Supporters of Emperor Cole are abandoned?

He may not, but I'd say he has more control over Berry than any player character.

Oh, I get that. I play Loyalist characters too, but they are all villains. What I meant was that people try to play Loyalists characters like they are they are good people trying to 'work within the system.' I can't understand that because the game is throwing every hint it can at you that 'wherever you start' you're a villain if you stay down the Loyalist path.

I see now what you meant. My apologies.

The option is simple, avoid the end game content, stay in Praetoria and play it out as being loyal to Cole.

Limits you in the extreme, but gives that "I'm a loyalist" view people want to keep.

Face it, the game is setup for at max 8 people RP, progressing through lvl 1 to lvl 50, to maintain any semblance of a story and act like you did in fact contribute to everything.

Now, some people might want to be the "Well I want to destroy Primal Earth" type, and for them, well, they're out of luck. You could be, well let's make it so there's a TF for Loyalist to go about winning this big war.

Mhmm. Then that invalidates pretty much the rest of the known story.

It's like doing the Praetorian story arcs...one character blows up the enriche factory, another saves it. So which way did the storyline actually take it?

It gave the options for your own character, and gave options that in the long run don't effect much of the story outside of not seeing contacts (unless it screws up and lets you visit them again...Arron Walker! He's alive again! \o/).

Now, I could see them doing a loyalist versus Heroes style thing, but it would require PvP, and how many who want to stay a Loyalist to Cole are actually for PvP?

Didn't Tyrant kidnap Statesman before the Longbow ever went to Praetoria. That's how I remember the storyline going.

No worries. Im not trying to say their nice people Just that not having an option is kinda sad when it builds up so well.

Example; despite not being a Praetorian mechanics wise (he was rolled before GR) my DP/MM Blaster Executioner Morden is a Praetorian Agent linked directly to Mother Mayhem. He's bascially a drugged up cyber-soldier mind-pawn, who hunts down anyone on his hit-list and terminates them. He would side with Cole through thick and thin, because Mothers the one grinding gears in his head wether he likes it or not.
That all takes a horrible disconect when it comes to end game content, sadly, due to the lack of any other option.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

She may be a traitor and a saboteur, but she's still a citizen.

Saying she had Praetor White under her thumb as an excuse to kill her, is like saying kill any criminal who can afford a great lawyer.

Concept sounds awesome!

Could say he breaks free of Mother Mayhem, and goes seeking vengeance, and in doing so is lead to the Incarnate Arc to continue his journey into the end game content.

With that in mind, that's exactly what Vigilantes do in their missions, and they're still considered "heroes" by the system, too.

Or, since he's in Primal Earth, he falls under the control of Sister Psyche, but she doesn't realize it. So your character has autonomy most of the time but is occasionally driven with urges to do good things and flirt with Manticore.

They're considered halfway to being villains. A fair number of the level 50 hero mission tips involve beating the hell out of vigilantes.

Hogwash. The multiple SGs full of RPers on Union and likely Virtue make that arguement totally invalid. Union has followed the timeline until the present day. Stuff like Angus McQueens arcs have to be fudged, because there is no way you can pretend the 2nd Rikti Invasion hasn't happened yet. The Invasion is happening on a day to day basis with Rikti Raids. The Warzone is just that, no longer a crash site. You cannot discard that. The timeline has moved on.

And, much like comic book continuity, the status quo still works. Big AVs are still at large for any number of reasons, such as jailbreaks, interception of PPD couriers, fakes, etc. Requiem, Vanessa DeVore, Baron Zoria and all that will always be out there because thats what Villains do.

It's called Negating Action. The Villains steal the Omega Team time memorial capsule; Heroes retrieve it. Villains set up a cloning lab; Heroes thwart the plan. Yes, that last ones twisted a little from in-game, but it still stands true.

It works, see? It already works. Otherwise the entire Freedom Phalanx would be dead, as would Lord Recluse, from people beating down on them. But they aren't. Why?
Villains beat down the Phalanx and make their escape before heavy Longbow and PPD reinforcements lock them down. Heroes infiltrate Granville just long enough to defeat Recluse and destroy his machines before fleeing to safety.

So, no, it doesn't invalidate the story, not in the slightest.

No it wouldn't. See the above example. Theres an entire world to invade here.
I can easily think of a TF for Praetorian sleeper agents, or those who want to buy into submission to Cole in exchange for power, or just because they want to watch the world that badly.

-Get a call from Marchand stating that the time has come to make a move. While the main Invasion will be fairly obvious, they want you to go around and give them a backdoor option should things go wrong on that front (which we know they do, due to us thwarting them in Apex/TM)
Fight Longbow and Vanguard forces to release captured Praetorian forces, establish a beachead and then hold out long enough for a Portal to be stabilised while holding off attacking Primal forces, before teaming up with reinforcements to make a sally to cause some havoc/destroy something important.

All it takes is a little creativity. Which seems to be lacking in the 'Well+Cole = Ebil lolzors!' story so far...which is a little sad.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Except thats not what I want of the concept, not without some character development and such. As it is, though, that is the one option forced on me by the meta-game mechanics we have at the moment, and with no other option. Which is pretty lame, frankly, given the ammont of choice we've been given for so long that its become par for the course with CityOf.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Yes they make it work from a massive group standpoint, but look at how they do it.

Player A doesn't go up to Player B and say "Yeah, I was the one who discovered Hero 1 became Honoree" it's taken that it did happen and some group found this out, and they themselves know of it.

BUT...none of them were the ones who did it themselves.

It doesn't work on a massive RP scale to go that route, since then EVERYONE was the first to discover and stop Honoree, if they so choose.

600 characters, and you think they all were contacted by Ramziel, and he was fooled everytime into thinking the well would be in this place for THAT hero/villain, even though it wasn't there for the previous 599?

The story arcs work for a small group of RPers, not massive everyone on the servers. I say 8 people, because that's the max team size (not counting anything that requires more than 8 people to accomplish).

Could maybe push the RP group to 16, if 8 play on one side of the fence and the other 8 play on the other side, and they intermingle.

Storyline just isn't setup to account for 600 heroes and villain player characters.

And to use your example, okay, my character succeeded in making the clones, where in my story arc, does it say some hero came in and stopped it? They didn't stop MY character.

Actually, it takes time and manpower too. If you want more pro-Tyrant content, its going to have to come at the expense of something else, 'cause its not like Paragon is swimming in resources.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

I was merely suggesting a way to move into the incarnate end game content without erasing the concept. Whether or not you like it, is really up to you.

Again, she had you bug a PPD precinct to properly predict their whereabouts. She had you stop the Resistance, but only because the Crusaders are outright NUTS. After that, she sends you to the warehouse where you're jumped by Resistance. Washington calls you and says "Hey, remember those guys you bugged? Yeah, they did the same warehouse thing you just did and died." She had 2 PPD officers sent to their deaths. She's a terrorist in the world of Praetoria, and instead of "defending herself" when you confront her she just sits there and threatens Washington (and also begs you not to listen to him).

And after the fact, White himself admitted that he would have.

Please don't make the assumption that I can't differentiate a totalitarian regime in a video game from an actual police force in real life.

If you had ANY shred of common sense you wouldn't have asked that question.

That is only an ending for those wishing to remain loyal to Cole. I wholeheartedly agree that if you decide Cole is a monster, then the other alternate outcomes are equally valid, no arguments there. My beef is simply with the one outcome.

This!!!!!


Despots do take on those who they believe can be trusted - historically it does happen, especially under times of duress. You're refusing to see my point that in one outcome of the Loyalist arcs it is not unreasonable to assume that my character (who may well be evil in their own right too) will quite gladly nail their colours to Cole's mast, and follow him as his leader. That may involve my character stomping on others or it may be that my character believes that you can't make an omlette without breaking heads, and works for the "greater good" (as they perceive it.) You might not like that I choose an independant path but that doesn't make it bad RP it makes it limited choice. I take on board that Cole is one of the most evil in game followed closely by Calvin Scott and Reichsmann and Lord Recluse but that in no way precludes characters wishing to work for him. This game often encourages you to be the bad guy and now suddenly we're meant to gasp "You Evil Monster" and turn away from him?

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Didn't make an assumption, I asked a question.

Not sure why folks feel the need to flame others who disagree with them.

You're not getting my point. Cole doesn't want your help. Once you get to a certain level of power, you are too dangerous to keep around. He barely has control of the Praetors as the high level hero arcs shows. He doesn't need another level 50 meta-human who may even pull power from the Well on his side. If you believe in Cole's ideals, then you can try to assume his mantle for yourself. But loyalty to him isn't welcome.

That's how I understand both the end of the Loyalist storyline (when you go to Primal Earth) as well as the rest of the story. I don't disagree with your desire, but I do disagree with your contention that the devs haven't sufficiently explained this in the story.

And Calvin Scott is a hero.

Then let me approach it differently: Why would my beliefs on police forces apply to my choices in the game? If the two were at all similar, Praetoria would be vastly different.

And I wasn't flaming you. You asked a very dumb (and if not dumb, then not applicable) question.

How is it everyone forgets it was Tyrant who made hostile acts against Statesman and Paragon before the Longbow ever showed up.

Now I could be forgetting something here...but let's see...

Maria Jenkins story arc came in at Issue 1. And yes, the original story arc is still in canon, and noted as happening in the new Maria Jenkins arc.

The Longbow came into action in what was it Issue 6 with City of Villains, or Issue 5, right before Issue 6.

Why did YOU assume that I was talking about a RL police force? Chief Interrogator Washington is a cop. And your character is a cop (a conscripted member of the PPD's powers division.)

It's not a dumb question either, you stated support for the responsibility character committing a summary execution without trial. You deemed Cleopatra a 'traitor' which is a legal conclusion that at that point in the story had not been established in a legally cognizable way, even given Praetoria's limited freedoms.

What issue was it where we started showing up to steal their tech?

Yeah, and aren't you given a mutually exclusive choice to kill either Cleo or Washington in that mission? It's not like either choice is exactly the moral high ground. It is at least credible that a well-meaning character who grew up in Praetoria would side with the authority figure when faced with that numbing choice -- out of reflex if for no other reason. Heck, Cleo just tried to kill the PC.

I gotta say, for all that Praetoria is a goatee universe, Loyalist Responsibility and Resistance Warden seem very similar, morally speaking. The whole point of the storyline is that there are no good options. There are only less bad options.

It makes for a great transition into Primal Earth content, because a character could reasonably decide to go Hero/Villain for any number of reasons. For my Dominator, she started out going to the Rogue Isles because she didn't trust that the Primal version of Marcus Cole was as upstanding as he's made out to be, and the purported individual freedom in the Rogue Isles appealed to her. From there, it was a slippery-slope descent from disillusionment into outright villainy.

Likewise, an authoritarian villain type could easily go to Paragon because he assumes that a more ordered society will be easier to twist and ultimately control. As Praetorians, our characters would view their world and ours differently than we do.

It isn't simply a matter of saying Loyalist = Villain and Resistance = Hero. Either could plausibly be either. Or neither.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build