Mr. Squid's big ol' "agressive support" theory.

Before I start I just want to say that everything below is my personal design theory. I'm not trying to say that the devs need to implement my theory now or the game will surely fail, or that some of the other games I mention are in any way superior to City of Heroes. And if you think my theory is a load of crap, feel free to call me out on it.

It's pretty obvious that the support classes are considered the keystones of any good team in City of Heroes. You almost never hear something like "STF forming! NEED SCRAPPERS PLEASE. PST." Now that's fine! It stands as a testament to the class balance in City of Heroes that support characters lack the raw firepower to survive on their own (most of the time) but are capable of greatly enabling the survivability and damage output of said damage based classes, while damage based characters can get along fine by themselves most of the time but are (mostly) incapable of surmounting the games bigger challenges without a support class giving them a boost. It's a wonderful symbiotic system that allows characters to solo but encourages teaming.

And yet, I find support classes woefully dreary to play. Now granted, I don't have nearly as much experience with support classes as I do with damage based classes, but every time I did take a crack at playing a defender or controller or corruptor I never really felt like I was doing much. I only ever leveled one support character to 50, an Earth/Sonic Controller, but the entire time was a dull, dreary slog. I would get on teams, hit people with shields every few minutes, drop tar patches and liquefy patches when need be, and throw out other debuffs as they came. The problem was that I never really felt like I was doing anything, or contributing in any meaningful way. Yeah I would see the little shield auras appear around my allies and see the little debuff icons float up over enemies, but there was no real feedback, no immediate response to my actions that said "YOU ARE HELPING THE TEAM, GOOD JOB!" I just stood in the back and did my little magic tricks while the blasters and scrappers downed the foes and moved the team forward.

Now at this point it might just be easy to say "Well it's obvious you just don't like support characters!". And that might be a perfectly valid response, some people just aren't geared towards the support roles. Except that in almost every other game I play I LOVE playing support classes! When I play Dungeons and Dragons 4E I love playing my artificer and throwing out everything from debuffs to robotic pets. When I participate in NERF battles I love being the guy who stands in the back with the big gun and acts defensive while everyone else goes charging in. When I play (a certain other game that will go unnamed due to the forum rules about other videogames, but I will say that is a class based online PC shooter with nine classes and a very distinctive and humorous art style), I love playing the Medic and healing my team and activating invulnerability. So why is that?

Well the common thread I noticed running through all those above mentioned games is that the support roles still get to act aggressively, and receive just as much feedback about their support efforts as the damage dealing classes. Let's take Dungeons and Dragons 4E for an example. The way almost all support powers in D&D 4E work is nearly identical to the way straight up damage powers work. You target a foe, do damage, and then perform some other effect such as healing a party member, or debuffing the enemy's defense. Yeah you're not doing as much damage as say, a Rogue, but you still know you are contributing to the end goal of reducing the enemy's hit points to zero. Now support powers in City of Heroes don't work that way. Just like in Dungeons and Dragons, the end goal of any encounter is to reduce the enemy's hit points to zero, but support classes rarely get to actively participate in that goal. Their powers almost always target other players, or target enemies but do no damage. There's no immediate feedback, no orange text flying up over people's heads to tell you what you just did! You just have to take the game's word for it that, yes, you are aiding the team.

This notion of feedback is incredibly important too. Feedback is crucial in any good game, since it lets the player know that they are having an affect on the world around them. Let's take that previously mentioned unnamed PC shooter game. When you heal someone in that game not only do you see a beam of healing energy connecting you and your target, but you also see the target's current health, which rapidly increases as you heal them, until they are overhealed to half again their maximum health. There's another class in that game which can throw jars of a vaguely defined and somewhat dubious substance at foes in order to debuff them. Not only are the affected foes tainted yellow, but any hit on them displays the words "MINI CRIT!" above their heads, along with a big red damage total (which is in a bigger font than the normal damage totals), and also plays a unique hit noise. No matter what I do in that game, I know exactly what the effects are. Now let's go back to City of Heroes for a moment. Let's say I'm playing my aforementioned Earth/Sonic controller and I use Sonic Siphon on an enemy. What happens? Well a little bolt of sonic energy zoops out, hit the enemy and then...what? Nothing really. I just have to take the games word for it that I actually did something.

So what can be done about this? Well perhaps the easiest way to make support classes feel tougher is to give them more feedback. When I use Sonic Siphon on an enemy why not have some orange numbers fly up over their head that say "-30% RES!", and perhaps change the font color of any other damage done to that foe, be it by me or by my allies to a darker shade of orange. That way I know that my power had an effect!

Frankly though, that's the only solution I really find feasible. Any other attempt at increasing the agressiveness of support classes would require a massive reworking of their classes and powersets, and that's way too much to do just because...well...just because I say so. But just as sort of a thought experiment, how would an agressive support class or powerset in City of Heroes work? Well here's one idea:

Telepathy (the name doesn't really matter. You could call it Derpa-herping for all it matters)
Available as: Primary for Defenders, Secondary for Corruptors

Tier 1: Telepathic Shock: Ranged Single Target Click. Recharge: 30 Seconds(ish)
-Does minor psionic damage to the target, and casts any stored telepathic charges (more on those in a moment) on the target.

Tier 2: Aura of Calm: Self Toggle. Recharge: Pretty much instant
-Creates an aura around you that slightly boosts the regeneration rate of you and anyone else near you as well as occasionally ticks a small healing effect. Additionally, for every 30 seconds this power is active, you gain Telepathic Charge: Damage, an auto power that stacks up to five times. When Telepathic Shock or Telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and do extra damage to the target. More charges equals more damage.

Tier 3: Torrent of Lethargy: Ranged AoE Anchor Toggle. Recharge: 20 Seconds(ish)
-Creates an aura around a targeted enemy that slightly lowers the damage of that enemy and any enemy near them (like by 15-20%). Additionally, for every 30 seconds this power is active you gain Telepathic Charge: Resistance, an auto power that stacks up to five times. When Telepathic shock or Telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and the target's resistance is debuffed by 10% for each charge.

Tier 4: Aura of Vigor: Self Toggle. Recharge: Pretty much instant
-Creates an aura around you that slightly boosts the recovery rate of you and anyone else near you. In addition, for every 30 seconds this power is active you gain Telepathic Charge: Endurance, an auto power that stacks up to five times. When telepathic shock or telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and the target's endurance is drained by 15% for each charge.

Tier 5: Telepathic Flood: PBAoE click. Recharge: Around 5 minutes.
-When activated this power expends every single one of your Telepathic Charges. In exchange though, it heals any allies within a large radius, the amount healed increasing by the number of Charges expended, and ressurects any fallen allies at half health and endurance.

Tier 6: Torrent of Doubt: Ranged AoE Anchor Toggle. Recharge: 20 Seconds(ish)
-Creates an aura around a targeted enemy that slightly lowers that accuracy of that enemy and any enemy near them. Additionally, for every 30 seconds this power is active you gain Telepathic Charge: Defense, an auto power that stacks up to five times. When Telepathic shock or Telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and the target's defense is debuffed by 7% for each charge used.

Tier 7: Aura of Bliss: Self Toggle. Recharge: Pretty much instant
-Creates an aura around you that slightly boosts the recharge rate and movement speed of you and anyone else near you. In addition, for every 30 seconds this power is active you gain Telepathic Charge: Recharge, an Auto power that stacks up to five times. When telepathic shock or telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and the target's recharge rate and movement speed is debuffed by 10% for each charge used.

Tier 8: Torrent of Sorrow: Ranged AoE Anchor Toggle. Recharge: 20 Seconds(ish)
-Creates an aura around a targeted enemy that slightly lowers the mezz resistance of that enemy and any enemy near them. Additionally, for every 30 seconds this power is active you gain Telepathic Charge: Special, an auto power that stacks up to five times. When Telepathic shock or Telepathic storm is used, the charges are expended, and the secondary effects of all the target's power are debuffed by 15% for each charge used.

Tier 9: Telepathic Storm: Ranged Targeted AoE Click. Recharge: Five Minutes(ish)
-Does minor psionic damage to the targets, and casts any stored telepathic charges on the targets.

From what I've read from your post, you've just been playing the wrong support sets for you.

Try a dark/dark defender. You attack constantly, and each attack debuffs the enemies chance to hit the team. Plus, the damage isn't that bad.

For aggressive controller play--try fire/kin, fire/rad, almost anything fire/, I guess. Illusion/rad and illusion/cold are good aggressive sets too.

Rad/sonic defenders are really great debuffers and damage dealers.


On the other hand, if I'm misunderstanding what you're looking for, and you're instead looking for big flashy "Look, I just contributed" effects whenever you debuff/heal....well, you can play a dominator. Or color your powers to be more obvious. And ignore certain powersets like sonic and ice that have little graphical effect on the enemy.

Great suggestions, Stone Daemon. But I've always felt like I contribute a heck of a lot with my Ice/Storm controller (for example), as the mobs slog along in slow motion, attacking less frequently and getting tossed about my lightening bolts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Daemon And ignore certain powersets like sonic and ice that have little graphical effect on the enemy.

Little graphical effect? Multiple mobs in blocks of Ice provide quite a graphically pleasing sight.

I'm gonna agree with the others. My support characters are quite aggressive, indeed.

I'm with the others as well - all my "support" characters throw blasts or damaging controls.

Between getting my own orange numbers, I am also aware enough of the game mechanics to welcome seeing those little shields circling my opponents.

And I took this awareness of how control and debuff works to DnD 4E - it makes me that much more situationally aware of when & how to use them for my controller or leader characters in that game.

I thought this was going to be about angry GMs.

Too big, won't read, summary?

I'd have to say your issue is probably the sets that you're playing. I don't know what other sets you've tried, but Sonic (and likewise forcefield) is a very passive set, with the few truly offensive powers being on rather long recharges.

I would suggest playing a Dark/Sonic defender (or sonic/dark corruptor).

Dark is an offensive support set in it's playstyle. There's nothing Ally targeted in the entire set. It's also fairly control heavy, When you cast power like Fearsome Stare there's an immediate indication that it DID something (via mobs shaking in their boots). When you fire off Howling Twilight there's immediate proof that it worked (allies come back to life, or even if no one was defeated, mobs get damaged, debuffed and stunned). Twilight Grasp gives you big green numbers.

Sonic blast lets you provide the team with a very desirable debuff while dealing damage, which seems to be a part of what you're after. Contributing to the defeat of a mob, while providing a benefit to your team at the same time.

Sure you're still not going to get all THAT much game feedback from it, but on some level you've just got to know you're doing a good job.

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

Since you mentioned "I love playing my artificer and throwing out everything from debuffs to robotic pets" I'd (perhaps unsurprisingly) recommend a Mastermind. You get to have your orange numbers from the henchmen, and support the team from your secondary.

While I'd not recommend my Bots/FF combination to you, I reckon you'd get along quite nicely with a */Pain Mastermind. You get to see the healing numbers fly, and later on you get a solid "game changing" buff in Painbringer.

Also, as many have said, */Dark Miasma is a very active powerset, and would pair well with a Mastermind. My wife runs a Bots/Dark MM and sometimes I wish I had that combo too

Just my take on things - like you I frequently run out of steam playing Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors and don't get them past their 20's. Same with Dominators, though I have hope for a lowbie Plant/Earth I'm running at the moment.

I generally don't play support characters, but to be honest, that's been my experience when teaming with a lot of them. I'm generally an observant person, so I know that that Kinetics Defender on the team really is making a difference. The fights are easier, they take less time and we're always in less danger. But hell if I know WHAT that Defender does. I see coloured lights and fights are easier, but other than their very presence, I have no idea what that Defender does.

A Scrapper on the team is easy to read. Said Scrapper will walk up to something, swing at it, and that that thing can usually be trusted to die. I know what that person is doing from a casual glance at them in action. You may make the argument that seeing enemies encased in stone might be the same, but there are so many different kinds of stone, all with different effects, that it's not quite as obvious to tell what is happening unless you know the specific effects. I know this person is doing SOMETHING to those enemies, but WHAT that person is doing isn't always as obvious, especially with something like Gravity Control or Fire Control.

Sometimes, I wish we only had one type of status effect that we could stack with itself as we do with damage, for an eventual kill via control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

My Plant/Emp it is VERY obvious what her controls are doing. The buffs, not so much, that tends to be the way with defensive buffs / team buffs anyway I find. But you will get a lot of "This team is awesome" comments and buffs and debuffs are what's causing that chiefly, even if it's hard to quantify exactly why you are steamrollering +3s.

If you want a Support character where it's obvious they're doing lots of stuff I'd recommend a Plant/Storm controller or a Fire/Dark Corruptor. No-one is going to miss your powers with those combos.

Dark/Sonic defenders are superb too, but it may be harder for the scrapper to comprehend the reason the AV they are fighting appears to be melting and why exactly their orange numbers are so large (bless 'em)

I'm going to pitch in with folks that at least part of the problem sounds like the sets you've tried. CoH's support sets have an awful lot of variety in how they play, a lot more variety (IMO) than most truly offensive characters do.*

Another thing is a matter of playstyle philosophy. It sounds like you have played according to a philosophy where when you play a support character, you really concentrate on support and not much else. I know from their forum history that some of the folks who have replied here very much don't subscribe to that. I know I don't. I play a lot of Dark Miasma characters, and I use my debuffs and whatnot frequently on a team, but I do so by inserting their casts into my blast attack chain. I'm always blasting something. I don't want to play a pure support character, I just want to play a character who happens to be able to support others. Probably the best middle ground for this at the AT granularity is Corruptor, with Dark Miasma and Rad Emission probably being poster children powersets for this kind of play. On a Controller, you are probably going to prefer one of the control sets that actually deal meaningful damage, with Fire Control being pretty well known, but Plant and Mind (at least for ST damage) being also pretty decent.

It's not clear to me that something like a Mastermind will really please you, since Masterminds can be viewed as being passive in their own way. The Mastermind often does not do much to foes themselves, which may result in a feel like one is playing a support character to their own pets.

As an aside, though I understand why you appreciate it based on your post above, I really dislike that a lot of support (buff) powers in D&D 4e require a successful hit roll on an enemy. I would much prefer more of them to be unconditional.

* Some of what I consider the largest variety in how melee offensive sets play is found among the original Tanker powersets, which now have a more clearly defined role as "offensive" in their incarnation for the Brute AT. These sets have what has historically been a greater access to things like control powers which can really change the feel in how a given attack set makes a character play. Again, IMO.

Huh, and I'd actually say COH is far more aggressive with it's support characters than many other games. (Heck, Defenders have the full array of blaster powers, albeit at reduced efficiency, at their disposal!)

Herpa-Derping powerset sounds awesome.

I'm a little surprised that you felt like you weren't "doing anything" with an Earth controller. Floaty numbers aside, the set is practically obnoxious with visual effects, be it imprisoning everyone in stone, sending stalagmites bursting upwards and throwing everyone into a stun, summoning giant volcanic vents and making everyone fall on their butts or even the less spectacular gas & quicksand effects. It doesn't kick out a lot of orange digits but I never felt as though it wasn't providing positive feedback that it's making a difference.

Of course, my Earth 'troller is paired with /Storm which only doubles the visual spectacle.

I play all my support characters aggressively (ask my Fire/Rad superteam).

My FF/Archery defender is aggressive as hell and built like a tank.

My Grav/Kin is built to take punishment.

Let's face it. I'm a fricking tank. No matter what class I take, I tank. Hell, I've even tanked LR on one of my blasters.

Either I'm just such a poor player that I always revert to tank-think, or I'm just such a spectacular tank that I can tank with anything...

Probably the former.

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