Why are people calling these Raids
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-04-07 01:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Which is the whole point. When people complain how long it takes to get this stuff, I just shake my head. You aren't ever supposed to be finished. This system is so awesome because you can be making progress all the time. Even if you have a preferred power in each slot, you can get the others and there's reasons for doing so. Especially with Interface and Destiny.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
10 is not the upper limit for the slots, and new trees can be aded to the existing slots, like Lore, for example - the endgame system is open-ended, and doesn't have a finishing point.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Similarly, these raids/trials/"omnipresent"ing-but-still-currently-fun-failfests for me play quite differently than most the rest of the game. One thing I will praise the devs for here is not being too precious with their 7 year old game and risking breaking it a little to continue exploring what play inside this particular MMO gamespace can feel like.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
It's not unheard of for devs to change their mind. Perhaps their datamining showed reasonable evidence to support a raid or grind style end game. So far, they were right.
Now if they could just get the bugs worked out so I stopped getting booted from raids... |
I realize that in some ways, according to many others who are much more avid MMO players and have experienced a wider range of competing titles, Paragon is following some trends in MMO play design and innovations that came after initial release of CoX. But it feels like they are now poised to push that envelop a little more to see what works and what doesn't with subsequent trial/raid/thingies.
So as a non-farmer traditionally, I am glad they seem to have changed their mind and are exploring more complex and varied strategical challenges with these trials. For the longest time, challenge in any MMO, including this one in particular meant big-bag-o-hitpoints. Greater challenge then meant big-bag-o-hitpoints with stupid amounts of regen and resist. Short of getting a full blown physics engine in game that would allow new sorts of environmental challenges, this seems about the best they can do to explore and hopefully land on some new classics in terms of game design.
And if/when there ever is a CoX 2, hopefully all this will be taken into mind when starting fresh and designing that fourth or fifth generation MMO.
Four trials, not two. With two more in progress, that have already been shown to the gaming industry press. Rome wasn't built in a day.
It is absolutely true that the players who've stuck with CoH after all these years are obviously the people who didn't give a rat's raw hindquarters whether or not there was end-game content. (Or at least, most of us don't.) But the game's population is way, way down; how many of the people quit, quit because they didn't like being told, once they hit 50, "okay, that character is done, now roll another one"?
The entire MMO industry has only come up with three "end games" to keep people busy between content releases: alt-itis, PvP, and gear-grind raids. CoH does alt-itis better than any other MMO in history, bar none, nobody even comes close. CoH does PvP worse than any other MMO in history, bar none, nobody even comes close. Until i19, CoH didn't even pretend to have gear-grind raids; now it does. Call it progress, call it a step backwards; for some people, "an excuse to keep playing the same character once I hit the level cap" is a check-off item, a minimum requirement.
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Originally Posted by Battler
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You can fail and still get rewarded and the marvelous endgame here involves running just TWO Trials over and over and over and over.... ... |
Have you ever done a mission and were beating up on mobs (Getting xp/etc) and then failed the mission (due to whatever reason, timed, actually failing it, etc...)?
You still kept the xp that you got from the mobs right? Or does your character give the xp back when you fail somehow?
Edit: and as others have said, there are more trials coming (at least 2 that we know of).
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So far I've seen none of that. Plenty of 'What the hell kind of cheat are the Praetorians using?', such as ludicrously high accuracy and auto-hit, long range bombardments, but that's because nobody likes being utterly neutered without any decent excuse other than 'But it's a challenge!'|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The game is still here.
Therefore: The people who predicted that Issue X or Feature Y would be the death of the game in the past have been completely wrong. And that simple fact is not stopping anyone from crying doom now. So far, it has just been "I hate this new thing". But that's how all the "This will kill the game" doomcrying started before too. I suppose there is a slight possibility that they may be proven right this time, but the chance is pretty minute. I give it about a week before the first "This is killing the game" thread appears, maybe (probably) less than that. |
'I hate X!'=!'Dooooooom!'
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Better example;|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Have you ever done a mission and were beating up on mobs (Getting xp/etc) and then failed the mission (due to whatever reason, timed, actually failing it, etc...)?
You still kept the xp that you got from the mobs right? Or does your character give the xp back when you fail somehow? |
You run an ITF. Even if you fail, you keep the exp and the drops, same as here.
But if you fail you don't get the merit reward.
Here, not only do you get the merit reward even for failing (IXP and components) but you are expected to fail multiple times, like it's a good thing.
Thats the disconnect.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I am still somewhat new to the game so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that prior to issue 19 there was no endgame to speak of. A lot of people are complaining that two consecutive issues (and quite likely the two after these) are focusing entirely on end game. To me it seems that after 6 or so years of nada, it was due a few issues. The people who wanted endgame waited 18 issues for their turn. I say let them have a few, the game the rest of us love is still here, and still expanding.
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I've been here since issue 4, and I don't think you're wrong.
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Originally Posted by Irish Fury
I am still somewhat new to the game so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that prior to issue 19 there was no endgame to speak of. A lot of people are complaining that two consecutive issues (and quite likely the two after these) are focusing entirely on end game. To me it seems that after 6 or so years of nada, it was due a few issues. The people who wanted endgame waited 18 issues for their turn. I say let them have a few, the game the rest of us love is still here, and still expanding.
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It is not the fact that there is some endgame now in the game that is the problem Irish, it is how it has been implimented that is the problem.|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
I am still somewhat new to the game so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that prior to issue 19 there was no endgame to speak of. A lot of people are complaining that two consecutive issues (and quite likely the two after these) are focusing entirely on end game. To me it seems that after 6 or so years of nada, it was due a few issues. The people who wanted endgame waited 18 issues for their turn. I say let them have a few, the game the rest of us love is still here, and still expanding.
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I wholeheartedly loved the fact that they were doing the Incarnate system. The execution of it is the problem.
Having an endgame is not the problem.....it is the form it now take that is.
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Originally Posted by Irish Fury
I am still somewhat new to the game so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that prior to issue 19 there was no endgame to speak of. A lot of people are complaining that two consecutive issues (and quite likely the two after these) are focusing entirely on end game. To me it seems that after 6 or so years of nada, it was due a few issues. The people who wanted endgame waited 18 issues for their turn. I say let them have a few, the game the rest of us love is still here, and still expanding.
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Hey there newbie! Your logic and fair-minded level-headedness and completely accurate assessment of the situation have no place here!
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Better example;
You run an ITF. Even if you fail, you keep the exp and the drops, same as here. But if you fail you don't get the merit reward. Here, not only do you get the merit reward even for failing (IXP and components) but you are expected to fail multiple times, like it's a good thing. Thats the disconnect. |
It's not a "good thing" when you fail; it's good when you learned why you failed.
I'm sure (and know somewhat) when Hamidon was first introduced tons of char. toons failed/died....but once they had a strategy, bam, now Hamidon is "easy".
Learning from your (not you specifically) mistakes is the key.
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You obviously didn't read all of the posts, getting the incidentals is not the problem, it never has been. Inf and enhancements along with insps have dropped since ....well almost forever, so killing the mobs is not the problem and getting the individual rewards. It is getting part of a reward, that by its definition, can contribute to getting you the big reward.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Have you ever done a mission and were beating up on mobs (Getting xp/etc) and then failed the mission (due to whatever reason, timed, actually failing it, etc...)?
You still kept the xp that you got from the mobs right? Or does your character give the xp back when you fail somehow? Edit: and as others have said, there are more trials coming (at least 2 that we know of). |
Put it this way...in theory, you can actually fail every single Incarnate Trial in the game, and still fill it up as you go with failures.
How Heroic is that.
Now please understand that there is a big differnace between the xp , insps etc that drop and Merits, which you gain on a successful run of a TF or Trial. Now you don't have to be successful to win in this game.
That is just silly, a successful hero apprehends the villains, a successful villain robs the bank, thos in between do itr for themselves or whatever motivates them. They only get the rewards for been successful.
Well, Paragon have just now said...You don't have to be successful to succed with us anymore...way to go...how.....well, I think you should by now understand where I am coming from.
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Fair enough, nothing is going to please everyone. I find the new trials to be fun and challenging, but I do not have the audacity to assume everyone likes the same things I do. The thing I try to express to folks who are disapointed in the end game thus far is that it is still in its infancy, and it will evolve and expand just as the game before it has over the years. I am a very happy customer, but I always want more options, just like anyone else.
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Originally Posted by Battler
It is not the fact that there is some endgame now in the game that is the problem Irish, it is how it has been implimented that is the problem.
I wholeheartedly loved the fact that they were doing the Incarnate system. The execution of it is the problem. Having an endgame is not the problem.....it is the form it now take that is. |
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And all TFs and Trials have followed this pattern....Till issue 20 |
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
It's not a "good thing" when you fail; it's good when you learned why you failed.
I'm sure (and know somewhat) when Hamidon was first introduced tons of char. toons failed/died....but once they had a strategy, bam, now Hamidon is "easy". Learning from your (not you specifically) mistakes is the key. |
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This. I love playing my 50s. I like the implementation of the Alpha slot. Not too thrilled about the WST being the only reasonable way to get Notices, but still, I like the rest of it. These raids though....|
Originally Posted by Battler
I wholeheartedly loved the fact that they were doing the Incarnate system. The execution of it is the problem.
Having an endgame is not the problem.....it is the form it now take that is. |
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Originally Posted by Battler
Put it this way...in theory, you can actually fail every single Incarnate Trial in the game, and still fill it up as you go with failures.
<snip> Well, Paragon have just now said...You don't have to be successful to succed with us anymore...way to go...how.....well, I think you should by now understand where I am coming from. |
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I didn't read anything here. Because I wanted to give my pure oppinion.
People are calling it a raid, and even though it has nothing to do with a PVP element or against other players of a different alignment/guild/faction etc, it takes into considderation larger formation battles that have been popular...and unpopular in other games.
It deal with mass numbers and as a result has the feel of something larger than the normal 8 man team and the enemies are amped up as to create a challenge on a higher level.
It feels like a raid because it lags like a raid.
It feels like a raid because it's chaos like many raids.
It feels like a raid because the rewards are beyond the norm.
Our raids...or TF's are at least story driven, which makes them stick with the feel of CoX...when you get a cut scene or a plot, making it Comic-Esque, but once those elements are finished, it's about using the amount of people you have to manage the mission objectives.
Now Ill read the rest to see how others think of it.
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Originally Posted by Battler
And all TFs and Trials have followed this pattern....Till issue 20
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You expect people to know these trials as well as all the previous TFs and trials after only 2 days?
People will learn the trials just as well as they learned everything we now consider to be easy, but it's going to take longer than 2 days for that to happen.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Battler
Depressing really what people will be happy with these days. |
Personally I could care less if you stay or leave but disrespecting others opinions of the content because you don't like it is ridiculous. State your opinion, then argue it or not.
Digressing into whiny platitudes just invalidates any decent points you might have had.
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I think you're the one with the comprehension problem. The entire endgame system is far from complete. So yes, right now there are these two trials. That's not the entirety of the end game content.|
Originally Posted by Battler
If you have a comprehension problem, then that's not my fault, but if you can't work out I have no problems with end games in any game. The way it has been implimented in this game just beggers belief.
You can fail and still get rewarded and the marvelous endgame here involves running just TWO Trials over and over and over and over.... |
And as to the "you can fail and still get rewarded" part, that was a game design decision that I believe is much welcomed by the vast majority of the players.
What's strange to me is that you appear to have liked CoH prior to the Incarnate content. Why not keep playing that game? When you hit 50, just roll an alt. There's more low level content than ever, and as I noted in another thread, there's going to be a ton more in i21. How do I know? Ponder this: there is a wide spectrum of dev jobs. This issue has been a lot of programming work. But all the artists, designers and writers who do new missions, tilesets, powers, and costumes have to be working on something all this time, and it sure as hell wasn't i20 (or at least, not much). They've been hard at work on i21 for weeks, if not months. I would expect i21 to include a new Incarnate Trial or two but also a whole lot of non-Incarnate stuff.
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More to the point, if you find ITF too tough, you can go off and do other things to build up your character's power and then come back and try again. With the trials, there's really no alternative -- if you can't hack it, you just have to repeatedly beat your head against the wall until you collect enough "consolation prizes" to boost yourself up. Obviously, some people don't mind that, but for others it's extremely annoying, if not downright depressing (and the usual suggested alternative: "Just find an uber team and leech off of them" isn't exactly thrilling either). It's like throwing lvl 1 characters into Peregrine Island and expecting them to street-sweep their way to 50.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Here, not only do you get the merit reward even for failing (IXP and components) but you are expected to fail multiple times, like it's a good thing.
Thats the disconnect. |
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No, You can gather shards. This is a lot of work for the latter pieces, but it's piss-easy to get a common.
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Originally Posted by JKCarrier
More to the point, if you find ITF too tough, you can go off and do other things to build up your character's power and then come back and try again. With the trials, there's really no alternative -- if you can't hack it, you just have to repeatedly beat your head against the wall until you collect enough "consolation prizes" to boost yourself up. Obviously, some people don't mind that, but for others it's extremely annoying, if not downright depressing (and the usual suggested alternative: "Just find an uber team and leech off of them" isn't exactly thrilling either). It's like throwing lvl 1 characters into Peregrine Island and expecting them to street-sweep their way to 50.
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Nice summary, well said.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
The entire MMO industry has only come up with three "end games" to keep people busy between content releases: alt-itis, PvP, and gear-grind raids. CoH does alt-itis better than any other MMO in history, bar none, nobody even comes close. CoH does PvP worse than any other MMO in history, bar none, nobody even comes close. Until i19, CoH didn't even pretend to have gear-grind raids; now it does. Call it progress, call it a step backwards; for some people, "an excuse to keep playing the same character once I hit the level cap" is a check-off item, a minimum requirement.
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The TF and SF are quite different, and include a lot of maps and other features. They are hardly thrown in. We've seen issues with less content than those two before. |
Originally Posted by Battler
Well I assume you haven't been fed yet, can you not work out that this issue is called Incarnates...who have 2 trials to ammuse themselves on. I know about the token TF/SF thrown in to.....
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How about you just ignore the incarnate trials and accept that two good TF/SFs were added to the game?
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| If you have a comprehension problem, then that's not my fault, but if you can't work out I have no problems with end games in any game. The way it has been implimented in this game just beggers belief. |
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| You can fail and still get rewarded and the marvelous endgame here involves running just TWO Trials over and over and over and over.... |
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| Well if you are very happy with that then go knock yourself out, have fun with it. Go grind it 5 times a night till your eyes bleed and be happy. |
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| I for one am not happy with this. They have made themselves a paradox of grining and loosing but still getting rewards. |
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It's not even learning the tactics that is the problem, people know them. It is the way you are all...Alpha Slotted and IO'd to the hilt with billions of inf spent or SO's only....reduced by gimmicls to been wiped and given token rewards till you get slotted with these new powers....that ONLY work on these two grindfests to actually complete it properly. |
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| You don't have to learn the tactics...go to the forums, read them, print them out, have them next to you as you fight. Won't help you though till you get all those new powers and then you stand a chance on a random LFG tool. |
The trials are not that hard. While there are bugs, a team with a modicum of organization, and some clue about what has to be done will succeed. The only reason you would need to start piling up the incarnate powers is if you want to do the trials with undersized teams. Full teams doing either trial are reasonably easy.
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One TF for everyone and Two limited Grindfests, nice really for the time they had I suppose but not progression raiding where they could of had the Alpha slot beginner slotted and SO's as the entrance benchmark and gone from there with proper tactics and a few differant ways you could complete it, but no, they went for the happy endgame most of you seem ok with. Depressing really what people will be happy with these days. |
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