that change anything in your mind?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The Hive exists (or is maintained by the server) whether anyone's in it or not. So is the RWZ. So is every other "real" (I'm going to use that versus the upcoming "instanced' reference) zone - if nobody's there, Adamastor still spawns in DA, the fires still break out in Steel Canyon and the like. And I do put SG bases in this, as the power/control state is monitored and held constant despite occupancy status.
By comparison, the "instanced" zones do NOT exist until there's reason for them to do so - your mission is *not* shared with the next person (barring hunt/talk to missions in the open zones.) The orenbangan cave you're running through to find Percy Winkley doesn't exist until needed. Nor does the BAF. If there were no difference, we couldn't reset a mission by picking another then heading back. The zone for missions - and the BAF and Lambda - are destroyed when not occupied. |
The reason the Hive is there even when there's no one in it is for efficiency. And you don't actually know the BAF instance doesn't exist if no one is running the trials.
If you want me to concede this quibble, fine, I concede the Hive is not instanced by your definition of instanced and not the game's definition while the trials are instanced. What does that buy you exactly, since the entire side track was started based on the assumption that the trials should operate based on the game's rules for instances. However, if we abandon the game's definition of instances and go with yours, the game has no obligation to operate the trials by your definition of instances. You've just vaporized any value the instance argument might have had.
Incidentally, you don't actually know for certain BAF and Lambda don't exist when no trial is running. Its entirely possible the game has an instance of BAF and Lambda ready to go prior to a trial starting for efficiency purposes, and a new one is forked whenever the existing one is being used to be ready for the next turnstile group, even if that is not likely. If that were true, would that mean anything to you? Because if it wouldn't, your argument would be void.
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I don't have proof, you're right. And despite your relationship with the devs (which, to be clear, I'm not putting down in any way, it's helped in many instances, just stating,) I'm not sure you do either. You mention having "an instance" of BAF and Lambda "ready to go and forked as needed," but I highly doubt it - it would, *to me,* seem rather wasteful.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a distinction without a difference. If I were to convince the devs to keep an instance of BAF running at all times, empty or not, and to fork copies as needed, would that change anything in your mind?
The reason the Hive is there even when there's no one in it is for efficiency. And you don't actually know the BAF instance doesn't exist if no one is running the trials. If you want me to concede this quibble, fine, I concede the Hive is not instanced by your definition of instanced and not the game's definition while the trials are instanced. What does that buy you exactly, since the entire side track was started based on the assumption that the trials should operate based on the game's rules for instances. However, if we abandon the game's definition of instances and go with yours, the game has no obligation to operate the trials by your definition of instances. You've just vaporized any value the instance argument might have had. Incidentally, you don't actually know for certain BAF and Lambda don't exist when no trial is running. Its entirely possible the game has an instance of BAF and Lambda ready to go prior to a trial starting for efficiency purposes, and a new one is forked whenever the existing one is being used to be ready for the next turnstile group, even if that is not likely. If that were true, would that mean anything to you? Because if it wouldn't, your argument would be void. |
Now, you could say the same about the zones - except that the zones, in many cases, have events going that need to be tracked. Lucsca, the Ghost Ship, Invasions and the like. So while there may not be a client reading that data, that data is being maintained and updated.
There's no reason for it to be for my missions, for (say) the infamous bridges map in ITF or for BAF/Lambda. (As for what it would change in my mind if they were? Well, it wouldn't *improve* my opinion of the current dev team - I'd think they were adding inefficiency for no good reason.)
Regardless, you may see this "side track" as pointless, but it goes right back to "Why give the players this level of control?" After all, it started with Snow Globe's argument - as odd as it was - that league locking shouldn't be allowed because you can't lock the RWZ and the mothership raid that takes place there. (paraphrased.) The game may not have an "obligation" to set up Incarnate raids that way - but they did, so I do not agree with you that the argument would be "vaporized," nor do I agree that the level of control (leagues lockable at a level below maximum/rejection of LFG puggers) should be disallowed for these.
Now, I'll give that there would likely be extra programming work involved - the league interface can be used for mothership raids as well, and locking a league there accomplishes nothing as anyone can start a new one and go to the exact same mothership - but I will *not* take that as a reason for the functionality to be denied to other uses like the BAF/Lambda.
Whether they acknowledge it as such or not, I suspect, but cannot say, that the devs at least sometimes believe as I do in this regard. At other times not. In this case, the game design is consistent with the belief that making the trials dependent on the turnstile is adding another option to gameplay, which from my point of view does the playerbase a service. the players who do not see that as an option but rather as a lack of options will disagree and find that line of thought unconvincing. Regardless, since I'm unlikely to give up my fundamental perspective on options trivially, I have to assume the devs won't either. If the devs have a similar fundamental perspective then the answer to your question is, unfortunately this: they see it provide a service you will never see as an actual service, but some others would.
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