Supporters of Emperor Cole are abandoned?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-03-09 03:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
(b)We're already given the opportunity to support people who are hella worse. Really, why is throwing in with Arachnos seen as higher on the mental health scale than throwing in with the folks across the dimensional gap? |
Well ultimately Recluse's Goal is to take over the world. In Recluse's future there is room for metahumans to live and prosper.
Cole wants to take over the world. In Cole's Future he is the only Metahuman alive.
Quote:
You haven't seen Recluse's future, have you? He's at least as uninterested in the whole "surviving metahumans" thing as Tyrant, and he has the added bonus of being completely uninterested in the whole "surviving anyone". Tyrant at least wants to keep a zoo.
|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Well ultimately Recluse's Goal is to take over the world. In Recluse's future there is room for metahumans to live and prosper.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
You haven't seen Recluse's future, have you? He's at least as uninterested in the whole "surviving metahumans" thing as Tyrant, and he has the added bonus of being completely uninterested in the whole "surviving anyone". Tyrant at least wants to keep a zoo.
|
Well, that outcome wasn't at all what Recluse had planned, and is why he decides not to mess with the PC any further.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
I've seen that future a couple of times and brought back some souvenirs to the Present Recluse. He knows not to mess with me regardless of what he does.
Plus it was only Atlas Park and probably most of Paragon that was destroyed.
Cities can be rebuilt and there was a very healthy showing of Arachnos Troops there. Not all of them were robots whereas Tyrants Army is primarily robots.
Quote:
Actually, he originally decides "who cares, if I can win". It's only once you prove to him that he can't that he decides to give that path up.
|
Originally Posted by Furio
Well, that outcome wasn't at all what Recluse had planned, and is why he decides not to mess with the PC any further.
|
Quote:
That's NOT the impression I got from his speech when you talk to him during the "leaving Praetoria" mission.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
You haven't seen Recluse's future, have you? He's at least as uninterested in the whole "surviving metahumans" thing as Tyrant, and he has the added bonus of being completely uninterested in the whole "surviving anyone". Tyrant at least wants to keep a zoo.
|
If he at least wants to keep a zoo, it'll be of Praetorian meta humans loyal to him. And few at best.
NONE from Primal Earth . . . or any other dimension for that matter. The rest he plans to nuke from orbit . . . aka genocide.
EDIT: I wouldn't trust the rantings of someone who is working hand in hand with an entity that has gone batshite crazy and wields near omnipotent power (aka WotF).
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Has there been any evidence that the WarWorks/Clockwork are immune to EMP weaponry? I can't seem to find any. If that's the case...|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Cities can be rebuilt and there was a very healthy showing of Arachnos Troops there. Not all of them were robots whereas Tyrants Army is primarily robots.
|
Why the hell haven't we just zapped the damn things?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
His war plans in the Responsibility arc basically involve tossing non-powered folks in front of the Seers, and then summary executions to follow immediately if their brains don't read "Hey, that Cole fella is pretty cool". However, the opportunity does seem to be there. Heck, he even gives a chance to the character, as well. "Go check out how much this world sucks, but you can be at my side or at my feet later."
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
NONE from Primal Earth . . . or any other dimension for that matter. The rest he plans to nuke from orbit . . . aka genocide.
|
Quote:
right like I said people from Praetoria. I doubt he would give the same option to many (if any) metas from Primal. Since he thinks they are all barbarians.
|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
His war plans in the Responsibility arc basically involve tossing non-powered folks in front of the Seers, and then summary executions to follow immediately if their brains don't read "Hey, that Cole fella is pretty cool". However, the opportunity does seem to be there. Heck, he even gives a chance to the character, as well. "Go check out how much this world sucks, but you can be at my side or at my feet later."
|
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Actually, it was from the moment GR was first announced |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Golden Girl's central point since Going Rogue has been that Cole is an insane madman and that any who follow him are villains. Seems she was right.
|
Also, I'll repost something from another thread about potential high level loyalist content, if the devs decide to add a post-20 loyalist path:
Quote:
|
I thnik you're totally missing the opportunities this opens up for cosmic scale evil by villain players doing high level loyalists content. Think Praetorian Portal Corp - for our Portal Corp missions, we go to other dimensions to fight threats or invetsigate potential threats, as well as saving and helping people form other dimensions. But imagine that as loyalist content, with players becoming Incarnate war leaders in Tyrant's invasion armies, helping him expand his empire across the multiverse. You could an arc or TF where you literally conquered a world, or totally destroyed one. You could lead NPC pets like War Walkers to attack cities or military facilities on other worlds - you could take personal charge of assassination operations on leading figures on various worlds who were resisting Tyrant's onslaught - you could have misisons to enslave entire populations, or totally wipe out opposing armies. Making the multiverse threatening force a human one - which has also allowed players to serve it at lower levels - allows for the possibility of players being able to serve it at higher levels too, and deliver the kind of cosmic evil content that you can't get when working for Recluse. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Now, here's an interesting angle. We know the Well doesn't work with people. It controls people. Cole being the Well's champion is basically saying that Cole is the Well's puppet. And really... we don't know how that happened. Did he willingly give himself up to the Well, or was he just looking for more power, and chose the wrong method? Is he the major villain in this case, or could he be considered another victim?|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
EDIT: I wouldn't trust the rantings of someone who is working hand in hand with an entity that has gone batshite crazy and wields near omnipotent power (aka WotF).
|
How much of Cole is left in the villain we now face?
See, this is how I'd work the supporters of Emperor Cole into the progressing story line: He's not himself any more, the Well has taken too much from him, in giving him his godlike powers. The charismatic man who could make you believe and trust him is no more. The human who could be reasoned with is lost within the Well. Those who once wished to stand by his side must first stop his dark ambitions, and purge the influence of the Well.
Save the Emperor, before all is lost.
Quote:
Good analysis.
|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Well, what the devs tried is to set up Cole as literally everyone's enemy. Heroes are naturally against him becaus he's an interdimensional invader and villains want him gone because he's busting in on their turf, plus the promise of stealing his phat lewts and bust in on his turf. The Resistance have obviously been against Cole since level 1.
It's a wee bit more complicated with Loyalists, though, but not really much. The idea is that Power guys are in it, well, for power. They want to rise through the ranks and gain control over those they consider inferior. Then they learn that Emperor Cole plans to basically replace everyone with clones of himself and realise there's no future for them in Praetoria so they head out into Earth Prime. By the time they're 50 they're mighty powerful and they don't feel like becoming someone's lackey again, so they hold no sympathies to Emperor Cole. As for the Responsibility guys, well, I always took them as the good cops in a corrupt state. They want to make their world a safe one to live in Then at the end of their stay in Praetoria they learn about their Emperor's invasion plans and realise that not only many people in Earth Prime will die, they will take the fight to them and the civilians and innocents in their own home dimension will suffer and perish. At this point the good cop decides to go on a diplomatic mission to Earth Prime to both show them that us Praetorians aren't all that bad and to show their dear and loving Emperor that peaceful coexistence is possible and preferable over an all-out war. Then your Emperor shows up and calls you a naive idiot and at least at that point the good cop's illusions might start to crumble. On that note, the Behavioural Adjustment Facility and Lambda Sector are purely military targets with next to no civilians around. The Responsibilities strike there to cripple the war efforts and minimise civilian casualties, and in the case of the BAF prevent mindwashed Resistance members to run amok in the city and kill innocents. So as I said earlier, the devs tried to set up Emperor Cole as literally every toon's enemy. I think we can all assume the reasons for that are purely practical. Instead of making a huge amount of content in a little amount of time for Heroes, Villains and several Praetorian orientations, they just focus on one thing. Of course, when you have one thing meant to suit everyone, you'll just end up stepping on plenty of toes. |
Quote:
For that matter:|
Originally Posted by Xaphan
Now, here's an interesting angle. We know the Well doesn't work with people. It controls people. Cole being the Well's champion is basically saying that Cole is the Well's puppet....snip...
|
-snipped from Cole's biography-
Quote:
|
...The battle was brief, and at first indecisive. Cole's attacks seemed to damage the creature, but the same physiology that had rendered it immune to the combined effects of a half dozen nuclear weapons were able to easily deal with Cole's powers. Likewise, Cole proved too tough for the flailing tentacles and claws to do much more than swat him around, but Cole would recover just as quickly. Desperate to kill the beast, Cole called upon a reserve of energy he had only ever suspected lie within him and unleashed a devastating bolt of power that nearly laid the beast low. Now he had its undivided attention. The creature quickly healed the injury and then responded by projecting a tangible beam of psychic energy at Cole, rendering him as helpless as a rag doll. A battle of wills ensued, and the world held its collective breath for what seemed like hours. Then, with a clap of thunder, the energy field around Cole shattered and the great beast shuddered, lumbered away, and then collapsed. Cole had defeated the beast, but he had also learned much more from his brief joining of minds.... |
And then, moments later, the Hamidon --also a known Incarnate-- may have done the same.
What if the well effectively controls both? If the well is using cole to launch its invasion on Primal Earth, then what is it doing with the Hamidon during this time? Is Cole's assault on Primal Earth the Well's main objective? or is all this just an elaborate ruse- something to draw attention away from something else... something growing in strength beyond the sonic barriers...
Quote:
Okay, up till this point I have not been on board Eva's rants against the growing ubiquity of the well. But the logical conclusion to this line of thinking, now that I too have some incarnates, is that I've been wasting my time playing City of Pawns for seven years.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
What if the well effectively controls both? If the well is using cole to launch its invasion on Primal Earth, then what is it doing with the Hamidon during this time? Is Cole's assault on Primal Earth the Well's main objective? or is all this just an elaborate ruse- something to draw attention away from something else... something growing in strength beyond the sonic barriers...
|
It's a really uncomfortable god-modded meta narrative from this player's perspective. One that I'd prefer NOT to entertain. Lord Recluse in CoV was bad enough for my tastes. This? Talk about predetermination ad absurdum! Blech!
Quote:
If the Devs introduce something that allows us to either support Cole or work in a way alligned with our chosen morality, I might change my mind about the current storyline. As it is, it renders any morality choices we make up to 50 utterly pointless. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Something else that's important to remember is that GR wasn't originally planned to have the "good" career path - that was a later idea after development had started, and as they work a couple of Issues in advance all the time, that would mean that I19 and I20 were already being planned before they decided to add the "good" option.
|
Once again villains have to team up with heroes for "the greater good" or whatever excuse is flavour of the month. If we get the chance to actually be villainous for a change, I'll happily eat my words. Not going to hold my breath though.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
Huh? Did you even READ that last morality choice?|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
It's a wee bit more complicated with Loyalists, though, but not really much. The idea is that Power guys are in it, well, for power. They want to rise through the ranks and gain control over those they consider inferior. Then they learn that Emperor Cole plans to basically replace everyone with clones of himself and realise there's no future for them in Praetoria so they head out into Earth Prime. By the time they're 50 they're mighty powerful and they don't feel like becoming someone's lackey again, so they hold no sympathies to Emperor Cole.
|
Quote:
|
Finale: Following Orders Cole has informed me that my project is to be cancelled immediately. He has no idea what he is throwing away here! We're so close to success, I just need a little time to figure out exactly what went wrong. I'm sure it's something to do with the Limbo Device, but I don't know exactly what. Ask what he's going to do. Cole only need know that the current version of The Olympian is destroyed, but my research will continue. When I have finally overcome whatever critical flaw I overlooked, then Cole will realize that I did the right thing. Go in and disconnect that flawed chunk of flesh from the nutrient vat. It is of no use to me any more. Unnecessary Solicitation Cole has requested that The Olympian be destroyed immediately. The hubris of that man believing that he knows better than I when science is concerned! *** Moral Choice Players are presented with a moral choice: to side with the Resistance or aid the Loyalists. Destroy Berry's Cloning Lab. Destroy all data and material related to The Olympian. Side with the Resistance. The power of The Olympian is too great to be in the hands of someone like Neuron. The only person you can trust with that kind of power is yourself. If you can't have that power, then nobody should have that power. That is the only way to ensure your own safety and that of the people of Praetoria. (This is the final moral choice in the Power storyline.) Inform Cole of Berry's Scheme. Gain favor with the Emperor and expose Berry's betrayal. Aid the Loyalists. Cole's orders were clear, but Praetor Berry's devotion to science is clearly more important to him. What the Empire needs are loyal men and women who follow the orders of their Emperor; not self serving children who think only of themselves. By warning the Emperor of where Berry's true loyalties lie you will prove your own loyalty to Cole and thus gain the trust of the most influential man in the world. (This is the final moral choice in the Power storyline.) *** Aid the Loyalists Mission Objective(s) Disconnect The Olympian (Single Player) Contact Emperor Cole Speak with Emperor Marcus Cole Thanks, Character. I don't know what the world would do without you. You begin to contact Emperor Cole... You've sent a message to Emperor Cole. Emperor ColeBriefing Considering recent events I assume that your message is of significance. It is, my lord. Please, you are one of Praetoria's greatest defenders, you have both my respect and my admiration. Dispense with the titles and call me Marcus. Marcus, Praetor berry has chosen not to follow your orders. I see. Stephen Berry has ever been difficult to control. It is, unfortunately, one of his many and varied flaws. That you suggest we must now add disloyalty is concerning to me. Do you have proof of this? The Olympian will be destroyed, but the data will not. I see, and I can understand his desire to keep his research, but there are two reasons why I stand by my decision. First, I believe The Olympian project was too dangerous. It was powerful but was uncontrollable. Second, I gave Neuron a direct order based on what I had observed. That he chooses to ignore the latter despite the former is greatly concerning. It tells me he has grown blind with pride. Marcus, if you wish, I will carry out your order. It is not a matter of me wishing, Character, but rather of me hoping. That you would do the right thing is of great comfort to me. I shall deal with Stephen and The Olympian. I shall have to remind Praetor Berry that he should not grow too prideful. Too many have already forgotten how hubris nearly destroyed us all. Understood. |
Yes, we read it, and if you were at all up on the current developments you'd know the cloning project eventually went ahead anyway. You fight one in the new version of Maria Jenkins' arc and (going from what I've read of it) the clones are in the Lambda Sector trial as well.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Characters that went and stayed redside aren't going to know that.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, we read it, and if you were at all up on the current developments you'd know the cloning project eventually went ahead anyway. You fight one in the new version of Maria Jenkins' arc and (going from what I've read of it) the clones are in the Lambda Sector trial as well.
|
There are two sides to this game and if you're not playing both, you're missing out and probably shouldn't be taking strong positions in arguments about canon.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Wow, the point just flew over your head, didn't it?|
Originally Posted by Venture
There are two sides to this game and if you're not playing both, you're missing out and probably shouldn't be taking strong positions in arguments about canon.
|
Villains don't encounter Maria Jenkins. At all. There is no Praetorian content villainside. Powers Loyalists that went with the likely Rogue Isles option and stayed there are not going to know about the friggin' Olympian Guard and its ridiculous to expect them to. Yes, we the players know about it, but that's metagame knowledge. A character isn't going to know it.
And if Cole's plan is to really replace all superbeings with clones of himself, why the hell is he keeping the Praetors around, eh?
Quote:
Eh, I've never cared about the "City of Pawns" concerns, but I've never cared for the game's metastory either. I take the attitude of a modern major title comic book writer and just ignore anything that detracts from the story I want to tell :P The speculation there was sheerly on what COULD be possible.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Okay, up till this point I have not been on board Eva's rants against the growing ubiquity of the well. But the logical conclusion to this line of thinking, now that I too have some incarnates, is that I've been wasting my time playing City of Pawns for seven years.
It's a really uncomfortable god-modded meta narrative from this player's perspective. One that I'd prefer NOT to entertain. Lord Recluse in CoV was bad enough for my tastes. This? Talk about predetermination ad absurdum! Blech! |
But... taking that a bit farther just for the fun of it, though others have already traveled this path....
In the end of Ramiel's arc, the well wasn't where you expected it to be. What caused it to disappear? Did someone get to it first? Did THAT thing be so consumed by the fast-path that it became one with the well... corrupting the well and making it "mad"?
We know that it wasn't Mender Silos... who seemed quite miffed that it wasn't there.... (and who seemed to be there first, by the way). We also know that Mender Silos is one potential future 'good' Lord Nemesis.... but that means there could be more... other.... not-so-good variants of Lord Nemesis also traveling through the timestream. One of them could have traveled back and gotten to the well first... corrupting it... and bringing about all this madness.
Yes, it is all still a Nemesis plot.
Quote:
I see what you did there.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Eh, I've never cared about the "City of Pawns" concerns, but I've never cared for the game's metastory either. I take the attitude of a modern major title comic book writer and just ignore anything that detracts from the story I want to tell :P The speculation there was sheerly on what COULD be possible.
But... taking that a bit farther just for the fun of it, though others have already traveled this path.... In the end of Ramiel's arc, the well wasn't where you expected it to be. What caused it to disappear? Did someone get to it first? Did THAT thing be so consumed by the fast-path that it became one with the well... corrupting the well and making it "mad"? We know that it wasn't Mender Silos... who seemed quite miffed that it wasn't there.... (and who seemed to be there first, by the way). We also know that Mender Silos is one potential future 'good' Lord Nemesis.... but that means there could be more... other.... not-so-good variants of Lord Nemesis also traveling through the timestream. One of them could have traveled back and gotten to the well first... corrupting it... and bringing about all this madness. Yes, it is all still a Nemesis plot. |
And it proves just how mercurial my opinions of all things metastory actually are. Because this I'm actually fine with. But the sentient omnipotent, omnipresent god-well? Not so much. I guess it's why I always preferred Iron Man or Spidey or even Hawkeye and Mockingbird over Thor and all his foes. Gods in comics just bore me for some reason. Even if they have a great graphic presence as Thor did back in the 60's and 70's. *shrug*
Guess I'm a bit of proletariat and plebeian snob when it comes to my superheroes. I likes 'em scrappy and earthy, often with Shakespearian motives.
The only one that ever trumped this for me was Silver Surfer--and only sometimes--just cuz he could be so damn groovy now and then. Stoic but trippy. That and I think I just loved the blobby magenta cosmos they used to set him in.
When it comes to the well, I've always fancied the concept of "apparent intelligence." That is to say, you have an entity which appears to act with intelligence and will, but in fact has neither, and only has intelligence in action, but not intelligence in contemplation. It has the ability to find intelligent solutions to complex and unexpected programme, but lacks the intelligence to choose its own global objectives.
The well - to me - is a very powerful, but very unsentient entity that does the only thing it knows to do, for reasons that it cannot and does not care to define, even to itself. As such, it can be viewed as basic source of power, a tool that comes with both benefits and dangers. If you use explosives, for instance, they give you great power of destruction, but the explosives don't care if you set them off accidentally and will be all too happy to blow you to pieces.
In essence, I see the Well less as Galactus and more as a standard plot device mcguffin.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Some great comments here.
The lack of our own will is very disturbing in the whole Praetorian story as a whole (and I fear in the Incarnate arcs too... that's becoming increasingly apparent.)
One of the comments I noticed from a couple of people was "Don't become an Incarnate and you serve Cole." That's utter bull. If you follow that, then Lady Grey, Hero 1 and many others wouldn't work with Statesman but we know they are Incarnates.
I am coming from the perspective that it is in my character's enlightened self-interest to serve Cole and his vision. Sure, my toon need not be pleasant and nice but Cole is tougher than me, I know what side my bread is buttered and working with him is a good bet. He is the man in control (mostly - yes I take on board the view that Praetoria is also chaotic too) but I can carve a name for myself amongst Cole's greatest henchmen by serving him faithfully and well, thus accumulating power for myself. If the other Praetors can do that, then I can be so much better - after all I believe in myself.
My central point still stands: I don't need to worship Cole, or to adore him or to think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread: I simply need to recognise that I become stronger working for him, than against him. I prove that and it is demonstrated by level progression and accumulation of personal power. But then, just when I seem to be getting somewhere, and I've done everything he asks of me, he cuts me loose and tells me "right, bugger off and don't darken my doorstep again" and worse, I know that where I'm being sent is going to be invaded by his war machines.
It's a highly unsatisfactory outcome - and leaves me feeling very short changed and very let down. I am forced down a path that then cuts me short and leaves me scratching my head and wondering "WTF".
Thelonious Monk
The thing about it that kind of gets my goat is the way opposition to Tyrant just seems sort of shoehorned in. All the writing around this part of the story basically is about how absolutely nobody would support him under any circumstances and that doing so is such a horrible, horrible idea that it would be completely unthinkable to anyone no matter what their goals.
This is ignoring the facts that:
(a)Apparently, some people are fairly cool with the idea. If Tyrant is good enough for Marauder, why can't he be good enough for some of our characters?
and
(b)We're already given the opportunity to support people who are hella worse. Really, why is throwing in with Arachnos seen as higher on the mental health scale than throwing in with the folks across the dimensional gap?