I have run 10 trials today, I never want to run them again. Am I alone?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-04-10 16:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I think we need to have a clear definition of what a grind is, and then we need to decide whether a grind is, inherently, bad.
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Originally Posted by Venture
So you had already done months of grinding.
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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Ironically, Justice started with Pocket D, so everyone and their brother was in there. The zone actually has been unstable. Several groups who run the trials regularly have migrated to PD to the RWZ, because it was less crowded. (It helps a little that there are better stores there, as well.)
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
On Champion and the open Beta Server, I've noticed folks forming Leagues in Pocket D rather than RWZ. Since Pocket D is pretty much a dead zone otherwise, this means you're not competing with a mother ship raid or something while trying to get your league together.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Also finding the new trials a big turnoff. I have twentysomething of my 63 50s level shifted from the alpha slot, and I'm going to be so bored with the game if I just grind trials to get them all incarnated out. The trouble is, it's very difficult to get teams for anything other than the WST or the trials.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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It's not grinding if it is fun. |
Originally Posted by Venture
So you had already done months of grinding.
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I honestly mean that too, I had fun and along the way I got over 300 Shards from it.There were some days that I played a lot, but for the most part it was from a few hours at night that I got any time to play for the day.
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Just a quick note, bAss - you're turning into Golden Girl with the propensity of comments like this. My quote in your sig is in reference to the irony of your avatar. Please don't make it any more true than it has to be.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
It's not grinding if it is fun.
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And, I have to repeat the line that gets me stomped on the face every time I run it, but I feel I have to run it again:
I'm happy that you had fun running those trials. I have relatively first-hand knowledge of how much you enjoyed running the I19 Incarnate stuff, so I wouldn't dream of questioning you on this point. But you have to understand that not everyone likes these trials as much, so when people come off the position that "I've run a bunch of iTrials. Now what?" they aren't pulling that out of thin air.
What I'm saying is that when people really, really like something, it's much easier for them to ignore or justify its shortcomings. So for those who like repeating end-game raids, I imagine Incarnates are heaven. But sooner or later, we have to accept that this is not universally true or everybody, or indeed even most everybody. Participation in those trials cannot and should not be viewed as unanimous approval of their design for the same reasons posted in this threads - some people do them for the loot, not the love.
It is what it is NOW, but I want to think toward the future, and I hope the future brings us more types of entry points to the system. Eating your cake and having it too is kind of the selling points of games as escapism, after all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Okie. So Im running normal task forces and some of these trials.
There is something really odd happening on virtue. Really odd.
I actually was on a ITF, and watched two people mow the the content with judgement, and these are not AOE AT's.
People were upset with the lack of proliferation in the last issue. My question is do we need it anymore?
Technically the well powers almost seem as though they take away from others niches. Tanks can now, FF people, Heal and res people, AOE people, debuff people, summon pets and even hold enemies.
In fact all of the AT's out there are now technically able to do everything, although they can do their normal job the same, but they have everyone elses powers.
In comix when a toon gets that much power, usually they are killed off because technically the writers run out of things that they can throw at them.
Examples
Dark Pheonix (The main one that Spings to mind really)
Braniac (In his/her many incaranation)
Superman
Selene the Black Queen (Died a few times actually but she always comes back)
Morgan Le Fay
Zvesda Dynysta (Russian avengers enemy who when she used her powers threatened to destroy the universe all the time with each use)
Siena Blaze (Spelling might be off) who did the same thing as Zvesda Above...like she was a clone
There are tons more who have met the meat grinder of comix or depowered in some way because of this type of issue.
My concern is that when you offer so much power, that normal content becomes a happy sailboat ride with the occasional self inflicted suicide to allow for vengeance...so that the tank can res them with their new found rez power, it seems to cheapen part of the experience.
My concern is if CoX developers just put baby in the corner.
Really now, what can you throw at people? If one toon becomes godly enough does the development of the game need to change for them? Or does the game need to still focus on lowbies and newbies who don;t have that power.
Does all content need to shift?
I witnessed this in my ITF last evening.
LF2M. Need Tank and Judgment!
Need Judgment? Need it? Thats like yelling that you need heals when you have a sonic reser a bubbler and a TA on the same team. NEED it?
Im just saying, is this the path of the game now?
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The referral was to my own experience, of which is the only one I can be 100% sure of. I don't think I'm alone in how I enjoy the game though, as evidenced with the friends I play with regularly. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Just a quick note, bAss - you're turning into Golden Girl with the propensity of comments like this. My quote in your sig is in reference to the irony of your avatar. Please don't make it any more true than it has to be.
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It's easily fixed by assigning 1 aoe heavy character from each AV team to the ambush team.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't know that. I think I'll be changing how I do assignments on future BAFs.
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@True Metal
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Yes the game is reaching a saturation point where homogeneity is leading to a boring experience. Personally speaking, let me explain why CoX, before Incarnate, had the best balance of power/levels in the industry. The milestone points of most characters were between level 1 (Creating a uniqe AT combination, primary, and secondary, along with a unique costume), level 20 (eg Capes, important powers), probably level 32 (last power in primary), level 38 (last power in secondary), level 40 (epic pools), and level 50 (cap). Between a primary, and secondary, along with power pool variety this allowed a tank and a blaster to both pick up tough and weave. But they at least retain some unique power set combinations from their primary, and secondary. The epic pools do not vary much, but there is enough variety still.|
Originally Posted by Nyx
Okie. So Im running normal task forces and some of these trials.
There is something really odd happening on virtue. Really odd. I actually was on a ITF, and watched two people mow the the content with judgement, and these are not AOE AT's. People were upset with the lack of proliferation in the last issue. My question is do we need it anymore? Technically the well powers almost seem as though they take away from others niches. Tanks can now, FF people, Heal and res people, AOE people, debuff people, summon pets and even hold enemies. In fact all of the AT's out there are now technically able to do everything, although they can do their normal job the same, but they have everyone elses powers. In comix when a toon gets that much power, usually they are killed off because technically the writers run out of things that they can throw at them. Examples Dark Pheonix (The main one that Spings to mind really) Braniac (In his/her many incaranation) Superman Selene the Black Queen (Died a few times actually but she always comes back) Morgan Le Fay Zvesda Dynysta (Russian avengers enemy who when she used her powers threatened to destroy the universe all the time with each use) Siena Blaze (Spelling might be off) who did the same thing as Zvesda Above...like she was a clone There are tons more who have met the meat grinder of comix or depowered in some way because of this type of issue. My concern is that when you offer so much power, that normal content becomes a happy sailboat ride with the occasional self inflicted suicide to allow for vengeance...so that the tank can res them with their new found rez power, it seems to cheapen part of the experience. My concern is if CoX developers just put baby in the corner. Really now, what can you throw at people? If one toon becomes godly enough does the development of the game need to change for them? Or does the game need to still focus on lowbies and newbies who don;t have that power. Does all content need to shift? I witnessed this in my ITF last evening. LF2M. Need Tank and Judgment! Need Judgment? Need it? Thats like yelling that you need heals when you have a sonic reser a bubbler and a TA on the same team. NEED it? Im just saying, is this the path of the game now? |
For the number of levels (50) compared to the powers you are able to obtain, especially with inherent stamina, I think it is a reasonable number. The only homogeneity was really from the power pools, but since it is a greater variety of powers to choose from, it is not often you find people with the same X powers, from Y power pool.
Now, with Incarnate powers, it is not these incarnate powers that pose a problem. Its how the additional incarnate powers in the near future along with the current ones will cause a layer of redundancy with primary, secondary, epic pools, power pools.
Boring game.
The level shifts may not be the same as changing the level cap, but it still has the same effect by adding more new powers. It causes saturation, and redundancy that is not needed. Most games that keep raising their level caps every expansion end up reworking powers such that to reduce this redundancy, and to also keep the game interesting.
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if all the people who dont want to rush it, DONT........|
Originally Posted by Ironik
But the point you guys are missing is that people ARE rushing it. And then once they get their slots, they stop. Which makes sense, but it means fewer people are running the content. In a month, these trials will be infrequent affairs. So the feeling is one of "join now or be left behind." Since the Incarnate stuff is going to be the major focus of future content, getting left behind will be a real problem.
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then you all can do it later when ya want to surely?
plus the you have people levling to 50 with new toons that will want to play the trials as well as the 100's of people with multiple 50's.
im puzzled, if its boring why not mix it up a bit, level a new toon or a vanilla tf or tip mission or the new tf's or try a Master of tf? after all you dont eat the same type of food day in, day out so why play the game that way?
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Now that's a really bad spin on things. Anyone can level to 40 without help. Not everyone can get their I20 Incarnate slots without constant teaming. As others have already said, there's a real concern that the volume of readily available players required for I20 trials going on currently will dry up in a month or two once most folks who want those slots have them. |
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
For those that don't: how long does it take you on average to earn a new power once you get into the 40s? I am guessing that it takes them more than a week. If those same people just run the trials a couple of times over the course of days or weeks, use threads to craft the boost they want, and then use all other Astral Merits and threads to buy XP, then they will get a new incarnate power in about the same time as it takes to gain a power in the 40s.
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I'm sure the Devs will remedy this situation but not anytime soon. Kinda surprised they've said very little next to nothing on this "Rush to Grind" anxiety after a week of concerns being raised through multiple threads. I miss the days when the original Dev team was more forthcoming with info and conversations. But I digress.
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A grind is any mission or system that requires the player to repeat the same instance of content in order to progress to a higher level of virtual existence. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
I think we need to have a clear definition of what a grind is, and then we need to decide whether a grind is, inherently, bad.
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A grind is inherently bad if/when it stops being fun.
Having grinded many an ITF, I can say I never noticed because ITF is fun. It's dynamic content that switches up team mechanics, level of solo interaction, and mission map visuals over the course of several missions.
The new I20 trials... you pretty much get the same result every time and truth be told, there are many opportunities to stand still and wait or click "follow" on someone else and let them do the hard work for you. I've done it twice now on Lambda and it worked like a charm. The trials just don't create opportunities for EVERYONE to feel meaningful and personally involved in the content. Again, its much like the "follow the leader" Hamidon content that Castle, BABs and other pushed back on years ago.
Sadly, the new trials are what they are. Milk it while you can or just ignore it. I'm 99.9% convinced these powers are nice to have but there's nothing in-game right now that requires them (especially if you already have the Alpha Slot pumped to Tier 4).
They'll probably datamine that they have succeeded, then wonder why people just quit running it nearly as often (as a matter of fact, I'm playing a brand new character and not bothering with anything Incarnate.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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Not to mention that this time scale is very skewed from what I'm seeing. To get a new power in the 40s takes "a week" if you're doing it alone. Once you join a team, things drop significantly, to the point where I can earn "a power" over the span of one 90-minute ITF unless the team is anal about stealthing every damn mission.
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Originally Posted by Rubberlad
Now that's a really bad spin on things. Anyone can level to 40 without help.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I am glad I am not the only person seeing this.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Yes the game is reaching a saturation point where homogeneity is leading to a boring experience. Personally speaking, let me explain why CoX, before Incarnate, had the best balance of power/levels in the industry. The milestone points of most characters were between level 1 (Creating a uniqe AT combination, primary, and secondary, along with a unique costume), level 20 (eg Capes, important powers), probably level 32 (last power in primary), level 38 (last power in secondary), level 40 (epic pools), and level 50 (cap). Between a primary, and secondary, along with power pool variety this allowed a tank and a blaster to both pick up tough and weave. But they at least retain some unique power set combinations from their primary, and secondary. The epic pools do not vary much, but there is enough variety still.
For the number of levels (50) compared to the powers you are able to obtain, especially with inherent stamina, I think it is a reasonable number. The only homogeneity was really from the power pools, but since it is a greater variety of powers to choose from, it is not often you find people with the same X powers, from Y power pool. Now, with Incarnate powers, it is not these incarnate powers that pose a problem. Its how the additional incarnate powers in the near future along with the current ones will cause a layer of redundancy with primary, secondary, epic pools, power pools. Boring game. The level shifts may not be the same as changing the level cap, but it still has the same effect by adding more new powers. It causes saturation, and redundancy that is not needed. Most games that keep raising their level caps every expansion end up reworking powers such that to reduce this redundancy, and to also keep the game interesting. |
Sure when my controller got her Psi epic pool I noticed to my amazement that I found her even more fun to play because I had some fun new flare with attacks. Psionic Tornado (Which normally I am not a fan of for some reason) under containment is really fun for me.
My concern is what you voiced, which is that when you are an AT driven game, that build it's mark on the diverse role of each AT, you remove what you created by making these AT's redundant.
On the good side it fixes the concerns of trying to find a balanced team
On the bad side it removes the need to find a balanced team. Which sounds like a half butted abswer that contradicts it's self, but if you have 8 judgement wielding, debuffing, pet calling, healing ressing tanks in a team, there really is no need for anything further.
Chewing through content now is a breeze, even if you are running a team of 36's becoming 50's because the tank is 50 and said tank has all the bells and whistles. It just plows through things.
Now Im not hating on tanks with super powers. Im using them as an example only because tanks have the HP, the defenses and survivability that others dont have. I use them as the example because when a tank steam rolls content, using mass AOE, Shield, Rezes, Heals and debuffs, you really don't need much else, because they being hearty now function beyond the scope of say a blaster with the same style of powers with all the bells and whistles from the incarnate system.
Sure my controller can hold crowds of enemies and reduce mob impact, but technically I don't even need to worry about that anymore.
It used to be that during the ITF, that when I got to the super computer the wisest action I could take was eating a purple, toggling my uber defenses and resistances and then hitting Force Bubble so people could take down the computer. Now said tactic gets little praise because someone is mad because the tank/brute...whatever cant Judgement nuke all the robots.
So the content imediately has changed and tactics have changed from what unique At's brought to the table, in order for shiny new Incarnate powers, which were earned, and are neat to replace what other folks once brought to the team.
Sorry for being long winded, but I'm giving what I think is a fair statement through observation.
But I want to make it clear that I am not opposed to the new content at all, just how it could potentially result in the game we loved for it's level of uniqueness, due to the AT niches, turning into a level of "We dont need this AT anymore"
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Here is what is not being realized: People play with whoever they can get on the team. The so called "balanced team" is only desired by team leaders that are too extreme, and they get picked on by everyone else. | On the bad side it removes the need to find a balanced team. Which sounds like a half butted abswer that contradicts it's self, but if you have 8 judgement wielding, debuffing, pet calling, healing ressing tanks in a team, there really is no need for anything further |
So far (and I am betting never) these powers mean nothing to teams, other than they bring more to the table. People are still going to fill teams with whoever then can get to join. I said the same thing in the league threads in beta. On live my predictions have been true, no one cares.
The truth is now we are FINALLY super heroes. We are going from the second and third string characters that the game was originally designed to make us, to the front line heroes we should have been all along.
Or maybe because I only play scrappers and brutes I am just used to already being a jack of all trades, and this is just nothing new to me.
Seriously though, the character homogeneity thing is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen on these boards. It was bad when Epics were introduced, and it is even worse now.
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I agree with the rest of your post in general, but this particular argument I want to comment on, because it kind of bugs me when I see it. I don't discount that that's what the intention behind the Incarnate system was, but I'm not sure if 24-man raids are the right way to make one feel any less like a second-stringer. Yes, we take on the Praetorians (who I'm told are supposed to be a lot more awesome than they actually are), but we're still second-stringers to them, because it takes a dozen of us to take on one of them.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
The truth is now we are FINALLY super heroes. We are going from the second and third string characters that the game was originally designed to make us, to the front line heroes we should have been all along.
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To my eyes, what made me feel like a main character far more than this was the Mender Ramiel arc and, hell, even the revamped Maria Jenkins arc. In those arcs, it's usually the bad guys who are ganging up to defeat me, personally, rather than me ganging up on single ones of them.
Yeah, I know it's standard MMO procedure, but that in itself is making me lose my taste for Trials and TFs right quick. Even the Admiral Stutter TF is losing its lustre now, and I actually like that one. The cheapness that is the two Durays is just too annoying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think it's the worst argument. Mimicing the tricks of every other AT, leaves many AT's feeling...lack lustre now. At least with the Epic pools they differ amonsgt the AT's as to keep them still in a unique flow.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
The truth is now we are FINALLY super heroes. We are going from the second and third string characters that the game was originally designed to make us, to the front line heroes we should have been all along.
Or maybe because I only play scrappers and brutes I am just used to already being a jack of all trades, and this is just nothing new to me. Seriously though, the character homogeneity thing is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen on these boards. It was bad when Epics were introduced, and it is even worse now. |
This particular apsect of the game is accross the board. And while yes, you will be powerfull and feel powerfull, I never really did feel all that second string with my characters in the first place.
We now just have the issue of "One toon can do it all" which loses the unique aspects of the games design when coming up with AT's.
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This is what actually made me make the statement Sam. I am running it now with my scrapper to get the AVs for the badge credit. I actually feel super when I run into a spawn set for 8 players with my scrapper, and with one attack (t4 Ion Judgment) they are all dead, or held in a cage. In the past only the signature characters (or a nuke power) could do that, and nukers would crash afterward. Note: Those with Nukes and t4 Judgement can do BOTH. | revamped Maria Jenkins arc |
I look at the trail AVs (not TF ones unless set to +4) as those Characters who have tapped into a greater power for a short time. Much like The infinity Guantlet, hate to use a Marvel reference, but can't think of a DC one. I say a short time because when I see think in missions I can solo them.
So I still feel first string. I am first string enough that the world wants me to join with other first string heroes to fight these creatures who have cheated. The other first stringers are scared to go, because Posi is still in SC, and Statesman is still planted on his ship.
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| We now just have the issue of "One toon can do it all" which loses the unique aspects of the games design when coming up with AT's. |
Except the first 50+ levels the ATs still stand on their uniqueness. My scrapper still can't fire off 2 nuked in a row (Judgment + Nuke) a blaster can. Also those that are getting t4s will really be the top tier of players who had already found ways around the need for other ATs any way. I am unique in my costume, back story, power customization, and power selection. That is enough for me, if I want the spot light, I earn it. I don't need it programed into the game. I felt the same way before i20, most scrappers do though. There are whole threads dedicated to Pylon soloing, and the RWZ challenge.
I don't want to down play anyone's opinion, I respect perspective. I want people to have be able to see multiple perspectives though. I know that may be a lot to ask on the internet though.
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I more meant the fact that the arc takes you through multiple missions where you take down two Praetorian bigshots per mission, and all of them end in desperate NPC chat, like "Defeating me solves nothing!" Yeah, but I still kicked your fat ***, Mr. Top Dog!|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
This is what actually made me make the statement Sam. I am running it now with my scrapper to get the AVs for the badge credit. I actually feel super when I run into a spawn set for 8 players with my scrapper, and with one attack (t4 Ion Judgment) they are all dead, or held in a cage. In the past only the signature characters (or a nuke power) could do that, and nukers would crash afterward. Note: Those with Nukes and t4 Judgement can do BOTH.
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You have a point that returning to the old story arcs with Incarnate powers does make for an air of superiority, and it's one I do enjoy. However, it also kind of feels like cheating, since that is, after all, "outlevelled" content. I mean, I'm not opposed to running it, but it's content we were dominating even before.
However, your point stands - taking your gains from the Trials into more common story arcs IS a massive ego boost. I just wish there were new ones within the context of the Incarnate system to run, rather than going back to what's starting to resemble "All that crap's grey to me." territory.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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IMO BAF got boring after the 2 first runs. Lambda can be fun because of the speed but it gets annoying when people are not able to read .
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Amen! This is what I intended to say...|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Good points.
And people are STILL talking about blindly going ONLY Trials or NEVER trials. Mix things up people! Do trials when the opportunity presents itself, but not overboard. Do shard runs likewise. Neither burns you out then, and neither makes you feel abused. |
I do old tf's still... will always do the Weekly tf with my SG. And occassionally join a trial.
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General reply: Well, my first hero got Ion Judgement last night, and I will agree that stuff like this makes you want to play that character a lot, and leads me to want to continue earning this iXP. That is truly a "super" power, not to mention I badly want the MK Victoria pet [And unlike most, I dont give a damn if the concept fits my character or not].
We advance well enough with the iXP I think, but still distressed over the lack of shards, which I still badly need in order to continue my Alpha progression. Shards drop at an incredily slow rate for me, I find it frustrating. And now we can get shards OR iXP, but not both. Sucks.
The shortness of the trials is a plus.
But yeah, Ion Judgement is a hoot 
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