Problem: Kicked from BAF because "I was an add and he was doing a 16 man only"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-03 19:29 in Suggestions and Ideas
I bought this up during the open beta and honestly I can't say I'm particuarly surprised. I'm sorry you got kicked but at the same time a system which adds people to teams where they are (potentially) not wanted is going to cause this sort of problems.
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I actually had an experience like this myself, but the mechanics are fine,|
Originally Posted by Halon
Apparently the LFG tab's mechanics added me to a private run or something. I watched the movie after it started, called my pets, went inside, and then shortly found myself with the Cap loading screen.
Asking the leader why I was kicked, they said I was an add on his private 16-man BAF run. Fair enough, but why was I added? It wasted my time inside, but worse, it wasted my 15 minute "first available" wait outside. Worse, I have to get in another queue to run again -- with no guarantee I won't accidentally be placed on someone else's private run. I don't know the solution, but it's a problem. Clearly you need to let people tag private runs and/or let the lead refuse people without costing the randomly-queued applicants their spot in the queue. It's irritating enough the "3 min estimated" waits are really 10-15 minutes. But to waste the bigger wait for no good reason is really bad. |
The LFG functions for the incarnate trials are kind of misnamed, since it implies your looking for a team for the trial.
What really happens is this, when you click on that function and place yourself in the q, your qing up for the trial. Once a critical number is reached, the system gives x amount of time to join the trial, and then everybody is placed in as a league.
You can enter that Q solo
You can enter that Q as a standard 8 man team
or enter it as a premade league
If a league enters a q and enters the trial, any solo toons out there also in the q are also placed automatically in the league as well
the reason why people tend to form leagues prior to entering the Q, is that it makes it more reliable about starting a trial, ie a trial needs a min number of toons to start, and if you have a league built already, you don't have that wait time.
In other words, he was being a jerk. Technically he had no more of a right to that trial than you did, but some people are just funny like that
If your on Freedom, just head to Pocket D, it should be easy enough to get on a pick up league, and just avoid that mess( With a league either building or in between trials out on the floor, I have yet to have to wait more than minute after broadcasting that I am interested in one or the other trials)
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I disagree. While I don't particularly condone kicking people who are simply the victims of a poorly designed system why should the team leader have been forced to take additional people on his team? At no other point in the game are you forced to add people to your team simply because the game decides you have to take them.
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Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
In other words, he was being a Pr*ck. Technically he had no more of a right to that trial than you did, but some people are just funny like that
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It wasn't a private raid man, it was a League Leader being a $*&%^! because people didn't want to deal with the lag on a BAF.|
Originally Posted by Halon
Apparently the LFG tab's mechanics added me to a private run or something. I watched the movie after it started, called my pets, went inside, and then shortly found myself with the Cap loading screen.
Asking the leader why I was kicked, they said I was an add on his private 16-man BAF run. Fair enough, but why was I added? It wasted my time inside, but worse, it wasted my 15 minute "first available" wait outside. Worse, I have to get in another queue to run again -- with no guarantee I won't accidentally be placed on someone else's private run. I don't know the solution, but it's a problem. Clearly you need to let people tag private runs and/or let the lead refuse people without costing the randomly-queued applicants their spot in the queue. It's irritating enough the "3 min estimated" waits are really 10-15 minutes. But to waste the bigger wait for no good reason is really bad. |
But todays patch fixed that issue. So you will see full BAF teams running again.
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Or... it was a private league.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
It wasn't a private raid man, it was a League Leader being a $*&%^! because people didn't want to deal with the lag on a BAF.
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It's my understanding that the 'locked teams' is supposed to prevent people being added from the queue, thereby allowing people to build private leagues, but the locked teams is a bit buggy. For example, sometimes there will be someone alone on a team, and the game will lock the team without that player doing anything. And then the player can't unlock the team, and the league leader can't move them ,since their team is locked.
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I was just asking about this in the questions thread. We were running a 8-man Lambda (and only wanted 8) when someone got thrown into our league (as their own team) upon starting. We didn't kick the person since it wasn't there fault, but we were a bit miffed as well.
Suggestion: Make a Lock League feature that prevents others from entering a trial in process (or during the queue).
For those that think the the league leader was being unreasonable, think again. The game doesn't give you any means to avoid the situation if you want a private league. Nothing says you HAVE to take extra league members YOU DIDN'T INVITE.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
When I run BAF trials with only 16 players, we usually end up with 1-3 extras from the LFG queue. While I do not boot the adds myself, I could understand the rationale behind why some league leaders don't want to have more people than they originally intended. Personally, I just dump the extras into a team of their own and be done with it. Sure they'll end up with next to nothing in iexp but at least they'll get the end reward.
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Doubtful. Even if BAF reverts back to its state prior to last week's patch/fix, there will still be some time dilation when you run it with 24. Remember that the BAF lag (particularlly during the runner phase) has always existed since i20 launch and the only thing the patch from last week did was making it worse. Until the devs resolve the server side issue, I will most likely continue to run 16 player BAFs.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
But todays patch fixed that issue. So you will see full BAF teams running again.
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Because the mechanics of the trial and the LFG queue are new, and defined to work this way. Trials are defined to be for multiple teams. The intent is for people to build teams in any location they like -- not just Pocket D or RWZ -- and then queue for the trial. The system takes the various teams and creates a league from them. Solo players are just the degenerate case of one-person teams. But the downside of this system is that there's not enough information to make pickup leagues reliable.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. While I don't particularly condone kicking people who are simply the victims of a poorly designed system why should the team leader have been forced to take additional people on his team?
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Most people are treating leagues like giant teams and feel the need to pick every single person in the entire league (see below for why). It seems most people don't even realize that that the leader of each team in a league can still invite additional players. If they did so, the whole process of building the league would proceed faster, instead of making the leader invite every single player. Actual play during the trials breaks down along team lines as well -- each team is generally assigned one task for each segment of the trial.
Most "private" trials aren't really private, because few league leaders are actually drawing members from SGs/acquaintances only. Most of the time they have to solicit at least a few members from the general population.
Now, I'll certainly be the first to acknowledge that pickup leagues have the potential for disaster. But if people instead built balanced standalone teams and then queued, this wouldn't be an issue.
The problem, of course, is that we don't know how many players/teams are in the LFG queue. So there's no way to tell how long the wait will be. So league leaders -- almost of necessity -- build the whole league to make sure they can actually start.
We thus have the worst combination: old fashioned mechanisms to build teams, and a new system that could potentially build a non-viable league out of random individuals and teams.
To fix this we should be able to register a team for a trial without queuing for it. The names and ATs of players registered (or queued) for a trial should be visible. That would give people the option to talk to other like-minded individuals to form a league, if desired, or they could just queue their teams for the trial.
Then, when the system decides to start up the trial (when the minimum number of players are queued) it should display a window with all the candidate players for the trial. Participants could see who all is there, and judge whether the league is viable. When you click Accept you would be displayed as such in the window. This would also resolve the issue of "which moron didn't click the button to enter the trial?" You could see who accepted as they did so.
With this system there'd be no surprises when everyone zoned into the trial. You will have agreed to the league composition ahead of time and not just dumped into the trial with some totally random group.
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The leader was being unreasonable. The reason why the game doesn't give you any means to make a "private" league is that the developers didn't want private leagues.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
For those that think the the league leader was being unreasonable, think again. The game doesn't give you any means to avoid the situation if you want a private league.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Nothing says you HAVE to take extra league members YOU DIDN'T INVITE.
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Report the league leader for griefing.
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The issue is, if a group of people can form a group (whether a single team or a league) that meets the minimum requirements for the trial why should they be forced to take additional people? Supposing you were planning to run a 3-man Positron TF with your friends but when you started it you got two extra people randomly added to the TF (and one of them had the star), how would you feel about that?|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Because the mechanics of the trial and the LFG queue are new, and defined to work this way. Trials are defined to be for multiple teams. The intent is for people to build teams in any location they like -- not just Pocket D or RWZ -- and then queue for the trial. The system takes the various teams and creates a league from them.
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I complained about this in the sneak peek forums and I'll continue to complain about it. Not allowing people to form teams the way they want is just poor design. The fact that the system makes an exception for full leagues is just adding insult to injury.
If the queue was set so that Leagues could not queue (only single teams or even individuals) then it would still be annoying but at least it would be equally annoying to everyone.
The queue should be a tool for easily finding a league if you want one or adding members to an existing league. It should not be used to force people onto leagues where thy may not be welcome.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually the LFG system does exactly that. If you don't want extras, then fill up the league before entering the queue.
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This MISUNDERSTANDING is complete rumor and is COMPLETELY FALSE.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Or... it was a private league.
It's my understanding that the 'locked teams' is supposed to prevent people being added from the queue, thereby allowing people to build private leagues, but the locked teams is a bit buggy. For example, sometimes there will be someone alone on a team, and the game will lock the team without that player doing anything. And then the player can't unlock the team, and the league leader can't move them ,since their team is locked. |
The team lock is to ONLY prevent the league leader from making changes to the team composition, nothing else.
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You said yourself in another thread that the developers have been silent on this. So don't start making your assumptions the rule. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The leader was being unreasonable. The reason why the game doesn't give you any means to make a "private" league is that the developers didn't want private leagues.
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| Actually the LFG system does exactly that. If you don't want extras, then fill up the league before entering the queue. |
You're argument is: There is no option to lock your league, therefore, the devs want all leagues to run at max capacity. Get over it.
So following your logic: There is no option to keep League Leaders from kicking add-ons, therefore, the devs are ok with people manually limiting their team size. Get over it.
So based on your stubborn, callous response to people's concerns, there's no basis to say the League Leader was in the wrong.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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The same reason you cannot lock the Hive. The trials are specifically designed for the turnstile. "Private leagues" are an invention of the playerbase that bypasses the turnstile by assembling teams outside of the turnstile. A league can't even start the trial "privately" - they *must* enter the turnstile to do so. The fact that a league cannot simply start the trial without joining the turnstile is an unequivocal sign the intent is for the trials to bring together everyone that wants to run the trial at that time.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The issue is, if a group of people can form a group (whether a single team or a league) that meets the minimum requirements for the trial why should they be forced to take additional people?
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BAF and Lambda are instanced Hives, not instanced task forces. You can be exclusive if you work at it, but the game's not currently going to help you do it. The person playing the game as intended is the player that joined the turnstile. The team leader who kicked them was frankly playing the game as a dick. I cannot imagine what was so important that the leader felt compelled to kick a single player just trying to enjoy the trials. One more person more or less is not going to change the dynamic of the trial at all if they were not being specifically abusive. I definitely would not stand for it on any trial run I was on.
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The team leader wasn't griefing. No one should be forced to team with someone they didn't invite. In fact the devs have gone to great lengths to give players the tools to screen their potential teammates. Or have you forgotten about the Notes feature and the ability to one star players you don't want to associate with?|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Report the league leader for griefing.
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So if a group of players want to form a private league for their SG members, Coalition members, private global channel members, Furry group, RP group, PvP group, whatever then that's none of our damn business and we have no right to tell them they can't.
Edit: I'm sorry to find that I am disagreeing with Arcanaville on this. I hope we are cool about having different opinions.
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They have no right to kick an innocent bystander.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The team leader wasn't griefing. No one should be forced to team with someone they didn't invite. In fact the devs have gone to great lengths to give players the tools to screen their potential teammates. Or have you forgotten about the Notes feature and the ability to one star players you don't want to associate with?
So if a group of players want to form a private league for their SG members, Coalition members, private global channel members, Furry group, RP group, PvP group, whatever then that's none of our damn business and we have no right to tell them they can't. |
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Ok, then the thing is why? What benefit does this provide to the player base? People who are happy to team with anyone can easily do so (either through the queue or by joining a preformed league advertising in a public channel). So what benefit is obtained by potentially adding them to teams that do not want them (as happened here)? The only result I can see is to upset people and cause complaints.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The same reason you cannot lock the Hive. The trials are specifically designed for the turnstile. "Private leagues" are an invention of the playerbase that bypasses the turnstile by assembling teams outside of the turnstile. A league can't even start the trial "privately" - they *must* enter the turnstile to do so. The fact that a league cannot simply start the trial without joining the turnstile is an unequivocal sign the intent is for the trials to bring together everyone that wants to run the trial at that time.
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You mentioned the Hive, I'll point out that the ability to form an instanced Hamidon Raid is a feature that has been requested multiple times in the past.
People like to be able to control who they team with, some due to elitism, others because they want to test something under controlled conditions (or run small groups to minimize lag), some people simply want a known group for RP reasons or because it's a group they are comfortable chatting with. Supporting these desires doesn't hurt the people who are fine with a random team and in fact helps them since if they joined such a team and got kicked they'd lose their place in the queue.
I'll also add that I find the "no private leagues unless it's a full size league" idea to be very irritating. If the devs don't want private leagues why allow them for 16/24 man leagues? If that is the direction they want then they should limit the maximum size group you can queue with so that all league sizes are equal.
I'm glad that there isn't a "lock league" option. If there was there would more people doing that (whether right or wrong) and then the random/casual people would "never" (yes exaggeration) get into an iTrial.
I'm sure there would be other people saying, "we can't do these trials because x group (min/maxers/farmers) are just locking their leagues!"
'Sides, if it is just one person that comes from the turnstile/LFG queue, then it shouldn't be an issue, there is "always 1" that doesn't click "Enter" even when the league is formed right? 
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Yes they do.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
They have no right to kick an innocent bystander.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Ok, then the thing is why? What benefit does this provide to the player base? People who are happy to team with anyone can easily do so (either through the queue....
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But how can they do a trial/join a league through the LFG when they get kicked from that league because they were brought in from the LFG queue?
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Some of you guys are harsh. o_0
We've been running a lot of smaller trial groups over on Liberty lately, and it's gotten pretty common to queue the group and find a stray or two added to the list. It's never been treated as a Bad Thing in any group I've run with, even when lag was a major issue, and I've never seen any of those players kicked or pushed off into some kind of "loser team" just because they got dropped into someone's pre-built league.
Did our leader expect to have them? Obviously not.
Will their participation possibly require some team-balance tinkering? Possibly.
Are they an "unknown quantity"? Definitely.
Could they potentially do something stupid enough to make us all curse their names? Of course.
But strays having the *potential* to cause problems and the real probability of them doing so seem pretty far apart. None of our add-ons have ever caused any problems or set off any disasters. Some have even turned out to be damned fine additions to the league.
So... why not give them a fair shake? It MIGHT come back to bite you, sure, but the odds are against it and it's not like you have to Friends List them just because they joined your BAF.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
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Actually it probably would have been better if they didn't allow premade leagues to enter the Queue at all. That way everyone would have to enter the queue and take what they get.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'll also add that I find the "no private leagues unless it's a full size league" idea to be very irritating. If the devs don't want private leagues why allow them for 16/24 man leagues? If that is the direction they want then they should limit the maximum size group you can queue with so that all league sizes are equal.
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Eh. The trouble there is that the queue starts groups with the minimum number of players, and it's a little tough to handle something like Lambda with a random group of 8 that may not include, say, a front-line character capable of holding old Mister Big Dog's attention.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually it probably would have been better if they didn't allow premade leagues to enter the Queue at all. That way everyone would have to enter the queue and take what they get.
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@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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That's kind of my point. Since there is no way for a league that is planning to kick adds to prevent adds from being added joining through the queue carries an inherent risk of being placed in a team that does not want you. Not because of anything you personally have done but because that team does not want anyone in addition to the people they queued with. Some such teams will tolerate you but it's also possible they'll just kick you at which point you've just wasted a bunch of time and lost your position in the queue.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
But how can they do a trial/join a league through the LFG when they get kicked from that league because they were brought in from the LFG queue?
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Allowing leagues to specify "no-adds" means that people who do use the queue are only added to leagues that are happy to have more warm bodies or leagues that are formed solely from individuals and small groups in the queue.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually it probably would have been better if they didn't allow premade leagues to enter the Queue at all. That way everyone would have to enter the queue and take what they get.
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Apparently the LFG tab's mechanics added me to a private run or something. I watched the movie after it started, called my pets, went inside, and then shortly found myself with the Cap loading screen.
Asking the leader why I was kicked, they said I was an add on his private 16-man BAF run.
Fair enough, but why was I added? It wasted my time inside, but worse, it wasted my 15 minute "first available" wait outside.
Worse, I have to get in another queue to run again -- with no guarantee I won't accidentally be placed on someone else's private run.
I don't know the solution, but it's a problem. Clearly you need to let people tag private runs and/or let the lead refuse people without costing the randomly-queued applicants their spot in the queue. It's irritating enough the "3 min estimated" waits are really 10-15 minutes. But to waste the bigger wait for no good reason is really bad.
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