Most *Versatile* Powersets/Builds
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-21 15:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Although I don't have an Ill character at all, I have to agree that it has a high level of versatility. I've several times been on TFs where a tank left/DCed/whatever, and an Ill controller had to handle tanking tougher spawns and eventually the AV with Phantom Army. Relatively few other "support" characters can keep a random team alive fighting the tougher AVs.
I do have lvl 50 rad/rad and cold/sonic defenders, both pretty much maxed out, and I'm still on the fence which is more versatile. There are times on the cold/sonic when I whiff on debuffs, or the AV runs around out of them, or I get mezzed or killed that I wish for the "fire and forget" nature of the rad debuffs and the high levels of self protection with Rad Infection. I could also take the Psi epic pool on the rad/rad, since I didn't need to build for soft cap defense, which gives versatility with Mass Hypnosis, great at shutting down ambushes or nosy nearby spawns. I don't consider the Mace PPP pool to be as versatile, but I wanted Scorpion Shield.
There are times on the rad/rad when the healing Nictus on an ITF or Ghost Widows heals are slowing or stalling a team that I wish for Benumb, or I'm mezzed or not in the area or not alive, or I'm trying to help on a Masters run that I think how handy the Cold shields are.
Overall, I'd say radiation is better before heavy IO investment (heck, its darned good with SOs, which I think is one reason its very popular on PUGs), but cold edges it out slightly with a high recharge, high defense, IO build. They are close enough in versatility, though, and different enough in playstyle that I like going back and forth between them. 
I also have a purpled out Warshade, which has a lot of versatility, but IMHO its not as useful versatility to the team as what support characters can bring. Its great versatility for me as a player, lots of options (when I die, I can just about always think of something I could have done if I'd thought fast enough to avoid it. . .) It has ability to pinch-hit tank, like an Ill's PA, and do dps, but I've been on more than one TF with her that stalled on final AVs because we didn't have any competent buffer/debuffers, so I really like a character that can provide that.
And I think a WS brings more versatility then a PB, if for no other reason then the ability to stealth/recall in the many missions where thats handy. A PB can't take Recall Friend, which is a significant strike against it in my book. Assemble the Team works for some situations, but not so well for things like grabbing the teammate returning from the hospital in a long map for example, or getting that errant blaster corpse back for Vengeance. I think people underestimate what moving a team around can do to increase speed in some scenarios, compared to 10% more damage, say.
i have a question. in the realm of tankers, would one with the greatest versatility be one that could live through the widest number of enemy types? that is a kind of versatility. versatility within survivability.
I think you could make an argument for an set being the "most" versatile just by re-weighting what one considers a typical or relevant encounter to contain. "Can solo AVs," for example, makes a claim about the revelance of such an activity. In fact, since soloing AVs is a completely avoidable situation, I'm not sure it's all that relavant. It can be, but doesn't need to be.
With this knowledge you could basically argue that any set is the "most versatile" by just playing with the weight of the categories, or even inventing or deleting whole categories. Fire Control is the most versatile because its powerful mezzes combine with high damage, and damage is what is ultimately important anyway. Ice Control is the most versatile because its abilities tend to ignore boss level protection, and you can pick up damage from anywhere. Plant Control is the most versatile because it can switch hit between farms and regular content and rule both. And on and on. Essentially what we're measuring as "versatility" is at least 50% a guess at what typical game activities are relevant. What one person considers impressive and diverse another may find very one note. This is actually exactly how I feel about Illusion Control. I see why people like it, but "diverse" is a real stretch for me to accept, even if I see why people say that.
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I think we need to talk about debuffs. For example small as it is freezing rain does do damage. When it comes to it I can think of few powers on my main that dont do at least some damage while debuffing.|
Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
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Cold/Brawl - Defender.  |
On another note. I dont know I agree that all controller builds are low to average *only* on damage. Fire/storm in particular has very good damage (though not the only high damage combo), even with out imps. True it doesnt have indestructible damage sponges, and they do make a differences. I point this out because it seemed like some posts were pointing in the direction of saying controllers are superfluous because they dont bring damage.
The fire and illusion primaries do seem to be the best at dealing damage.
I'd say a mind/fire.
Good damage, solid control. Good for solo and teams.
It's viable in multiple aspects of this game including PvP(arena and zone)
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Stone Armor, hands down. That is, if you're only worried about surviving the enemy. If you'd like to do it without the offensive and mobility penalties, then Dark Armor is your best bet, as it provides a wide array of strong resists, layered defense, control auras, debuff resistance to all sorts of things, the best heal in the game, and it has to die twice for it to count.
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Originally Posted by Shisui
i have a question. in the realm of tankers, would one with the greatest versatility be one that could live through the widest number of enemy types? that is a kind of versatility. versatility within survivability.
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What's important to me for versatility is what situations the character is useful in. These include: AVs/GMs, ambushes, nasty mobs that require immediate elimination (sappers, etc), +4s, nasty mobs that take a while to kill (carnie bosses, elite bosses, etc). Situations I am not taking into account include: soloing AVs/GMs/pylons, PVP, farming, speeding up steamrolling teams. No harm in doing these things, but they're not problems that interest me.
Most versatile:
- Dark/sonic defender. I can keep an AV from hitting most of the time, and debuff its resist and regen enough to make the difference between progress and futility, and there's no way it's going to kill me twice in the time it takes my self-rez to recharge. My team is going to win, and the AV is not. Nasty mobs can be stunned on first contact, and global acc is somewhere around +64%, along with fully slotted Tactics, so defense isn't much protection. Ambushes can be feared, slept, or sent to the black hole as a last resort. I definitely sacrificed AoE damage in favor of every kind of control I could get my hands on (even Shockwave), plus maximum survivability via heal, defense, and debuff, but I still have a full single-target attack chain. Most things less than an EB will be stunned until dead, and EBs and greater probably just won't hit enough to matter. Not the fastest soloer, but can eventually plow through most anything.
- Illusion/empathy. Between buffing damage, recharge, and defense, crowd control, and keeping PA in reserve for trouble if it's an ambush mission, plus some damage of my own and of course heal/mezz protect/rez, I'd argue that it's more versatile than it sounds, if only on a team.
- Energy/energy blaster. Resilient self-healing self-rezzing extreme range damage dealer. Adds only damage to a team, but can do so fairly consistently under nearly any conditions she's had to face. Sacrificed all melee attacks for ranged survivability.
- Inv/axe tank. Built for psi resist and damage, makes a decent main tank, a fabulous off-tank. Sacrificed s/l defense, hit points for mobility, aoe damage, psi resist.
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A Stone tank running Granite/Rooted is the most unkillable character in the game true, but it's something of a one trick pony... supreme durability at the cost of mobility, recharge and damage.|
Originally Posted by Shisui
i have a question. in the realm of tankers, would one with the greatest versatility be one that could live through the widest number of enemy types? that is a kind of versatility. versatility within survivability.
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Invuln in my opinion has more versatility as it can approach Stone levels of durability without the negatives so it can contribute more aggro control and damage while still being more than durable enough to handle anything in the game.
Really all the tanker primaries have a niche that they excel in; and there's also some nice synergies with some primary/secondary combos. For the most versatile you'd really have to decide what you want out of the character. Even so, I don't think any tanker combo can be as versatile as an Ill/Rad 'troller... I love tankers, don't get me wrong but they're also more limited in their roles.
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Ok, so we all agree our own favorite is most versatile. Not that there is consensus on what this versatile is.
Any objective tests? Gauntlets? missions? A custom AE perhaps to test performance?
Dark Miasma is pretty versatile. It's got an aura stealth (with Terrorize protection, which is great for Hamidon raids), a multi-person Rez (that doubles as an AoE stun/rech debuff/regen debuff [a 500% regen debuff at that]), a Tohit/damage anchor debuff, Tar Patch ('nuff said), a MASSIVE cone Fear that has a substantial tohit debuff, a powerful AoE heal with a regen, damage and tohit debuff built in. All this and I haven't even mentioned Dark Servant, which has Chill of the Night (the same power that LT ranked CoT ghosts use to make your life miserable), it's own Twilight Grasp and Darkest Night, as well as a hold and a cone immob.
Put that all together and you have a powerset with a trick up its sleeve for just about every occasion.
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I'm not sure I would agree that everyone is voting their favorites. Some people are, some are asserting other powerset combinations that might be their favorite utilitarian but might not be their favorite overall (and some posters have said that directly).|
Originally Posted by _Zep_
Ok, so we all agree our own favorite is most versatile. Not that there is consensus on what this versatile is.
Any objective tests? Gauntlets? missions? A custom AE perhaps to test performance? |
I don't think this is something easily reduced to an objective test, and even if it is that isn't what I'm most interested in at the moment. I'm most interested in knowing how people define versatility, and by that definition whether they value it, and to what degree. I did not, nor have I ever, set out to make the most versatile blaster. I doubt I ever will. I tend to look for versatility in support characters more, but even there sometimes yes, sometimes not as much. My fire/kin is far less versatile than my Ill/Rad for example. My Earth/Emp, somewhere in the middle. So sometimes something about a powerset combo seems to suggest to me that the direction that character is going in is less about doing a few things as well as possible, and more about doing as many different things as possible. Why that sometimes happens, and sometimes doesn't, is interesting to me.
Put it another way. This happens in other contexts. When people make scrappers or tankers (or brutes or stalkers), there often seems to be two separate distinct thought processes. One says to take your strengths and maximize them to the best extent possible. If you're Invuln, you make sure you are absolutely indestructible to smash/lethal. Then you do the best you can everywhere else. The other thought process says to fill in your holes. You're already pretty tough to smash/lethal, so you buy as much elemental and especially psionic protection as you can get your hands on from the invetnion system.
You can try to balance these two approaches in a single build, but they are usually ultimately exclusive: doing one tends to preclude doing the other to some degree. Why we sometimes go one way and sometimes the other is itself a variation on the versatility question.
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I built an Energy Melee/Regeneration Stalker to get as much +health (well, to the cap, which isn't hard at all) and +regen as I could manage. He currently regenerates about 3.14% per second, just toggles and passives. I could get it up to 3.47% per second if I switched to Body Mastery instead of Soul Mastery. But I don't think it would make me feel any less squishy.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One says to take your strengths and maximize them to the best extent possible.
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This is the character that makes me wish Revive had a 15 second recharge. That said, I still do have fun playing him.
My Dark/Sonic/Leviathan Defender is my most versatile toon (Yes I trow fish). I think the build explains itself in terms of what it can provide on a team/solo play - I am missing a Numina's unique in health and LOTG recharge in Vengeance and her build will be complete. I am very happy with her build.
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@Deadboy
My Fire/Rad/Psi troller is my Jack of All Trade toon. Just by stepping into the fight, I've got a slow, a pulsing, proc'ing AoE hold, a pulsing, proc'ing AoE confuse, pulsing Psi damage AND pulsing Fire damage. And I haven't even clicked a single power yet.
Once I start clicking, I got an AoE heal (not awesome but it hits lots of targets), two solids toggles with -def, -to hit, -dam and -dam res. A perma-able slow with a solid amount of -regen. A decent AoE hold, another brutal AoE hold, a solid AoE stun, an AoE immob with -kb. An PBAoE team buff that brings all kinds of awesomeness. A AoE -percep that lets me manage the show, and an AoE KB patch that drives Freakshow tanks through the ceiling droptiles.
I can debuff the enemies that just killed my tank, lock down said enemies, turn the tank's corpse into a bomb, and then turn the corpse back into a tank. All while the enemies roast and choke at my very presence and my imps rip their ankles off.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
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Originally Posted by MaHaBone23
My Fire/Rad/Psi troller is my Jack of All Trade toon. Just by stepping into the fight, I've got a slow, a pulsing, proc'ing AoE hold, a pulsing, proc'ing AoE confuse, pulsing Psi damage AND pulsing Fire damage. And I haven't even clicked a single power yet.
Once I start clicking, I got an AoE heal (not awesome but it hits lots of targets), two solids toggles with -def, -to hit, -dam and -dam res. A perma-able slow with a solid amount of -regen. A decent AoE hold, another brutal AoE hold, a solid AoE stun, an AoE immob with -kb. An PBAoE team buff that brings all kinds of awesomeness. A AoE -percep that lets me manage the show, and an AoE KB patch that drives Freakshow tanks through the ceiling droptiles. I can debuff the enemies that just killed my tank, lock down said enemies, turn the tank's corpse into a bomb, and then turn the corpse back into a tank. All while the enemies roast and choke at my very presence and my imps rip their ankles off. |
^^^
This and the more of them you have, the better it gets.
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That's because you're not maximizing your strengths, like the quote said to do. You're applying additive boosts, when you should be applying multiplicative boosts.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I built an Energy Melee/Regeneration Stalker to get as much +health (well, to the cap, which isn't hard at all) and +regen as I could manage. He currently regenerates about 3.14% per second, just toggles and passives. I could get it up to 3.47% per second if I switched to Body Mastery instead of Soul Mastery. But I don't think it would make me feel any less squishy.
This is the character that makes me wish Revive had a 15 second recharge. That said, I still do have fun playing him. |
My MA/Regen scrapper got a LOT stronger when I switched her from a recharge and +health focused build to a Defense focused build. My heals aren't up quite as often and my regen isn't for quite as many HP per second, but everything goes a lot farther with a lot less damage actually landing.
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Regen is a little bit of a corner case, in that given the way heals and regen work, you could say defense and resistance are force multipliers for heals and regen, or you could say they are an attempt to cover up the burst damage and debuffing weaknesses of the set. Intrinsicly, virtually the only ways to cover Regen's weaknesses *also* multiply the strength of the set almost inevitably. That's not a common occurrence.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
That's because you're not maximizing your strengths, like the quote said to do. You're applying additive boosts, when you should be applying multiplicative boosts.
My MA/Regen scrapper got a LOT stronger when I switched her from a recharge and +health focused build to a Defense focused build. My heals aren't up quite as often and my regen isn't for quite as many HP per second, but everything goes a lot farther with a lot less damage actually landing. |
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Of the combination's I've played the most versatile ones were Grav/Storm/Primal, Ill/FF/Ice and Earth/Rad. My Bots/Dark MM doesn't quite make the cut here. Of the three above it comes down to a toss up, for me, between the Ill/FF and Earth/Rad, with the Earth/Rad having a slight edge.
One combination that I find intriguing and seem pretty versatile is Plant/Rad. Not having played one I can't vouch for it.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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My MA/SR is the only character I have that can effective both punch an enemy in the head *and* kick an enemy in the head while maintaining good DPS.
...
What?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Put it another way. This happens in other contexts. When people make scrappers or tankers (or brutes or stalkers), there often seems to be two separate distinct thought processes. One says to take your strengths and maximize them to the best extent possible. If you're Invuln, you make sure you are absolutely indestructible to smash/lethal. Then you do the best you can everywhere else. The other thought process says to fill in your holes. You're already pretty tough to smash/lethal, so you buy as much elemental and especially psionic protection as you can get your hands on from the invetnion system.
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I personally tend to build most of my alts for versatility in some degree, as well as for specialization. If I can't attain both in any appreciable amount through my efforts, then I'll typically make use of the multiple builds system to attain my goals. A fair example of this would be my "main" and forum namesake, Mystic Cross, an Invuln/Energy/Energy tanker. Her first build is to handle most situations with ease, and is very good "all-around" against virtually everything. In this build I use the Fighting/Speed/Leaping power pools. The rundown of highlights in the first build looks something like:
Resistances: 88% S/L, 32% F/C/E, 34% Neg., 31% Tox. ,46% Psi. (add 3% to all if I ever get the PvP resist unique)
Defence with saturated Invinc.: 42.4% to S/L/F/C/E/N (28.1% with 1 in range). 21.9% to psi and 12.5% positional. (+3% if I ever get the PvP defence unique)
3534 HP (capped) and 37HP/s regen with Dull Pain (2389/25 without).
Max End. is 119, Recovery is 3.21 end/s, 1.03 usage from toggles (1.56 with focused acc. running, but I've also got conserve power and 2 Perf. Shifter procs). I typically reserve FA for facing heavy -tohit enemies.
For slotted enhancement values, all attacks have ED-capped damage and 60-65% Acc/Endred/Rech, I've also got +53% Acc. from set bonuses and another +20% from FA so there are no troubles hitting anything of any level that I've found. Resistance toggles have Ed-capped resist and 60-70% Endred/Rech.
I went with the Spiritual alpha since she can use bonuses from (nearly) the entire radial tree (+rech, +stun, +heal, +jump and +tohit buff.) the only unused portion of spiritual radial paragon is slow movement. This also makes it so I actually use conserve power, plus all my attacks and toggles get Ed-capped recharge. add in an extra 33% global recharge from sets and then Hasten, which is dow for approx. 19 sec.
In this case, while not a particularly "versatile" power combo in the sense that it has a large amount of options to employ, it does what it's intended to do in nearly any situation and was built with the intent to increase the effectiveness of every available option as much as possible and somewhat equally. I was even able to add funcionality that wasn't previously there and in a very effective way, considering that the prior non-exhistant psi resists are now higher than resistances provided within the primary for F/C/E/N/T.
My 2nd build is similar, but softcapped with 1 in range of invincibility, 30% ranged def., capped S/L resist (woohoo another 2% resist!
) about 35% resist to F/C/E/N/Tox.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can try to balance these two approaches in a single build, but they are usually ultimately exclusive: doing one tends to preclude doing the other to some degree. Why we sometimes go one way and sometimes the other is itself a variation on the versatility question.
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playing to all of your strengths or abilities equally (or almost equally) is also versatile, even if you have only a small slew of abilities or strengths. True versatility comes not in the amount of abilities you have, but in your capacity to use those abilities to tackle a large number of different situations, at least, that's what I think of it.
My SS/FA Brute
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Well, that's why I said for 'diversity of powers.' For a more standard definition of versatility, I'm not so sure, but if you just want to make a big list of different effects you have at your disposal, Controllers probably beat everybody else hands-down.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
I don't agree that controllers in general win by default. Damage is very important and is the ultimate debuff.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I am pretty sure this discussion goes beyond just a list of powers, but also what kind of impact can you have across a wide variety of situations.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
Well, that's why I said for 'diversity of powers.' For a more standard definition of versatility, I'm not so sure, but if you just want to make a big list of different effects you have at your disposal, Controllers probably beat everybody else hands-down.
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I cannot think of anything that has more versatility than an Ill/Rad. Any other Rad controller can come close, but all will fall short because they lack PA. Sure, I can tank many enemies on my Fire/Rad/Earth, but PA is a better tanker. Earth can come close, Stoney can rival PA well enough that I would not necessarily quibble. Of course neither of them do invis (although Smoke can come close enough), confuse, or fear. All controls that can be used when some of the standard fare fails.
Certain Rad Emissions or Dark Miasma defenders and corruptors can come close as well. However, for sheer breadth of ability and use in just about every game situation, Ill/Rad is at the top of the list.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Granted, I don't have buffs for the team, and aside from slows in all my attacks, no real debuffs. I always wished Warshades had some debuff power, with Peacebringers getting some buff power. One of the reasons I started loving my WS, though, was that he got all the cool powers from every AT. My first character was a Tank, and I always loved when Blasters would Nova. I was jealous of Controller pets. Now, I have both! Along with controls, damage, and the ability to tank.
As far as the above quote, I have always built my Warshade for versatility. Taking powers I don't use often simply so I could have them when the time arose.
I would say, though, that I could easily see my Fortunata becoming more versatile mainly because it can hold, mass hold, damage, confuse and buff. I love the Epic AT's on both sides!
Anyway, I go both extremes. I have an MA/SR Scrapper built for one thing; run speed. Then I have my Warshade who even has a variety of IO sets in order to get a little bit of goodness all around, as opposed to just focusing on, say, recharge.
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