Supporters of Emperor Cole are abandoned?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-03-09 03:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There's a point to this. I preface with that because I don't want you to think I'm jerking your chain.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
It depends on how much effort is being taken to limit or avoid civilian casualties. And no, I'm not able to sit down and arbitrarily say how much effort is 'enough', with the excpetion that there has to be at least some.
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Let's say that the leadership of this rebellion had the following rules of engagement:
1) Don't target civilians;
2) Any member of the PPD, Seers, or IDF is not a civilian whether armed or not;
3) Any building, installation, or area is fair game for attack notwithstanding the presence of some civilians where: A) a substantial number of Praetorian troops or robots are stationed, B) they create weapons or other implements used to subjugate the population, C) torture prisoners or hold captives.
4) The elimination of extremely high value targets (i.e. Cole or a Praetor) justify targeting places where civilians are likely to be.
You joining up?
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The point of those questions is this: before you've seemed to argue that those who oppose Cole must be held to a standard that seems well beyond even what a real life military would hold itself to. War is nasty business and civil wars even more so. These conflicts almost always take place in areas where civilians are put in harms way. It seems unreasonable to suggest that Cole could be unseated without there being no harm or disruption to the civilian population of Praetoria.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually, I try to hold to military standard. I hold to that standard, because I am former military, and that's what I know. And there's a VAST difference between that standard and associating with people who want to Nuke a city that they EXPLICITLY ensured would have no actual targets other than civilian.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The point of those questions is this: before you've seemed to argue that those who oppose Cole must be held to a standard that seems well beyond even what a real life military would hold itself to. War is nasty business and civil wars even more so. These conflicts almost always take place in areas where civilians are put in harms way. It seems unreasonable to suggest that Cole could be unseated without there being no harm or disruption to the civilian population of Praetoria.
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EDIT: Especially when it's already well known that the weapon used wouldn't even harm the primary target even if he was there.
EDIT2: And this is already off topic. Perhaps we should shift to PMs.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I can tell you haven't played to the end of the Powers Loyalist storyline, and its funny because I posted the text from it earlier in this thread. At the end, you actually prove you're more loyal to Cole than Praetor Berry. Cole wanted the Olympian project cancelled and Berry was like "NO! SCIENCE WILL BE DONE! SCREW COLE'S ORDERS!!!" and then you rat him out to Cole.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You're not getting my point. Cole doesn't want your help. Once you get to a certain level of power, you are too dangerous to keep around. He barely has control of the Praetors as the high level hero arcs shows. He doesn't need another level 50 meta-human who may even pull power from the Well on his side. If you believe in Cole's ideals, then you can try to assume his mantle for yourself. But loyalty to him isn't welcome.
That's how I understand both the end of the Loyalist storyline (when you go to Primal Earth) as well as the rest of the story. I don't disagree with your desire, but I do disagree with your contention that the devs haven't sufficiently explained this in the story. |
Then, presuming you take the obvious choice to go to the Rogue Isles, who meets you on the other side???
Viridian.
He says we'll have great fun together. So you level up through the content, but then suddenly at level 50 you have "fight the greater evil" task forces that pit you suddenly against Cole and his Praetors. Huh??
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Understandable since the LGTF was fone before Ramiel. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Interresting, I've read the mission text for the LGTF, and not once in it, did I ever get the impression that it was Hero 1 back under Rikti control, it was always more of a "OMG! IS THAT HERO 1?!" feel to it.
And back under Rikti control? For the 100th time? Is he truely that impressive of a hero now? Not to mention everyone taking him on again and again and putting him BACK under Vanguard control (which is what you do in the blue side incarnate arc) |
But how else do you justify doing a LGTF with the Alpha slot? By the game time-line (i.e. most recent content) they now know its Hero 1, and are trying to cure him.
Feh, y'know what, t'hell with it. People are just being awkward here and the whole discussion is giving me a headache. But asking for more options is not a bad thing, and saying other people shouldnt have options is just being a jerk for the sake of it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You don't. The story is only read once.
| But how else do you justify doing a LGTF with the Alpha slot? By the game time-line (i.e. most recent content) they now know its Hero 1, and are trying to cure him. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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So you're basically telling me that the way me and peeps on Union RP is wrong, then?
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Originally Posted by Venture
You don't. The story is only read once.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If you're trying to hammer the square peg of repetitive gameplay into the round hole of personal RP, then yes, you're doing it wrong.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Or maybe just being a little more creative than some?
Telling someone their method of gaming and especially RP is 'wrong' is....well, I don't even know to being with that, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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All this is why my level 19 Loyalist is parked in Praetoria waiting for further levels of content. I won't want to remove her from that section of the game. She's a future incarnation of my main, who has been heroic as well as villainous and is now bored out of her mind. She finally finds a dimension with a Cole that she actually *respects* (remember she's not terribly sane after living so many lifetimes worth of years) and certainly won't give up her loyalty easily. Or at all. There's something to be said for throwing in with *the winners* of history... 
Emperor's Adul8r just won't work anywhere but by Cole's side.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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It's a Venture post. Just ignore him. Sometimes he has some interesting things to say but you've always got to take them with a massive salt lick. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Or maybe just being a little more creative than some?
Telling someone their method of gaming and especially RP is 'wrong' is....well, I don't even know to being with that, anyway. |
Game your own way. His is obviously "right", for people just like him. Thankfully, there are other opinions out there.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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Much like Venture, I see running the LGTF with the Apex, much like running the LGTF multiple times.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Understandable since the LGTF was fone before Ramiel.
But how else do you justify doing a LGTF with the Alpha slot? By the game time-line (i.e. most recent content) they now know its Hero 1, and are trying to cure him. Feh, y'know what, t'hell with it. People are just being awkward here and the whole discussion is giving me a headache. But asking for more options is not a bad thing, and saying other people shouldnt have options is just being a jerk for the sake of it. |
It's an OOC thing, not an IC thing.
Now...I'm not actually against having more options. Options are GREAT! Options are AWESOME!
However, I see the option of staying loyal to Cole, for one, doesn't work with the rest of the content as it is. Yeah, you go red side, but do those missions, and it's basically you starting to want power for your own (or being duped...ect).
The other problem, and while you may not like it, is it's such a narrower focus, it's likely not worth the developers time. I mean really, staying a Cole worshipping loyalist, means you're doing the one thing MANY complained about to begin with, when it comes to Red Side content. You're going to feel like a lackey.
You might not like the Incarnate story arc, you may not like being linked to the Well, but at least it doesn't feel like you're the Well's lackey (didnt to me anyways).
One easy enough solution, inwhich as an RPer, I'm sure you've done (I could be wrong, but I haven't met an RP yet who hasnt done this), is just say you're loyal to Cole, and RP it as such, and run the things such as the Incarnate/Apex/Tin Mage/future content, as OOC missions.
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I have taken a powers path all the way through. However, if you go to Paragon, Cole still tells you to bug off, even though you all were best buddies ten minutes ago. |
Originally Posted by Scythus
I can tell you haven't played to the end of the Powers Loyalist storyline, and its funny because I posted the text from it earlier in this thread. At the end, you actually prove you're more loyal to Cole than Praetor Berry. Cole wanted the Olympian project cancelled and Berry was like "NO! SCIENCE WILL BE DONE! SCREW COLE'S ORDERS!!!" and then you rat him out to Cole.
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Then, presuming you take the obvious choice to go to the Rogue Isles, who meets you on the other side??? Viridian. He says we'll have great fun together. So you level up through the content, but then suddenly at level 50 you have "fight the greater evil" task forces that pit you suddenly against Cole and his Praetors. Huh?? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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AHA! So you admit the writing doesn't make sense!
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I have taken a powers path all the way through. However, if you go to Paragon, Cole still tells you to bug off, even though you all were best buddies ten minutes ago.
Didn't go redside, but if it's any consolation it's makes even less sense when you go blueside. |
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Mmm... Salt lick...|
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
It's a Venture post. Just ignore him. Sometimes he has some interesting things to say but you've always got to take them with a massive salt lick.
Game your own way. His is obviously "right", for people just like him. Thankfully, there are other opinions out there. |
I'm of the opinion that the story, as it's presented, is just a base. We can interpret things our own way. How would our characters deal with the situation? What would we say? The dialogue options we're presented are just the basic gist of what we would convey, and the final actions are where it's all going to boil down to, anyway.
In my take on the Cleopatra situation, my character refused to fight either of them, arguing to the end that more evidence was needed. Washington loses it and proceeds to try to kill Cleopatra himself and my character tries to restrain him, opening up an avenue for Cleopatra to kill him. She then confesses to being a part of the resistance and apologizes for setting you up earlier.
Why is she understandable? She just led you on a quest to stop the more "hardcore" members of the Resistance from blowing up a hospital. What was Scott going to have her do, then? Why, betray the Powers Division goon who's throwing a wrench in his plans, of course!
Can we see any of this? No. Could I just be blowing smoke up your butts? Of course.
Does it really matter?
In the end, those of us who roleplay will come up with whatever justification we want to explain our characters' progression through the game. Heck, a lot of the content is so heavily rehashed (like the ITF), that I don't see it as my characters actually doing it anymore. They're just reading about it or running a simulation of it. Is that how the game treats it? Of course not. I don't care, though. That's how I justify it.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
The next 2 Incarnate Trials invovle Anti-Matter's reactors, and the Hamidon in the Underground - and I'm not sure that either of those will provide options for the stiff-armers either 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Hamidon in the underground...
Underground Praetoria? Something's odd about that...
It's like there's a shift from "Stay the Hell away from us!" to "Oh crap! What's that crawling under your city? Do you need help? We'll help! Seriously! Hold on, we'll get you out of this mess!"
Now, if it's Hamidon underneath Paragon and the Rogue Isles, that would make for more basic story. It would also further explain why there's one in the Hive and one in the Abyss.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Praetoria City is built on the site of Tyrant's first vitory over the Hamidon - and the exact spot is in the park in Imperial City - it's marked with a plaque.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Hamidon in the underground...
Underground Praetoria? Something's odd about that... |
Plus, there are those creepy bubbling/roaring sounds you can hear from time to time in the Underground - it migth just be the pipes though
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You know, I've wondered about those. The earth shakes and dust falls from the ceiling and stuff. I thought it was a train or something, but... there aren't any trains up above. And for the amount of tracks down there, there aren't any trains down below either.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Praetoria City is built on the site of Emperor Cole's first vitory over the Hamidon - and the exact spot is in the park in Imperial City - it's marked with a plaque.
Plus, there are those creepy bubbling/roaring sounds you can hear from time to time in the Underground - it migth just be the pipes though |
The Hamidon suggestion does explain a thing or two, but then why are its tentacles outside the sonic barriers?
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Maybe Hamidon's gotten a wee bit bigger since Cole fought him last.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
You know, I've wondered about those. The earth shakes and dust falls from the ceiling and stuff. I thought it was a train or something, but... there aren't any trains up above. And for the amount of tracks down there, there aren't any trains down below either.
The Hamidon suggestion does explain a thing or two, but then why are its tentacles outside the sonic barriers? |
It's body could be under the city, but its tentacles could reach all the way to the area outside.
Or as it's a basic cell, it could divide itself into separate tentacles that aren't attached to the body - like it could spawn them from itself as a kind of pet summoning attack.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yeah, agreed. I have a Powers Loyalist who ended up a Rogue, and really, she has no beef with Cole. She did her time under him, she pretty much ended up the Praetorian equivalent of a rock star, and then she went to the Isles to do her own thing. If she finds out Cole plans to invade Primal Earth, well, what does she care? If you forced her to pick one of the two societies to survive, she'd go for Praetoria in a heartbeat. Primal Earth is just that place she can take people's stuff more openly, and she'd rather have Cole than Recluse any day of the week.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I am coming from the perspective that it is in my character's enlightened self-interest to serve Cole and his vision. Sure, my toon need not be pleasant and nice but Cole is tougher than me, I know what side my bread is buttered and working with him is a good bet. He is the man in control (mostly - yes I take on board the view that Praetoria is also chaotic too) but I can carve a name for myself amongst Cole's greatest henchmen by serving him faithfully and well, thus accumulating power for myself. If the other Praetors can do that, then I can be so much better - after all I believe in myself.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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That's another weird thing I've noticed about the loyalists - they complain about serving Recluse and Arachnos, but they seem to be falling over themselves in their desire to serve Tyrant and his thugs |
Originally Posted by Kelenar
and she'd rather have Cole than Recluse any day of the week.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Tyrant appeals to ideals, even if they are frightening ones. "Mankind must be enslaved for their own protection" isn't something I personally get behind, but it's still a better mantra than "Screw you guys, I'm Lord Recluse!" It's just weird to me that Tyrant is seen as so much worse.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's another weird thing I've noticed about the loyalists - they complain about serving Recluse and Arachnos, but they seem to be falling over themselves in their desire to serve Tyrant and his thugs
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In practice, though, I can understand why they did it. None of our characters, hero or villain, are really asked to be particularly loyal to anyone beyond basic lip service. This expands character concepts for the most part. If our characters had to be loyal to the FBSA or to Arachnos, we'd be more limited.
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I think it's because Loyalists, regardless of moral choices, are considered villains by the game's system and every bit of co-op text ever (which I think is stupid).
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's another weird thing I've noticed about the loyalists - they complain about serving Recluse and Arachnos, but they seem to be falling over themselves in their desire to serve Tyrant and his thugs
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
A great example is in the Ramiel arc where you have to fight the Honoree. Now, in that mission it is now treated like, yes, Honoree is Hero 1. No, we haven't figured out a cure for it. We're still working on that. And we need him back, ta.
Now, that still can work with the LGTF, despite fighting the Honoree there.
Simple answer? He's temporarily back under Rikti control in the living weapon tug-o-war and you have to fight him to bring him back under VG control. Sure, it doesnt tie in great if other people are doing it at seperate times, but hey, thats a meta-game continous world flaw.
And it sure can work for a lot of peeps on a sever, from an RP view. Union manages it just fine, thanks.
And back under Rikti control? For the 100th time? Is he truely that impressive of a hero now?
Not to mention everyone taking him on again and again and putting him BACK under Vanguard control (which is what you do in the blue side incarnate arc)
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