Praetorians...They're kinda boring
By
AquaJAWS,
Posted on: 2011-02-28 16:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I have to say, I didn't really like Praetoria. I just did it so I could have a brute character for my hero, since brutes are my favorite archetype. If the next issues are going to be all about Praetoria, I won't need them.
I think what CoX needs is to stop making new villain groups for a bit and expand the ones we have. Heck, have the 5th Column absorb the Council, there's enough redundancy between the two and the 5th have always been the more interesting.
Quote:
I would love some Norse myth missions. Hell, I'd like some more myth missions in general. Sure, Statesman and Lord Recluse are tied to Zeus and Tartarus, but so far the only real Greco-Roman entities we've seen are Ganymede and Cupid. |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I will admit, that is one thing I congratulate the devs on.
They avoided making a Dictator into a cheap Castro, Stalin, or Hitler fashion knock off and instead made him look like he's auditioning for The Candyman Can. And while I to some extent I disagree with Ketch's "The with a gun versus God" syndrome, it does hold merit. Part of the problem is that the best ways to make the Guy with Gun feel like a credible threat to god can be seen in games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta*, which can't be supported by the game's engine. *I should note that while Dual Pistols attempted to do this, it didn't quite work out since even Dante will sometimes just stand and repeatedly tap the triggers than twirl them around a thousand times before firing once. Now another fun thing that might be worthwhile for incarnate trials is delving into Norse myth. Think about it, what if Odin saw all these people striving to become god-like warriors? He might be pretty interested and even be willing to help them earn more power (especially if he saw the Coming Storm and Ragnarok as the same thing) by opening up "The Challenges of Valhalla". This would be great for opening up solo/small teamed in Incarnate trials/TFs as well as large trials/events/TFs (afterall, during Ragnarok you'll never know when you will be fighting as many or as one, so it's best just to be prepared). to make things really interesting, since these would all be glorified training exercises, TFs could also be open to failure without reward without any real consequence on the world around you. |
Instead of having Tyrant as a clean looking dictator, why not make him somewhat right? Like there is some method to what he is doing. One of the reasons villains like Magneto and Doctor Doom are so loved is that they aren't mustache-twirling evil. Magneto is fighting for his people, but takes it to the extreme and Doctor Doom wants to control the world because he feels he is the only one who can save it, and he may actually be right.
Quote:
They tried that, sort of, with the Loyalist Responsibility storyline. It just showed that not all of Tyrant's supporters are evil, some of them are just deluded. Tyrant himself is still revealed as a megalomaniacal mustache-twirler at the end.|
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
Instead of having Tyrant as a clean looking dictator, why not make him somewhat right? Like there is some method to what he is doing. One of the reasons villains like Magneto and Doctor Doom are so loved is that they aren't mustache-twirling evil. Magneto is fighting for his people, but takes it to the extreme and Doctor Doom wants to control the world because he feels he is the only one who can save it, and he may actually be right.
|
They're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that someone who is trying to wipe out all super-powered beings in another dimension that never did anything to him until he started it is somehow "right." Well, except for Malta.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Well, if they added more Hamidon and Devouring Earth stuff in Praetoria, they could easily salvage Cole from mustache land.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They tried that, sort of, with the Loyalist Responsibility storyline. It just showed that not all of Tyrant's supporters are evil, some of them are just deluded. Tyrant himself is still revealed as a megalomaniacal mustache-twirler at the end.
|
Quote:
It still won't explain why he's trying to wipe us off the face of the earth. Did he ask us for help with his Hamidon problem and "we" said no? Does he want to eliminate us to give his people an uber-Hamidonless place to live? He could have asked. The population of Praetorian Earth is way smaller than ours, I'm sure they could fit, and if they couldn't I'm sure Portal Corp has access to lots of nice, primitive, relatively uninhabited and thus Hamidon-free dimensions. Did Statesman imply he was involved in an inappropriate relationship with his granddaughter?|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Well, if they added more Hamidon and Devouring Earth stuff in Praetoria, they could easily salvage Cole from mustache land.
|
Any of the above would pretty much have to be a Nemesis automaton, and frankly I much prefer the "he's just a power-hungry megalomaniac" explanation.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
It wouldn't - nothing can spin Tyrant as anything other than a villain, because he's powerful enough to be able to stop the Hamidon single handed, which combined with the sonic fence would mean he could keep Praetoria safe without needing to carry out crimes agaisnt humanity 24/7.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Well, if they added more Hamidon and Devouring Earth stuff in Praetoria, they could easily salvage Cole from mustache land.
|
By making Tyrant so powerful, and showing how effective the sonic barrier is, the devs have undermined any attempt at justfying his crimes.
If there were no Seers, no Enriche, no torture chambers, no slaughter houses and no secret prisons, no Praetors, no experiments on living humans, no disappearances, no propaganda and no repression, there'd still an incredibly powerful guy who could solo the Hamidon, along with an incredibly effective sonic fence to protect the city.
None of Tyrant's crimes are things he had to do - he could have chosen to serve the people as a hero, like on Primal Earth - but inseated, he chose to take an evil path, and rule rather than serve.
Tyrant's crimes aren't connected to the threat of the Devouring Earth - he's already shown he can defeat the Hamidon and protect the city - his crimes all come from his fear of human beings and their free will.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Well, the Devouring Earth should be seen as a starting point to work from to answer these. Perhaps Cole is being truthful that Primal Earth "struck first" in some way and he considers us a threat to the stability of his world and its struggle to survive the Devouring Earth. He may fear that we'll destroy everything he's built so that Hamidon can feast on mankind again and thus has decided that he must destroy us before that happens.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It still won't explain why he's trying to wipe us off the face of the earth. Did he ask us for help with his Hamidon problem and "we" said no? Does he want to eliminate us to give his people an uber-Hamidonless place to live? He could have asked. The population of Praetorian Earth is way smaller than ours, I'm sure they could fit, and if they couldn't I'm sure Portal Corp has access to lots of nice, primitive, relatively uninhabited and thus Hamidon-free dimensions. Did Statesman imply he was involved in an inappropriate relationship with his granddaughter?
Any of the above would pretty much have to be a Nemesis automaton, and frankly I much prefer the "he's just a power-hungry megalomaniac" explanation. |
Edit: Did anyone hear a winkie go "Wahnk wahnk wahnk wahnk wahnk" and Charlie Brown reply, "Yes Ma'am"?
Quote:
Well on the note of Tyrant, the BIGGEST reason why he can't be a hero, nor can his praetors, is because the devs REFUSED TO RETCON OUT THE OLD PRAETORIAN ARCS. If they had only said "yes, it's a retcon" just like other things they did, it all could have been so much easier.|
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
Instead of having Tyrant as a clean looking dictator, why not make him somewhat right? Like there is some method to what he is doing. One of the reasons villains like Magneto and Doctor Doom are so loved is that they aren't mustache-twirling evil. Magneto is fighting for his people, but takes it to the extreme and Doctor Doom wants to control the world because he feels he is the only one who can save it, and he may actually be right.
|
Also, on the note of Doctor Doom, I think I remember reading somewhere that he actually is right, that in some stories, he HAS taken over the world and DID make it a better place.
He just sadly realized that victory was boring and was a person who liked wanting more than having. (Though unlike most cases of favoring want over having, he still tended to take good care of what he had.)
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
Quote:
And how would that explain his crimes in Praetoria?|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Well, the Devouring Earth should be seen as a starting point to work from to answer these. Perhaps Cole is being truthful that Primal Earth "struck first" in some way and he considers us a threat to the stability of his world and its struggle to survive the Devouring Earth. He may fear that we'll destroy everything he's built so that Hamidon can feast on mankind again and thus has decided that he must destroy us before that happens.
|
His powers and the sonic fence are all that are needed to protect people - murdering and torturing and brainwashing people doesn't make Praetoria any safer - it makes it less safe - hes' reducing the population, diving society and causing a civil war - and all for totally un-needed reasons.
If Tyrant wants to fight the Devouring Earth, why is he spending so much time and resources on murdering, torturing brainwahsing and imprisoning the people he's meant to be protecting?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Look what got the Devouring Earth all riled up... an atomic war? Then of course there's this crazy Resistance that threatens to destabilize his little oasis in the world of man-eating monsters by blowing up hospitals and gassing neighborhoods. Does the Resistance even have a plan to deal with the Devouring Earth after they've removed Cole? I don't think they've even thought that far. Calvin Scott clearly hasn't, as he's gone off the deep end into Cuckoo Cloud Land.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And how would that explain his crimes in Praetoria?
His powers and the sonic fence are all that are needed to protect people - murdering and torturing and brainwashing people doesn't make Praetoria any safer - it makes it less safe - hes' reducing the population, diving society and causing a civil war - and all for totally un-needed reasons. If Tyrant wants to fight the Devouring Earth, why is he spending so much time and resources on murdering, torturing brainwahsing and imprisoning the people he's meant to be protecting? |
Marcus Cole, in the Praetorian world, has seen the worst of what people can do and its consequences. Clearly, he doesn't want it to happen again.
You see, it's this kind of depth that makes a good villain like Magneto or Doctor Doom.
Quote:
Tyrant created the Resistance - if he wasn't an evil dictator, people wouldn't need to take up arms to reclaim their liberty.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Look what got the Devouring Earth all riled up... an atomic war? Then of course there's this crazy Resistance that threatens to destabilize his little oasis in the world of man-eating monsters by blowing up hospitals and gassing neighborhoods. Does the Resistance even have a plan to deal with the Devouring Earth after they've removed Cole? I don't think they've even thought that far.
|
Tyrant's "protection" of the people has caused a civil war, and he's spending a vast amount of time and resources trying to defeat other humans instead of the Devouring Earth.
There shouldn't be any need to fight the man who can solo the Hamidon - if Tyrant wasn't a crazed supervaillin, most of the resistance would be fighting the DE instead.
Quote:
| Marcus Cole, in the Praetorian world, has seen the worst of what people can do and its consequences. Clearly, he doesn't want it to happen again. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
He wouldn't need to fight other humans if the Resistance didn't cause the kind of problems it did. They use terrorist tactics.
I seem to recall from the bios that the Resistance was Calvin Scott's thing because his wife may have or haven't been taken by Mother Mayhem by force. Otherwise, Praetoria hardly seems "evil" when everyone's needs are provided for and anyone is free to pursue their scholarly interests. Taking that view from the surface, there hardly seems reason to start a Resistance.
But then you're just going to enter another one of your circular arguments and I'm not interested in that, and I'll save you the time as well.
Quote:
In the end, as a libertarian, I find Praetoria to be a repugnant concept, but I despise Scott's methods as well. Nevertheless, the writer in me likes to get into a character's head and find their motivations. Cole has great potential to be something beyond a two-dimensional mustache twirler. I doubt he sees himself as the villain, unlike a certain spider fetishest that does everything for the EVULZ. He believes himself to be doing the right thing. I have given you his possible reasonings, so you can either take it or leave it.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
 |
Quote:
Well yeah, except for brutally and immediately putting down anyone who disagreed with him. So there wasn't any crime because jaywalking was punishable by death. Latveria has been depicted as a pretty nice place to live, if you didn't mind the total lack of personal freedom.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Also, on the note of Doctor Doom, I think I remember reading somewhere that he actually is right, that in some stories, he HAS taken over the world and DID make it a better place.
He just sadly realized that victory was boring and was a person who liked wanting more than having. (Though unlike most cases of favoring want over having, he still tended to take good care of what he had.) |
Tyrant isn't nearly as cool as DOOM anyway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If Tyrant wants to fight the Devouring Earth, why is he spending so much time and resources on murdering, torturing brainwahsing and imprisoning the people he's meant to be protecting?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scythus
He wouldn't need to fight other humans if the Resistance didn't cause the kind of problems it did. They use terrorist tactics.
I seem to recall from the bios that the Resistance was Calvin Scott's thing because his wife may have or haven't been taken by Mother Mayhem by force. Otherwise, Praetoria hardly seems "evil" when everyone's needs are provided for and anyone is free to pursue their scholarly interests. Taking that view from the surface, there hardly seems reason to start a Resistance. But then you're just going to enter another one of your circular arguments and I'm not interested in that, and I'll save you the time as well. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
It occurs to me that now I've played through Ramiel's arc more times that is comfortable, we now know that the Well can take over Incarnates who chose the short path to power.
If Cole isn't Cole and is actually the Well taking over his body, I think it might want to make me fight him a bit more. I'd be able to express some of my dissatisfaction with the Well physically. 
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
Not to mention...we've been beating Tyrant and all of the Praetorian guard since before the RWZ and maybe even the loss of the 5th Column (let alone the return). Now, they're just more reflective.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The fact that Reichsman did it two years ago? Or that Hro'Dtohz was doing it for two years before that?
I'm not saying I'm against the invasion. But Tyrant needs a bigger schtick than that. Nay, Tyrant deserves a bigger schtick than that. |
Now, I like Praetoria. Its fun. The stories are pretty damn good. Love some of the new mission mechanics, however I agree with some people who think some are overused because they can (ambushes!!). And I'm all for more end-game stuff to do and the incarnate trials.
I would also like to see some time spent going back through SOME (not the emphasis, I don't want ambushes on EVERY MISSION) of the current 1-50 content and redoing some of the arcs or adding some arcs using some of these new mission mechanics. Maybe even fleshing out some of these underused groups like warriors, tsoo, knives, etc. Maybe a rework of the shard and its stories and TFs. Afterall, the game was about the journey for 6.5 years, not the destination, so lets not forget about that journey.
Also hope that the incarnate stuff involves more than just the Praetorians. How about some super high-level shard stuff, RWZ, or even more involving Statesman and LR?
Quote:
Well, if we're expanding on existing villain groups, the Praetorians (who had several faction, each of which was either citizen models with auras or one minion, one lieutenant and one boss all with the same model) are a good place to start. It's just a pity they decided that was enough and it's time to make ALL THE CONTENT be about them now.
|
Originally Posted by That_Ninja
I think what CoX needs is to stop making new villain groups for a bit and expand the ones we have. Heck, have the 5th Column absorb the Council, there's enough redundancy between the two and the 5th have always been the more interesting.
|
Character index
Quote:
That might have made sense if beating him up had been the beginning of the Incarnate path. "Yo Well, I beat up your champion, and by extension, you. Now make me awesome!" As it is, the Incarnate content is making it abundantly clear we wouldn't stand a chance against him, and by extension the Well, on our own. Making a deal with the devil is a much safer bet if you know you can kick the devil's butt if need be, incredibly stupid if you can't.
|
Originally Posted by Dante
If Cole isn't Cole and is actually the Well taking over his body, I think it might want to make me fight him a bit more. I'd be able to express some of my dissatisfaction with the Well physically.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I just want to know what Cole's been up to while we've been making a mess of his town.
Praetor White or someone tells us that Cole is "off saving the world" when we start out in Praetoria.
Some Loyalists meet Cole after they leave Praetoria, beyond the portal, in Primal Earth.
I can't even remember if he shows up in Maria Jenkins' arc anymore or if that's his clone.
So what has he been doing all this time? What is he doing if he's not really "off saving the world"? That's the part of the story I want to know more about. Is he the Hamidon's puppet, like I tend to believe, or the Well's? Or is he controlling both of them? Why isn't he leading the invasion himself? Etc.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
It's now a Praetorian Guard or something like that. Anyway, it's no longer Tyrant.
|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I can't even remember if he shows up in Maria Jenkins' arc anymore or if that's his clone.
|
Tyrant is dead and the Loyalist machine just keeps marching in the direction he last pointed it in, fueled by cult of personality.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Quote:
A place with no freedom is totally evil - that's why there's a resistance - the fighters of the resistance aren't risking their lives for Calvin Scott's wife.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I seem to recall from the bios that the Resistance was Calvin Scott's thing because his wife may have or haven't been taken by Mother Mayhem by force. Otherwise, Praetoria hardly seems "evil" when everyone's needs are provided for and anyone is free to pursue their scholarly interests. Taking that view from the surface, there hardly seems reason to start a Resistance.
|
A real utopia wouldn't have an armed uprising in it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Underlined and bolded!!|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
So what has he been doing all this time? What is he doing if he's not really "off saving the world"? That's the part of the story I want to know more about. Is he the Hamidon's puppet, like I tend to believe, or the Well's? Or is he controlling both of them? Why isn't he leading the invasion himself? Etc.
|
I've been wondering about this since I read Tyrant's bio on the Going Rogue homepage. It says the Tyrant defeated Hamidon but it also states "...but he had also learned much more from his brief joining of minds." Perhaps Cole really didn't win and Hamidon has just found an easier way to dispose of humanity. After all, they're locked up behind their sonic fences (remind anyone of a Zoo?), mostly docile (Resistance excluded of course) and now he's found the perfect use for his pets... Throwing them against Primal. Cannon fodder anyone?
Don't know that the Devs would actually do this, but I would like the twist.
Quote:
What a strange definition of "totally evil". But if that's what you really think then I understand why your posts about morality and Praetoria are so funny.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A place with no freedom is totally evil - that's why there's a resistance - the fighters of the resistance aren't risking their lives for Calvin Scott's wife.
A real utopia wouldn't have an armed uprising in it. |
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
i have to agree with the fact that they are bringing the praetorians in too slow
i made like 3 toons in praetoria, and i have to say the first 1-2 times through, it was quite interesting, but once you get past the story praetoria is quite lackluster and feels like a jailhouse for lowbie toons since they cant go further than PD while non praetorians can go wherever the heck they want
ive honestly enjoyed the shadow shard more than praetoria, and i honestly would rather fight rularuu too because it is more exotic and rularuu is like 100 ft tall
didnt they also say that cimerora would be expanded at some point as well? but we havent seen anything new to that place except those extremely short arcs which dont really expand the zone much