Forcing content: Disproportionate Rewards


Ad Astra

 

Posted

Different tasks should get different rewards. A TF is not the same as a story arc. Why should their rewards be similar? If you normalize rewards, you'd be making the problem worse and not better.

There are folks that want to run arcs, and there's folks that want to run the ITF ten times a week. There's nothing you can do to make them change their minds. Why punish them for doing what they've chosen to do with their subscription time? They've weighed the rewards to their time spent and deemed it satisfactory enough to continue.

If you're having trouble finding teams to do what you want to do, perhaps you should alter your methods, rather than trying to alter everyone elses to fit yours.


Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.

 

Posted

Any TF produced in the last couple years will be miles ahead of, say, To Save a Thousand Worlds in terms of its variety (maps, objectives, if not necessarily enemies) and storytelling. They'll also be much shorter, which is nice for those of us who don't have six hours at a stretch to play City of. But that isn't the point I was trying to make.

The point is that the game should avoid, to the extent it's possible, directing people back to the same old content over and over again. The OP's seeming belief that players need to be actively encouraged to run the same arcs that've been in the game for five or six years is ridiculous. They should be directed toward the newer, shinier, more interesting stuff.

Obviously new content doesn't just fall from the sky, so repetition is inevitable, and the WST is a good way of getting folks to run a variety of things, rather than a particular TF over and over. But that doesn't mean that every last bit of content is worth funneling players toward (I for one will be taking the week off whenever Synapse is the WST.)

If you still really want to run Worldwide Red, bully for you; it hasn't gone anywhere. I don't see the virtue of asking people to run it over and over, or asking newer players to run it.


@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnstone View Post
If I play to have fun, that means investing in a character to make them the best that they can be. The better they are, the more fun I have.
Okay, you've established what is fun for YOU.

What you didn't do was take into account that different people find different things fun.

Far too many people come to the forums and state with absolute certainty that because THEY don't find something fun, no one else does either and it should be changed.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

I happen to be running the Harvey Maylor arc myself on my BS/DA scrapper right now, because I enjoy that particular arc. I couldn't give a crap less that something else will net me more rewards, because that something else isn't what I want to do.

Very seldom will I run something JUST because it gives me a reward I want. I don't really like the LGTF, so you know what I did? I skipped that week and did other stuff instead of running something I don't like just to get the reward from it.

So maybe my characters fell behind everyone else's as far as getting Incarnate stuff.

Who cares? It's not a race.

I don't know about you guys, but I still enjoy just playing the game. I'll occasionally hang out in Atlas Park Shockwaving Hellions all over the place, just because I can.

If the game isn't fun, it is feeling like you have to do stuff so you can keep up with everyone else that is making it not fun. Do what you want to do and let the rewards come as they will, and you'll find the game is suddenly fun again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Incarnate is endgame. Endgame is (slightly) harder. Harder = better rewards.

Forcing content.... hmmmm. Naw. I do what I want.


 

Posted

Sorry but the TF's don't become magically harder just because they are this weeks strike target.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer View Post
Especially since only the leader gets the story.
You can follow the story as well by clicking on the mission description icon in the navigation dialog. The problem is finding the time to pause and do so while everyone is running on to the next mission entrance.

And I'd just like to add that not everyone plays for the rewards, or to make my characters so awesome powerful that the challenges are mitigated. I play for the challenges. And I choose not to tweak out my characters with dozens of Set Bonuses because I like over coming adversity. My reward is the satisfaction I get from winning against the odds.


 

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Originally Posted by Indiramourning View Post
You can follow the story as well by clicking on the mission description icon in the navigation dialog. The problem is finding the time to pause and do so while everyone is running on to the next mission entrance.
The mission description doesn't provide any dialogue that leads up to the mission acceptance or the debriefing text. The first time I ran the Reichsman SF I'd lost track of the story by the end of the second mission and spent the rest of the SF with basically no idea what was going on.

TFs have the worst story telling mechanics in the game (and throw in the common tendency to speed-run to twist the narrative even more out of shape) which is one reason why I'm less than enthused by the fact that, at present, the Incarnate/Praetoria story is being continued entirely via TFs and Raids.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Okay, you've established what is fun for YOU.

What you didn't do was take into account that different people find different things fun.

Far too many people come to the forums and state with absolute certainty that because THEY don't find something fun, no one else does either.
I know, that's why I was posting in response to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee View Post
Play the game the way you want to and have fun. Don't worry about the rewards.
In no way was I saying that what I find fun is the only kind of fun you can have. I didn't even say anything about what I find un-fun (aside from only having the option to do a limited set of missions if I want the best rewards). In fact, I stated that I did enjoy the old story arcs, but didn't have the time to devote to running them anymore since their rewards aren't up to par anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. ... let the rewards come as they will
If no one is forcing me to do anything, then don't tell me how to play. I will chase the rewards and enjoy the benefits of them. I would just like more avenues to lead to those rewards. If I do Heroic content, I'd like a Heroic reward.


@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters

 

Posted

The Incarnate stuff is NEW.

You don't expect people to play NEW stuff? Yes, the TF's are old but the reward is great especially if you want to run a new character thru. I have a 50 I wanted to get started on his alpha - however Apex meant he was -8 to the bad guys.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Sorry but the TF's don't become magically harder just because they are this weeks strike target.
And you don't magically become more right by being rude.

That being said, I'm talking about the New Trials and Task Forces.

The WSF, the rewards are only marginally better and those rewards are only necessary to do the New Endgame Content.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash View Post
Different tasks should get different rewards. A TF is not the same as a story arc. Why should their rewards be similar? If you normalize rewards, you'd be making the problem worse and not better.

There are folks that want to run arcs, and there's folks that want to run the ITF ten times a week. There's nothing you can do to make them change their minds. Why punish them for doing what they've chosen to do with their subscription time? They've weighed the rewards to their time spent and deemed it satisfactory enough to continue.

If you're having trouble finding teams to do what you want to do, perhaps you should alter your methods, rather than trying to alter everyone elses to fit yours.
So forcing a player (for whatever reason besides just the OP's) to alter their way of playing to be able to get things done, in a manner they might not find enjoyable is perfectly acceptable. Yet it's not ok for them to try to alter others into maybe doing things in a manner they find fun?

Yeah that's not hypocritical at all.... And that's the problem the OP has if I'm reading this right, other peoples definitions of what's fun altering things for him. I don't really agree with all of the opinion but I really disagree with someone saying just alter your style and get over it.

Either way though a lot of the old content could use a revamp, as could the remaining core TF's. But the OP left one part of the equation out of the mix, I play story arcs not for the merits (that's what sister psyche is for, a TF I find fun as heck) But for the ending XP rewards. Well that and the story because I have yet to get bored of them unlike some, and it's a nice change of pace for when I max out my tips, already took care of the WTF, or can't find a different TF team.

Endless radios missions I find rather tedious honestly, usually only do them long enough to get my tips then move on to them and contacts. But hey to each their own, that's what I find fun, not about to tell someone else to run it my way, and if I can't find a team, oh well. =p

Only have one real exception to the rule, that's speed TF's. Single worst thing that's happened to coh is those and people who game the content fast as possible just to get some stupid piece of loot at the end. Sorry I don't find sitting at the door sitting on my butt while the tank suicides infernia on the LGTF very heroic or fun.

If the devs found a way to nuke them off the map I wouldn't shed a single tear for the whines that would result. Same as I didn't when merits got nerfed thanks to the endless speed katie crowd.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLancer View Post
I do not want higher rewards for older content because older content is horribly grindy, unfun, and the actual story is filled with filler and often not very well written. The tip missions have better mechanics and better stories than the 20 mission story arcs.
I disagree. Personally, I VASTLY prefer older content like the Vahzilok Plague, the Tsoo Shenanigans, World Wide Red, Division: Line, Oh Wretched Man, The Aeon Conspiracy, Time After Time and so on, and would pick those over the dreck that is contemporary game writing, such as Jenni Adair and Roy Cooling. I'm sure other people would disagree, but no matter which story arc you pick, story arc rewards are not up to the level of practically anything else.

Again.

I wonder if I should find it ironic that I find myself in practically the exact same situation now that I was seven years ago. Back before I1, all I ever wanted was to get missions from my contacts, do those missions, and in so doing progress through the levels. Back then, this made me a laughing stock because a level 33 mission reward consisted of 800 experience (a number that has been burned into my mind) and arc rewards were no more than double a standard mission's experience. We were expected, and indeed intended, to street-hunt large spawns and level up that way.

Some time later, instance debt was halved, mission rewards were increased significantly and mission difficulty settings made us all ecstatic to run missions like never before, and story arcs in particular for the AMAZING arc rewards, which I'm impressed with even to this day. And now we're right back to square one with missions and story arcs representing the very bottom of the barrel in terms of "point to do," with me left yelling about how much I want to run missions like a drunken hobo in a public park. I'm not sure if this is a case of cyclic history, but I hope that it is, because the cycle should eventually repeat and running missions and arc should eventually be made worth a crap once more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I really don't understand the complaints and have to agree with Bashful Banshee and Claws&Effects.

If you don't like a particular part of the game, then don't do it. Keep doing what you like to do and your characters will level, get merits, get IO drops, get influence, etc. They will get everything . . . eventually. The problem comes if you try to "keep up with the Joneses."

If the complaint is that you don't like to team, or run TFs, or hard content, I can understand that. But other people do. Not every Issue will appeal to everybody.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katten View Post
I guess you could say that... there are actually a couple of things I would want.

1.) No more WTF's. It has done bad things to the 50 population, I'm not sure how a better way to distribute notice of the well is, but something related difficulty would be more fitting (as it should respond directly to will to obtain it). That said, we have don't have a strong enough reason now to raise the difficulty, there should definitely be reward reflected on TF's where the difficulty is +2 or higher.
In this case instead of running a different TF every week, people will be running the easiest or the fastest TF, forever.


 

Posted

The only thing I ask for from my games is fun for the time spent. Which is why I have only 10 hours in Modern Warfare: Black Ops, and almost 7 years' time into CoH.

If anything, the speed runs of WSTs have made me appreciate the fun of CoH even more. If I don't like the speed, I can solo or dual-box an arc mission (or auto-complete if I don't like it) to my heart's content. Pun intended.

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonkat View Post
So forcing a player (for whatever reason besides just the OP's) to alter their way of playing to be able to get things done, in a manner they might not find enjoyable is perfectly acceptable. Yet it's not ok for them to try to alter others into maybe doing things in a manner they find fun?
That's not quite what he meant.

What I read was:

If 7 people on a team want to do something one way, and the 8th person wants to do it differently, it is not reasonable for the 8th person to expect the other 7 to do it their way.

In that situation, the best solution is for the 8th person to form a team of likeminded people so there isn't one person unhappy with how the team is being run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

The old content really needs a revamp. The new content is fantastic. Tip missions might have too much reward for too little effort.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Tanker View Post
The old content really needs a revamp. The new content is fantastic. Tip missions might have too much reward for too little effort.
This game is notorious for that. Creating new content and mechanisms and then letting it rot while chasing a new shiny.

Would prefer the devs did more things like revamping zones and TFs like Posi and RCS/RWZ. Also utilize more of the in-game items/minigames to make it feel more integrated (not silos of merits or this or threads of that...). Eg. how about a fedex mission into Siren's or Bloody Bay for a TF, it could even be inside the hospital of those zones.


 

Posted

Maybe increase the rewards on the old stuff but keep it deliberately below the new stuff?

The people who want to run the old stuff are probably going to anyway, so throwing them a bone can only be a good thing, but as long as it's below the standard I don't think your going to see people losing it and ignoring tips and the WSF. This solution isn't perfect but it'd alleviate the situation a bit at least.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
If 7 people on a team want to do something one way, and the 8th person wants to do it differently, it is not reasonable for the 8th person to expect the other 7 to do it their way.
Story of my life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonyPhoenix View Post
Maybe increase the rewards on the old stuff but keep it deliberately below the new stuff?
Personally, I would like to see old story arcs brought up to give equivalent rewards to tip missions. I'm fine with the WSTs giving better rewards, but the time/reward ratio for story arcs is horrid in comparison to tips and it doesn't feel right. I ran Harvey Maylor's arc this past week. It took me three days of play to finish it (and I had actually already ran a mission or two of it before this). Basically, if I had chosen to do tip missions (where I can pretty much choose what enemies I face and make things easier on me), I could have gotten more of a reward in 2/3 the time and not had to fight 2 EBs.


@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters

 

Posted

I agree that some of the older content does need updating. It has also been a while since they did any Reward Merit tweaking to them. Perhaps I am wrong but I have not heard anything about it.

My initial comment was poorly phrased perhaps. More likely it simply wasn't expanded enough for which I apologize. I'll attempt to do so now.

I like many others suffer badly from Altitis, creating something new on a whim only to see her neglected as a new idea comes along. While I don't have 148 Alts that I enjoy playing I do have a few. Not all of them can be Incarnates, I wouldn't even try. Not all of them will hit 50. Heck, a lot of them will be lucky to ever hit 30.

So far I have one hero with the Alpha slotted. That would be my Claws/Fire Brute. The only reason she is the one is because that is who I was playing at the time Incarnates came along. I've joined more teams since hitting 50 with her then I have in a long time. Not just WSTs and TFs but just teams running around the city trying to save Paragon from a wide variety of issues ranging from Hellions in Perez to the spooky eyeballs in the Shard.

Will my Brute continue along the Incarnate path? Maybe. She is lots of fun and look forward to seeing what the Trials will be like. If they are no fun then I won't do them regardless of the rewards.

I can appreciate your wanting to make your hero stronger and that does take time. If you are only able to play for a limited amount of time each week I can understand that as well. The problem then becomes that it is not neccessarily the rewards that are limiting your abilty to become stronger.

If it is simply matter of wanting the shiny enhancements then spend an hour or so learning how to work the Market. There are guides a plenty in that section. It is so easy. If I can do it anyone can.

I got here late to the game, not quite four years now. I missed out on the days when we fought crime just for the sake of fighting it.

I did spend some time hooked on TFs, running Katies endlessly. That probably explains why I didn't run a TF for such a long time. Well one of the reasons anyways.

What I did learn after I stopped doing that was the reward (for me anyways) was to be a hero.

That is where I am coming from. I hope it makes some sense.

Play the game you want. Don't worry about the rewards because they do come.


Enjoy your day please.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
I really don't understand the complaints and have to agree with Bashful Banshee and Claws&Effects.

If you don't like a particular part of the game, then don't do it. Keep doing what you like to do and your characters will level, get merits, get IO drops, get influence, etc. They will get everything . . . eventually. The problem comes if you try to "keep up with the Joneses."

If the complaint is that you don't like to team, or run TFs, or hard content, I can understand that. But other people do. Not every Issue will appeal to everybody.
The problem is, while they can get everything everyone else can, this seems to be more of a soloist vs team complaint.

This is a solo friendly MMO, but it's still an MMO. So thinking that rewards won't come faster to those who team, is just silly.

And I say this as someone who solos and teams, and admits to mostly teaming (but that's because I've always prefere the TFs, even before rewards, to almost all the story arcs).


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee View Post
So far I have one hero with the Alpha slotted. That would be my Claws/Fire Brute. The only reason she is the one is because that is who I was playing at the time Incarnates came along.
This is pretty much where I stand. I have an alpha slotted on two characters so far - one was the Axe/Shield Brute I had been playing when I19 rolled around, and the other is the SS/Inv Brute remake of my 50 MA/Inv Scrapper that I focused on to such an extent I played nothing else from 1 to 50. I've yet to play a level 50 anything since, and frankly, I don't feel like I'm missing much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.