Bored with the whole Praetoria schtick
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-03-22 06:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is my position as well. |
Originally Posted by Casual_Player
Regardless of the merit of Praetoria, the intense focus on it is going to bore people.
There is no single enemy group that's worthy of more than a year's worth of developmental effort. Period. For example: Issue 3 was awesome. It gave us the Council, Striga Island, and a great couple of TFs. Can you imagine how the forums would have howled if the next few issues were: Issue 4: The Council Strikes Back: We Forgot A Task Force! Issue 5: Still More Council: Feel The Excitement As You Sabotage Their Production Lines! Issue 6: Yet Again, More Council: You Missed Those Guys Over There! Issue 7: Council vs Fifth Column: You Thought We Were Out Of Council, Didn't You? Yet this is exactly what we're getting now. Just substitute in 'Praetorians' for Council and Issue 18-22 for Issues 3-7. So, bored of Praetoria? No, not yet. But in another couple of months I expect to be, and there is no end to the Praetorian content in sight. |
I just don't see the value of dragging out the Praetoria storyline as you have to make convoluted connections to justify its length which only alienates people even more.
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If you looked at exactly who I was quoting you would see why I said that.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Did anyone say you weren't discerning or don't care? Cause it seems to me the complaint was that there is no way to tell how many people are happy vs how many people don't care. In other words, datamining can't tell the difference between you and xXxshardfarmerxXx.
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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How many people agree with an argument does not lend it validity. I'm agreeing with Jophiel here. I don't care how many people agree or disagree. Even worse than that, in this case there's no right answer. "Am I bored....?" is a pointless question. I just wish that those who aren't bored would stop dismissing the arguement as a minority, because that doesn't make them any less bored if it's true (and it might not be true, and I do with Golden Girl would stop doing this); I wish that those who are bored would stop attacking the taste and discerning eye of those who do (something Eva and Venture repeatedly do; they think that the current set on content is bad/horrible and that the devs are only developing it because no one reads content anymore and blah blah blah blah blah. I read the freaking content and while it has some problems [plot holes, some lore-consistency problems] I like it an recognize it for what it does well).|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Is this the new go-to to avoid needing a decent argument?
Because, judging from this thread, the "small vocal minority on the forums" with criticisms about Praetoria isn't much different than the "small vocal minority on the forums" defending it. Funny how the pro- group is so many times larger and yet only a handful have managed to find their voice. |
And I really wish that everyone would stop making blanket statements that they can't support (examples:GG - the complainers are a minority; Venture - everyone who thinks about signature characters think X about them, etc. there are other examples in this thread alone)
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I can think of a good reason to drag it out. The devs have never told a multi issue long running arc, which by the way, I find interesting because I like long running stories that end. If the idea of the Incarnate system was that the Well goes mad and we slowly take power from it as we defeat it's champion then they're doing a very good job of it. Writing wise I LOVE the urgency of Apex, and I love the fact that Tin Mage essentially makes you a returning Omega Team.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
This is my position as well.
I just don't see the value of dragging out the Praetoria storyline as you have to make convoluted connections to justify its length which only alienates people even more. |
I love the fact that the incarnate trials make you feel like you're in a war, something I really only felt during ITF, or maybe LGTF (although the LGTF really needs to make the story more explicit for the person who's not the leader of the team - to a lesser extent ITF too).
And none of this - none of it - precludes them from adding more incarnate stuff when this is done. And in fact Prometheus essentially tells us they're going to. And, mechanically, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If the new Hami/Antimatter trial unlock the remaining 4 on the incarnate track, then all we'll have left to unlock is the Omega slot, which probably means a beat down of Cole to unlock. I'm okay with that. I want them to end it, and I like occasionally having a long running storyline. As long as they actually end that, I can deal with them thowing more Praetorians at me (especially since it's a third side of the game and needs to be developed more...even if they were never going to add more after the 1 - 20 stuff - Praetoria was NOT well developed before i18)
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
I was going to say something, but I'll just sign on to Blue Mourning's last two replies. Well said.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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This is an interesting point, and I agree with it in theory. In practice, however, I'm not so sure. The function of a multi-issue long-running story arc should be to develop that story over time, and go into more detail with that story. The situation in i20 as it's presented thusfar is pretty much still the same situation it was in i19. The i18 to i19 build up wasn't bad. It was "we're going to fight Praetorians" leading into "we're fighting Praetorians". But with i20, it's more of a "yep, still fighting 'em". In comparison, i10 got us the same level of story content, if not moreso, in just that single issue. We seem to be getting all the negatives of drawing out this story, and none of the benefits.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
I can think of a good reason to drag it out. The devs have never told a multi issue long running arc, which by the way, I find interesting because I like long running stories that end.
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i10 was almost wholly dependent on the lore existing that we never played through though. It should also be pointed out that i10 brought the whole of the Vanguard storylines with it too, and only one mechanic/system to implement. What do we really have against Praetorians? So far we have/will have Apex and TM, Lambda/BAF, AntiMatter/Hami, whatever unlocks the Omega slot, and Admiral Sutter. In addition to that we have an entire new system, with several new mechanics.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
This is an interesting point, and I agree with it in theory. In practice, however, I'm not so sure. The function of a multi-issue long-running story arc should be to develop that story over time, and go into more detail with that story. The situation in i20 as it's presented thusfar is pretty much still the same situation it was in i19. The i18 to i19 build up wasn't bad. It was "we're going to fight Praetorians" leading into "we're fighting Praetorians". But with i20, it's more of a "yep, still fighting 'em". In comparison, i10 got us the same level of story content, if not moreso, in just that single issue. We seem to be getting all the negatives of drawing out this story, and none of the benefits.
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How does that stack up? That's 8 story arcs. In the Rikti storyline we had the 5 Vanguard arcs, LGTF, the Mothership Raid, and Vanguard Merits. And all of that ended when we repelled the second invasion. We've already repelled the invasion in Apex and Tin Mage - or at least delayed it. We're now beyond what was accomplished in i10 with respect to the Rikti, because we never went to Rikti Earth to neuter their war machine.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Also Maria Jenkins (the arc and all the one-offs) and the Anti-Matter Arc from wos'ername.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
What do we really have against Praetorians? So far we have/will have Apex and TM, Lambda/BAF, AntiMatter/Hami, whatever unlocks the Omega slot, and Admiral Sutter. In addition to that we have an entire new system, with several new mechanics.
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Personally I wish it didn't work that way. But I suspect I know why it does.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
This last choice just renders everything you did in Praetoria meaningless and shallow. No matter how horrible you were, all is forgiven the moment you step through that portal.
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In an MMO...there really aren't any 'do overs'. You can't save your game and go back and do something different. A lot of people pay almost no attention to the mission text and story. I think it would be a rather big downer for some of them to find that they are locked into a side(until doing 10 random missions) that they may not have actually wanted to go to.
The dumbness of the average human tends to get the most consideration.
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| How is it "whining" that you can't be heroic? Praetoria presents you with Villainous options, Rogue options, and Vigilante options, the one thing it lacks is a heroic option, and pointing that out isn't whining. |
Like I said, you may not agree that this should be the case, but not being able to play the shining hero may have been a purposeful intention of the Praetoria content.
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| Did anyone say you weren't discerning or don't care? Cause it seems to me the complaint was that there is no way to tell how many people are happy vs how many people don't care. In other words, datamining can't tell the difference between you and xXxshardfarmerxXx. |
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The only dev response so far to the handful of "we h8 pr3t0ri4z" types has been to announce that the next 2 Trials are against Anti-Matter and the Preetorian Hamidon - and these are the same devs who pulled a major feature from GR to redesign it to match player feedback - so it's not that they don't lsiten |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Is this the new go-to to avoid needing a decent argument?
Because, judging from this thread, the "small vocal minority on the forums" with criticisms about Praetoria isn't much different than the "small vocal minority on the forums" defending it. Funny how the pro- group is so many times larger and yet only a handful have managed to find their voice. |
Also, after those 2 Trials, there is a lot more Praetorian content to come
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I hope its Loyalist content (it really doesn't make sense that die-hard Loyalist characters are suddenly fighting Praetorians) and Incarnate solo-friendly content for whatever side of the fence the character sits on.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The only dev response so far to the handful of "we h8 pr3t0ri4z" types has been to announce that the next 2 Trials are against Anti-Matter and the Preetorian Hamidon - and these are the same devs who pulled a major feature from GR to redesign it to match player feedback - so it's not that they don't lsiten
Also, after those 2 Trials, there is a lot more Praetorian content to come |
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We can but hope.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I hope its Loyalist content (it really doesn't make sense that die-hard Loyalist characters are suddenly fighting Praetorians) and Incarnate solo-friendly content for whatever side of the fence the character sits on.
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@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
More loyalist content would still run into the same deadend as the current loyalist sutff - you'll have to switch sides to do the Incarnate content.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What I meant was Incarnate stuff for Loyalists. Y'know, like raid Nemesis Rex's home for Cole or bomb Axis Amerika to oblivion for Cole, etc. etc..
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
More loyalist content would still run into the same deadend as the current loyalist sutff - you'll have to switch sides to do the Incarnate content.
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Nor does it mean they listen all the time. In this thread, there's a fairly even number of vocal dissenters and vocal supporters. If you want to pretend that means there's a bajillion supporters and five dissenters, that's your own fantasy and have fun with it but it's meaningless in any real context.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The only dev response so far to the handful of "we h8 pr3t0ri4z" types has been to announce that the next 2 Trials are against Anti-Matter and the Preetorian Hamidon - and these are the same devs who pulled a major feature from GR to redesign it to match player feedback - so it's not that they don't lsiten
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I would assume the majority opinion is along the lines of "We don't care, we don't bother to follow the plot anyway; just give us stuff to punch".
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I said as much earlier. |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I would assume the majority opinion is along the lines of "We don't care, we don't bother to follow the plot anyway; just give us stuff to punch".
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Also, I'm not sure its that they don't listen sometimes. I think it's more along the lines that they listen to things that can truly impact the majority of players in a meaningful way. They have to distill a LOT of crap from us forum posters with our personal agendas/grudges and illogical likes/dislikes.
But it's also true that if anyone has anything worthwhile to say, it will be one of us because the rest of the players of the game don't give a crap or aren't smart enough to give a crap. They just want to get on with playing. They aren't paying very close attention to much else as long as it isn't stopping them from playing the game.
I hate to say that anyone isn't "smart enough", I think it's just a question of priorities. I've heard many people say before that, if they wanted a good story, they'd read a book or watch a movie. There's a conceit that MMORPG plots are thin devices to hang the combat on and I think a lot of people just aren't interested in bothering with it and want to get on to the mob-punching part.
To answer some of the folks in regards to how others should play/enjoy the game, some folks enjoy the game for different reasons. Some enjoy the story and content; some don't. In the last few repsonses, I'm seeing posts stating that "a majority" don't care about the story. Let's not get carried away with the hyperbole, please.
There are a few schools of thought/manners of play here, and City of Heroes, particularly Going Rogue, hits on quite a few of the different ways folks like to play the game.
Some folks are rewards centric. They want the drops, the XP, the merits, etc. They don't care about the story - just the end reward or 'prize' for whatever level of satisfaction (end game, end of an arc, getting to Cimerora, CoP, etc) that motivates them.
Some folks are story centric. They like to know why and whatfore are they doing what they're doing. As such, with purpose, they too will roll through content, but with a different focus than, say, the reward centric crowd.
Some folks are completionist. They want all the badges, all the rewards, all the arcs done, the maximum IO'd character builds, etc. They have a focused goal that may not entertain undesireable rewards or stories.
Some folks are here for the escape. Real life can suck, and as such, regardless of what the game offers, they are happy to click away and play so long as real life stays out of it all. They are enjoying themselves as long as the game doesn't become work.
Some folks are hunters. They are looking for ways to break or stress the game's system; trick out and play a maxed out PvP build, max out their ingame funds via the market, how much XP can I get in one hour's time of hard core playing on Task Force x, etc.
Some folks are more social. They enjoy interrelating with others, socializing under the Atlas Statue, talking about movies, current events, etc., more than playing, grinding, maxing builds, following storylines, etc.
These few listed manners of play are a sampling of the folks in this community. Some might even have a mix of different ways to play simply to add a new depth to their efforts.
The point of all of this is: CoH provides one of the widest breadths of 'schools of play' in an MMO. Granted, some are not to the quality they want (PvP, Base building, for examples), but nonetheless they exist.
Some may be bored with the focus on Praetoria, and understandably so. This is, if I'm right, one of the longest running character-event stories consistantly and serially developed in this game, other than the amorphous "Coming Storm".
Should the devs and producers stop the Praetorian Train on the tracks for a bit to focus on other content and player desires? In my opinion, yes. Is this what the devs planned? I'd say no. Seems to me they planned to roll the Praetoria event out past even Issue 22 without a break for any other content, other than little perks here and there.
My recommendation is the devs, programmers and producers need to take a break from Praetoria within the next issue's development; change up the content a bit and fix some of the many things that are broke or need attention. Not everyone is into reward-centric or completionist manners of play, which most of the end game content has focused on. Going Rogue expansion, when it came out covered a fair share of manners of play, but I have to agree that a majority of their focus of late has tunnel-visioned even tighter towards exlusively pushing out end game content and level 50 related material.
Costume Creator updates? New costume sets? New/Revamped Ultramode zones? New villains/heroes? New storylines other than having a hook to Praetoria? PvP fix? Base building update/overhaul? Attention to AE to make it better? MM AT customization? Power customization part II? Many more things that need to melt into what forthcoming Issues are pointing towards now (i.e., Praetoria, Praetoria, Praetoria) and should be viewed with equal consideration, otherwise other particular schools of play that haven't seen any attention will feel left out.
Bored with Praetoria? Sure. /agree. If you agree, that Praetoria content needs to be sidetracked a bit, let the devs know by keeping this thread on track.
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Anyone posting on the forums is a vocal minority, including myself.|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Is this the new go-to to avoid needing a decent argument?
Because, judging from this thread, the "small vocal minority on the forums" with criticisms about Praetoria isn't much different than the "small vocal minority on the forums" defending it. Funny how the pro- group is so many times larger and yet only a handful have managed to find their voice. |
This is based upon hard evidence presented many time over the years.
My 'argument' is simply that forum posters are, in fact, a small minority of the playerbase and therefore should simply not be seen to represent any more than that.
Totaling all of the forums posters is still fraction of the playerbase.
Personally, I am not for or against most anything in the game. It is what it is, I play it because it provides me sufficient entertainment for the money. Harping on some specific part of it, crash-bugs aside, is just silly IMO.
In the end, I really should just stop reading the forums altogether, with the exception of the announcements and build advice areas, simply because game based forums are full of pedantic gamers that think they know better than the developers and love go on and on about irrelevant minutia. I don't stop reading simply because I like train wrecks and I enjoy laughing at people that complain yet still pay for the game. It's not like I don't have my own delusions just like everyone else.
And no, I am not referring to ALL posters. Just a large enough number to make me uneasy to tell people I am a gamer.
We all have our opinions and that is mine. If that offends anyone, then chances are they have already offended me, so ;P.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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I don't recall seeing anyone telling anyone else how they should enjoy or play the game. The closest I came to that was suggesting that searching for a classic 'hero' path in the 1 - 20 Praetorian content may be fruitless because I didn't think that the devs intended for there to be one. Whether you enjoy that type of content or not is entirely up to you.|
Originally Posted by Major Deej
To answer some of the folks in regards to how others should play/enjoy the game, some folks enjoy the game for different reasons. Some enjoy the story and content; some don't. In the last few repsonses, I'm seeing posts stating that "a majority" don't care about the story. Let's not get carried away with the hyperbole, please.
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| There are a few schools of thought/manners of play here, and City of Heroes, particularly Going Rogue, hits on quite a few of the different ways folks like to play the game. |
Are there folks who will do some of each method? Sure. My point was that whaling about how boring the PRaetorian content is and expecting that to change what the developers have planned for the next few issues is rather unrealistic.
Lets look at another aspect of this. When people do what most MMOs expect them to do, i.e. team up to fight together, most of the time, story takes a back seat to gameplay and the drive to progress. I have not seen any MMO come up with a way to counteract this that works. (Well...I suppose we'll see how TOR manages to do it. Bioware just might...but I'm not holding my breath.)
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| Some may be bored with the focus on Praetoria, and understandably so. This is, if I'm right, one of the longest running character-event stories consistantly and serially developed in this game, other than the amorphous "Coming Storm". |
Issue 19 had a bunch of stuff that wasn't directly tied to Praetoria as well. Including 2 story arcs which saw zero Praetorian characters with any direct influence on the story.
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| Bored with Praetoria? Sure. /agree. If you agree, that Praetoria content needs to be sidetracked a bit, let the devs know by keeping this thread on track. |
And I as noted before, only the developers have access to the data which shows if people are avoiding Praetorian content. I'd say that based on the current server activity, the game is more lively than ever in a long time with the addition of GR and the Praetorian focus.
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Praetoria is basically a super-crossover event for CoX. It actually has almost all the classic story-points of a mega-crossover. That why everything seems to be centered around Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Selenir
But WHY does the game expect that my villains will head into Praetoria to save its people, when I shouldn't have to care a bit about their lives or well-being?
TL;DR: Give us more varied content. Praetoria is being over-used right now. |
Still here, even after all this time!
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Yeah, pretty much this. The 1-20 Praetoria stories are pretty good, the Loyalist/Resistance conflict is fun, and then the story just fizzles out. Next we see the Praetorians they're generic supervillains that would make Lord Recluse go "What, really? You're going with THAT?! Where is your supervillain dignity?" I mean, conquer all of existence? You'll have to excuse me, but my cliché alarm just exploded. Twice. Cole was much more interesting as the guy trying to hold together a post apocalyptic world with an iron fist. That's a great villain. Cole the inter-dimensional conquerer is not.|
Originally Posted by Gearsinger
I'm the weirdo who is here for the story.
The Praetorian story, or at least the crazy well part, is bad enough that I really have no interest in seeing where it goes. |
Add to that the disappointment with the Well of the Furies being tied so closely into Praetoria and then the endgame pretty much becomes pointless. I'm not opposed to big team trials in general, but these just seem smalltime. I can go from stopping Nemesis from taking over the Rikti Homeworld on my own to needing 12 people to raid a hospital. How does that make sense? And "The Well did it" doesn't count. That's an excuse, not an explanation.
If we're needing a raid size group to do something, that something had better be on a scale that that needs so many divinely powered superheroes. As far as I'm concerned, the Apex and Tin Mage TFs should have been saved for trials. A full on invasion? Cool! A retaliatory strike? Also cool! It just makes the two coming trials seem so puny in comparison.
Then there's the whole army of major threats waiting offscreen like Rularuu, the Leviathan, the Coming Storm, good ol' Nemesis and even Arachnos. But no. All Praetorian for the endgame. And Praetoria got boring several months ago.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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He can combine those roles - just like does as grandfather and boyfriend.
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Originally Posted by McNum
Cole was much more interesting as the guy trying to hold together a post apocalyptic world with an iron fist. That's a great villain. Cole the inter-dimensional conquerer is not.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I don't think this "renders everything you did in Praetoria meaningless and shallow" though. Those actions are a reflection of your character, either way- it helps you establish who your character IS, while leaving you in control of what your character's inclination will go.
Maybe the mechanics of the moral choices would suggest you'd be heroic, but you want your character so angst-ridden over the tough decisions that he's made that he sees himself differently- as something of a monster not fit for polite society, so he effectively exiles himself to the Rogue Isles. There, over time he's tested... sometimes rising to the right thing, sometimes failing, and eventually finds "Rogue" status. Maybe... someday... he'll come to terms with his path and choose "hero" but not right away.
Maybe your character is so deluded by his own belief in himself that he's blind to the hurt he's caused-- he'd be a perfect candidate to take the path to heroside, find himself a poor fit, and slide toward vigilante and then villainhood. Maybe he needs to truly hit rock bottom before coming back.
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To me, the fact that every character (resistance or loyal) can choose hero or villain says more about the morality of the hero side than anyone else. War makes strange bedfellows, and they've shown that matter the atrocities you may have in your past, they'll climb in bed with you.
That kind of behavior usually leads to regret down the road.