Most *Versatile* Powersets/Builds
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-21 15:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Agreed. -Regen doesn't help much against normal foes, but I maintain that -res certainly does. Things like -tohit, -dmg, and -rech help to keep team members alive long enough to do the damage required as well.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'd consider versatile to be throughout the entire game, not just the small % spent fighting an AV (which is why I mentioned but then ruled out my Dark/Sonic because she's wonderful against AVs and in a lot of the game but has some real brick walls too when she comes up against Nemmies, or tries soloing).
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
In fact Masterminds are probably better contenders overall than Controllers. AVs ignore a lot of a Controllers primary, but a Mastermind can bring damage, alpha taking/tanking, buffs or debuffs, Control and heals all in one package.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'd also love to see an AV beaten by a combination of debuffs and brawl and nothing else
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Defenders primaries can have -regen and -resist. I don't understand how this is relevant to my post. I was countering the posters statement about controllers being the default most versatile toons.
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Yep, just like defenders, corruptors et al. I still don't agree controllers are the most versatile 'default' AT.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I was only offering contention with the second sentence of your post. Controllers do damage, arguably less than other ATs, but still certainly more than "enough" when coupled with the vast array of tools they have.
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There is some good reason behind it, especially for illusion control. Personally, I think masterminds would be most versatile, but the thing they lack most is control.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I still don't agree controllers are the most versatile 'default' AT.
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That's what really puts the controllers (again, particularly illusion) ahead. All controllers do damage and with containment and epic pools, comparable damage to defenders and corruptors. Few defenders/corruptors can put out AoE control anywhere near what a controller can. Masterminds, on the other hand, can "control" aggro through provoke and the mitigation of bodyguard mode. The illusion controller has indestructible pets have taunting attacks.
It's a tough call. If it weren't for illusion, I'd say masterminds hands down.
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I know that alot of people don't care about this, but if you're talking about versatility in terms of what the AT can do in terms of ability and content, controllers have the upper hand on defenders and corruptors in terms of PvP. the AT have the most combo's that actually prosper in 2.0 as apposed to other ATs that only have 1 or 2 combo's that can still work were as controllers have a plethora of combinations which i think add's to the AT's overall versatility. just my 2 inf.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Yep, just like defenders, corruptors et al. I still don't agree controllers are the most versatile 'default' AT.
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
My thoughts on what I consider "versatile" out of my characters, in no specific order-
Crab - lacks control, but otherwise brings Brute/Scrapper survivability, team buffs (TT:x), -res and -def debuffs, massive aoes.
Fortunata - probably more versatile than Crab, due to controls, meleeing and similar aoe, lesser toughness, missing -Res.
Mind/Psi/Chill (or whatever has Sleet) Dom - In addition to the embarrassment of riches it has for controls, it's also a strong contributor to AV fights with Drain Psyche for -regen and Sleet for -res. Under effects of Domination, can hold 1 AV and confuse another. That's pretty sweet.
Earth/Cold Troller - really only lacks damage. Mine took Earth mastery but Fire would certainly cover that gap. With Sleet, most spawns are under control before I begin using controls.
Fire/Cold Corr - does NOT lack damage. I think the theme for this and previously mentioned troller is /Cold, it does offer a sound springboard for versatility.
You can't have a discussion on versatility without some mention of Traps. I'll submit my Traps/DP def for this.
I should mention my Ill/Rad, which is indeed versatile, but no more than those I mentioned above.
I place a lot of value on versatility. I may not define it the same way. To me, versatility means I can bring a character to any team and it can cover up a weakness as well as emphasize a team strength. With any of these "versative" characters I never feel compelled to say "let me switch" due to team composition. The above characters, more than any others I have (50+ played 50s, not counting the PLd alts) I'm confident can join any team and add something.
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Sounds like a project! |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'd also love to see an AV beaten by a combination of debuffs and brawl and nothing else
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In theory, it's not an unreasonable proposition. Put eight characters at or near the damage cap, floor the AV's regen, and stack -RES debuffs on it -- and even Brawl oughtta finish the job rather quickly.
I might have to respec my Controller into Assault and see if I can't put brawl-only AV team together.
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| I'd consider versatile to be throughout the entire game, not just the small % spent fighting an AV (which is why I mentioned but then ruled out my Dark/Sonic because she's wonderful against AVs and in a lot of the game but has some real brick walls too when she comes up against Nemmies, or tries soloing). |
Once you start getting into damage output, you're not really talking about versatility anymore, IMO, even though high damage output is obviously an asset. For good or ill, the team game here really doesn't place a very high premium on high, self-contained damage output. Mediocre damage can become high damage output once it's modified by buffs/debuffs and/or when multiplied by several team members.
Controllers may not be the most versatile AT even by my standard, but I'd say they're at worst tied for first place as a generic class. A particular build of another AT may be more generally capable or more (even much more) well-suited for a particular situation, but to me Controllers as an AT are the most swiss-army-knife-like, and that's precisely because they don't have powersets that are explicitly designed to deliver damage. Everyone can deliver damage. On my perhaps over-simplified black-and-white versatility checklist, damage is a given.
Almost by definition, my theory of versatility is primarily centered on end-game builds, because the lower levels generally require you to spend an inordinate amount of resources firming up your consistent performance rather than your situational capability. Here again the Controller wins, though, after a fashion, because Controllers' damage is folded into their control powers (and because the AT damage modifiers don't normalize until 20+, which means that Controllers at very low level ranges basically have double-Blaster-damage-scale attacks), allowing them to spend more resources diversifying their capabilities.
My theory of versatility also tends to focus perhaps inordinately on AV fights, because my premise almost requires that normal fights aren't terribly difficult (don't generally present teams with unusual or quirky situations), and especially not for high-level teams. This is where Cold Domination shines most; of all the debuff sets in the game, it has the most comprehensive anti-AV toolset -- stacking -RES, sizable -Regen, a nasty buff/debuff/control-effect debuff (this is key), and considerable defensive buffs for teammates to boot. Cold Dom isn't particularly good at dealing with large spawns of opponents, though, and so Controller Primary sets offer perhaps unusually high synergy with /Cold (or if you prefer, they cover Cold's arguable weak point better than most of the complementary sets available on the other relevant ATs).
There is, of course, another equally valid way of measuring versatility -- that is, breaking down the various playstyles by broad category and measuring relative performance in each. How well (quickly) can you solo? Hard targets? Large spawns? How well-suited are you to teaming (or if you prefer, how attractive do you think your build is to teams)?
By that measure, there are any number of builds that qualify as versatile, with the caveat that we're dealing with a (sometimes very heavy) dose of generalization. A build that normally cruises through solo missions at x8 will likely hit a wall at some point against a given NPC faction or target. A build that offers spectacular on-paper benefits to a team may well find that a given team doesn't need their specialty, whatever it may be (like, say, Force Fields, which is kinda a third wheel once the team has DEF covered).
I've very rarely seen any team turn away someone based on build, but it can be a little dull to feel like you're entirely superfluous, which is why I like the versatility-as-situational-capability standard better, flawed as it might be. The idea is always to have something (noticeably) significant to offer in as many situations as possible. The idea is to minimize the possibility of an insurmountable challenge, even if you can't complete that challenge as fast as another build can.
Sorry for rambling. Good topic.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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"Capable of doing many things competently"...
Should be pretty straightforward, just come up with a list of all the "things" characters are capable of, and see which powersets can do ALL of them, or do the most. The more detailed the list, the more accurate the result (ie "def debuff, res debuff, range debuff" vs. "debuff")
I would think. Need some criteria for "competently " though. Is applying a 3%def debuff consistently competent? Or is a 30% debuff every 3mins?
I suspect the most versatile AT would be Controllers, as the combination of control and support covers a significant portion of what is capable in this game. Controller-like ATs/powersets (Dark Miasma) will score well too. As the the single MOST versatile? I'm going to guess a /Thermal/ something.
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This! I totally agree. Though Ill/Rad or in are high on the versitile list I vote for rad/dark defender and corruptors. They offer a lot to a team and can solo relibly befor IOing, trouble is they take awhile to kill whole mobs by themselves but they can do it.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Having teamed with countless number of Ill/Rads over the years, my general opinion is that they are great soloists and mostly unremarkable teammates who I don't really trust to turn the tide. IF you happen to be fighting a very specific kind of end boss they are not bad to have around, but IMO Illusion Control is versatile in the way that Masterminds are. They are very self reliant and have some buffs for the team but I would never count on them for serious crowd control. |
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The version of Cold Domination I'm directly familiar with is the corruptor version. I believe all the other versions are the same in this regard though. Benumb's effects last for 30 seconds and the power has 120s recharge. You can theoretically make that perma on a target, but only with +300% recharge. Essentially, you need 200% global recharge to do that, on top of slotting. Without purples, I suppose that's possible, but not easy. The best spiritual you can get gives +45% recharge, and hasten will give +70% recharge if you can perma that. That leaves +85% recharge to go, of which 37.5% could be LotGs. Leaving 47.5% global recharge to acquire through other set bonuses. Without purples, not a small amount of recharge to get.|
Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
Disclaimer: Didn't read beyond this, don't know if it is addressed, didn't have time before needing to run out.
You can make Benumb permanent on a single target, without purples, using Spiritual. You can also do the same for Heatloss. Doing that also results in a 100% or higher Frostwork that you can (if you feel like being busier than Kinetics) maintain on 7 people. Oh, Cold, how I love you. |
Heat Loss also has 30s effects but 360s recharge. It cannot be made perma by a single player by any possible way in the game. At the recharge cap enforced by the game, even with a zone full of other players speed buffing you, you're limited to 500% total recharge (+400%) which would reduce Heat Loss recharge to 72 seconds.
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Necro is in my opinion the middle of the pack for MM primaries. I'd say it's Thugs>Bots>Necro>Demon>Ninja>Mercs With necro and demon trading places depending on situation. Minor aside, did you know /releasepets dissmisses henchmen and forces the death animation? Can be useful for Necro/ at times.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
However I'm not sure if I would call that combo highly versatile, or just weirdly powerful. Except for the things that are just nasty to masterminds in general, like massive AoE, I find it to be one of the tougher MM combos around. Bots certainly outdamages it, but it holds its own and with all the darkity dark dark stuff flying around in that combo it can be really hard to kill with anything short of an AV.
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As to it's versatility, if it isn't versatile what is? /Dark is like the swiss army knife of debuff sets, has heals and team buffs. I personally prefer it to traps, if only by a small ammount.
I guess the important question is, what is it that you look for when determining your opinion on a build or powersets diversity. Why is howling twilight, a rez/mez/debuff wierdly powerful instead of an incrediblly versitile tool that can be used in many different circumstances?
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Off the top of my head, Heat Loss' debuff has a 30-second duration. The recovery buff has a 90-second duration. So you can make yourself and (some of) your team basically indifferent to endurance on a permanent basis, but it'll take +300% recharge. (Doable but not exactly easy, as you noted with Benumb.)|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Heat Loss also has 30s effects but 360s recharge. It cannot be made perma by a single player by any possible way in the game. At the recharge cap enforced by the game, even with a zone full of other players speed buffing you, you're limited to 500% total recharge (+400%) which would reduce Heat Loss recharge to 72 seconds. |
The debuff portion of the power isn't anywhere near perm-able, certainly, but then it's not like you need it with all the -damage, -res, -regen, -special, and +DEF you can throw around otherwise. Benumb is really the jewel of the set, debuff-wise.
Honestly, I'm not sure what Yomo was trying to say about Heat Loss, so if this clarification is unnecessary, then I apologize.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Personally, I am a fan of Dark Miasma as a "Swiss-Army Knife" powerset. It has unusually strong control (even though it's soft control) for a debuff powerset, has a single-target hold that (even though it's very week among its peers) can help cover things that the fear and other debuffs cannot manage, has an anchor debuff, a heal of staggering heal/sec, and a stackable -resistance patch. It has a truly unique mass rez that doubles as an auto-hit debuff and stun. It has a true pet, again unusual for a non-control powerset, and can stack -damage on foes to a degree extremely unusual for one character.
There are certainly things that Dark is not good at, and there are things that other powersets do better than Dark does. Rad's -DR isn't stackable, but using it takes less activation time, and foes can never wander off of it, making Rad more compatible with things like soloing AVs or GMs. (I have soloed some zone GMs with a Dark/Psi Defender, but the times weren't very inspiring.) The Kinetics heal is comparable strength to TG, and often much easier to cast on allies, in no small part thanks to its shorter cast time. I find Dark an excellent soloist set, a valuable team set, and something that can use to manage and survive large numbers of incoming foes.
Dark Miasma and Rad Emission do rather different things, but have some overlap in key features that make them both have strong versatility IMO. I like both a lot, but of the two, I'm a bit addicted to Dark Miasma, and I've spend a lot of time pairing it with different Defender and Corruptor blast sets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If it was on Virtue, I'd sign up for this! |
Originally Posted by Obitus
I might have to respec my Controller into Assault and see if I can't put brawl-only AV team together.
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Cold/Brawl - Defender.
Siberian Spring-50 (Cold/Rad, Rad/Ice, Ice/Rad, Sh/Ice) - KGB SS8
Chernozem-50 (Ice/MM, Emp/Ice, MA/Regen) - KGB SS8
Wila-50 (Dark/Arch) - KGB SS8
Also: Krassivy Mechtayu-50 (Ill/Rad) - KGB SS8; Ms. Hypatia-50 (Dark/Regen)
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Likewise on virtue, Brawl/traps mastermind ready to help out. Unfortunately, my -res debuff (acid mortar) does damage, so I'm not sure the character qualifies.
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Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
If it was on Virtue, I'd sign up for this!
Cold/Brawl - Defender. |
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I would nominate Bane as a pretty versatile AT to have on your team because: |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And a meta question: how many people out there explicitly build for diversity? How many are willing to sacrifice damage or other things to explicitly add something that might only be situationally useful, but you just have to have that utility (for example, no respec of this character is ever going to lack the recall-mutation combination, ever, so long as it exists).
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1. With double maneuver, team defense buff is around 20%.
2. Team damage buff is 30% and Tactic for extra tohit if needed.
3. Resistance aoe debuff is 20% and ST debuff is up to 60% or rarely up to 80% if you put AH proc in Surveillance and other Rifle attacks from Soldier tree.
4. Controls: You can use a Hold, Immb and Web (-fly/-jump) if you want. Just the aoe web envelop from patron is pretty good on a team. Web Hold is on the slow side but it's available. Crowd control has cone knockdowns and Shatter has ST kd.
5. AoE damage is decent with just Venom Grenade and Crowd Control (you can get more if you feel the need)
6. Tanking is not great but survival is decent with soft-capped defense, mez protection (you will need at least one -kb).
7. You have very good burst damage so you can easily be the "stalker" of the team. You can scout easily too. No need to get Stealth from power tools.
8. You also have two decent pets in Reinforcement for being meatshields and some minor controls and damage.
To me, this is very versatile already. Very offensively versatile. You just put on the toggles and start killing. No need to put shields on teammates.
You can also make a 2nd build for Crab aoe if you want. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My Bots/Traps MM is far and away my most versatile toon. It provides decent damage, protects from mez, buffs defense, regen, to-hit, and damage . It can debuff to-hit, damage, regen, recharge, defense, res, speed, and fly. It has two pets that can stun and two stun powers of its own. it has a single target immobilize and with the patron pool it has an AoE immobilize. The poison trap has the choke/vomit effect and a hold proc. It is tough enough to tank all but the hardest enemies and with provoke it has a way to pull targets off of the squishier party members or pets.
The only times it starts to struggle is when the AI starts acting up or the area gets saturated with enemies and the pets start getting attacked consistently.
I will give a nod to PBs, mine changes what it does the most based on what the team needs, where as most of my other toons use the same tactics/powers with a few minor twists to mesh with the rest of the team.
Here is my cold/rad. Thanks to some help from the forums, was pretty easy to make with no purps/pvps. I'm sure given the investement, or more tweaking, benumb could be perma'd. Currently it is 1.5 seconds short of perma. And not using purples is by my own design for budget reasons. Someone using purples and/or pvp IOs could get a lot better numbers than this build I'm sure. I would also argue that sleet stops a lot more incoming damage than people think, just from running, slipping, and slows (which stack with snow storm).
I think cold is mroe versitile than rad. I know I would rather have a good cold than a good rad on my team.
Yes, stacking def on a lot of high end builds is over kill sometimes, but I think your forgetting that a lot of builds are only softcapped to 2-4 types, or one position, not everything, and the added defense can make them softcapped to everything, if not close to it.
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Test2: Level 50 Mutation Defender
Primary Power Set: Cold Domination
Secondary Power Set: Radiation Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Neutrino Bolt -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(3), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Achilles-DefDeb:20(27)
Level 2: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(27)
Level 4: Snow Storm -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 6: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29)
Level 8: X-Ray Beam -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(11), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(11), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(13), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(13)
Level 10: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx:50(A), Zephyr-ResKB:50(15), Ksmt-ToHit+:30(15)
Level 12: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:50(17), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), RedFtn-Def:50(19), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(21)
Level 14: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel:50(A), Zephyr-ResKB:50(50)
Level 16: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun:50(21), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx:20(23), Stpfy-Stun/Rng:50(23), Stpfy-KB%:40(25), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(25)
Level 18: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 20: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(29)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:50(31), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), RedFtn-Def:50(33), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(33)
Level 24: Benumb -- Acc-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(34), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 26: Sleet -- Achilles-ResDeb%:20(A), RechRdx-I:50(34), RechRdx-I:50(36), RechRdx-I:50(36)
Level 28: Cosmic Burst -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(39), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(39)
Level 32: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(43)
Level 35: Neutron Bomb -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Posi-Dmg/Rng:50(42), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(43)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(43)
Level 44: Web Cocoon -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold:19(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg:30(45), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold:30(45), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold:30(45)
Level 47: Summon Disruptor -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg:50(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(48), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(50), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets):50(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(46)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(46), P'Shift-End%:50(46)
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That's a good question, and I think the power that best illustrates the difference to me is confuse (confuses in general).|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
I guess the important question is, what is it that you look for when determining your opinion on a build or powersets diversity. Why is howling twilight, a rez/mez/debuff wierdly powerful instead of an incrediblly versitile tool that can be used in many different circumstances?
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In one sense, confuse is a very versatile effect, because of what it does. If you're primarily interested in disabling a critter or killing it, confuse tends to work in a wide range of situations. You can use it to cause one critter to help kill another, and confused critters don't attack you. It is, in many ways, the ultimate mez, and the devs in their infinite wisdom allowed confuses to last for a month when well slotted.
Does that mean that anything with a confuse power is automatically a versatile character? In my opinion, no, it doesn't. Confuses add some measure of flexibility to the character, but its still one single effect that does one single thing. That one thing has a lot of uses in theory, but that when judging characters its one really useful mez. It covers a tiny spoke on the usefulness wheel that encompasses buffs, heals, debuffs, damage, mez, and so forth. When I judge the versatility of a power, I'm sort of judging on a curve, comparing that power to the kinds of multi-purpose utility I see in other powers. Few powers do more than a few things in a few circumstances, which means even the most versatile power in existence is not going to do everything. Versatility is relative. But when I compare characters, I'm comparing what fully powered and slotted characters can do with a lot of different individually versatile powers, and characters have, of course, a far higher level of versatility than individual powers. So a versatile power does not (necessarily) a versatile character make.
Howling Twilight is an extremely long recharge mag 2 stun and debuff that does a little bit of damage that can also rez an entire team simultaneously. If no one is dead, its a mediocre power really. But considering its possibly the best ally rez in the game, the fact that it *also* has this other effect you can use whenever makes it, to me, a weirdly powerful power. Its more powerful than you'd expect a rez to be, and more utilitarian than you'd expect a long recharge debuff to be. Taken in combination with the rest of dark, it adds to dark's overall power. But on its own, its ability to deal with situations that don't involve team wipes is limited.
Conversely, a power like Oil Slick Arrow is much more generally useful. Its a good alpha strike attack, it can incapacitate a wide range of targets as a knockdown patch, and it can be converted into a seriously strong damage patch. You can use it at the beginning of fights, in the middle of fights, you can use it to deal with ambushes and adds, and it synergizes well with lots of other location powers, like res debuffs, slows, and other damage effects.
As a single power, I would say Oil Slick Arrow is much more versatile a tool than Howling Twilight. However, Howling Twilight is much more likely to reverse a wipe or near wipe than OSA. It can be, in the right circumstances, a game changer in as way that powers like EMP can be, but OSA usually cannot be. That makes Howling Twilight exceptional in some specific ways, but OSA more generally utilitarian in more various ways.
That's perhaps more a matter of perspective than anything else, but that's jut how I tend to view the power.
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Ever since they introduced alpha and shards, I rarely see lvl 50 Electricity controls. Mine is an Elec/Earth Dom and he is all melee (which has a big downside when my controls don't work and I have to stand too close to an AV that may kill me in one hit).
When I level him up, I've teamed with at least one other Electricity control, and I've always thought two or more patches of Static Field is pretty darn "versatile". You use it to open the battle, use it to drain end, use it to slow some and use it to stop ambushes. The problem is that it's only mag 3 and it has an accuracy check.
I don't know the makeup of LRSF heroes' mez protection. I only know Numina casts Clear Mind sometimes. I wonder if several Static Field can achieve something similar to a perma Mind sleep? If you put two of them, the game will check for sleep quite often. I can see the problem that the initial patch will aggro them. 
Is Electricity Control versatile enough? It does lack hard controls in a way that it comes out a bit too slow (Synapse's confuse needs time to jump for example) and Jolting is still a soft control.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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There were a few powersets that I thought had the highest chance of coming up in this thread, and Cold Domination was one of them. I certainly think its a very powerful set, and I've always liked it in general. When the LRSF first came out at +5 and people were suggesting that without temps or Shivans it was likely impossible I proposed an eight player team of four /rad corruptors and four /cold corruptors, bucking the initial trend of just proposing eight rads. In my opinion, four of each gives you a far stronger team than eight of either.|
Originally Posted by theheat
I think cold is more versitile than rad.
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I'm not sure I'm convinced its more versatile than rad, although I think you can make the case both ways. It is making me want to go back and play my Ice/Cold corruptor, though.
I'm a little bit surprised, and also pleased, that controllers are not the overwhelming dominant proposed archetype. Dominators, Corruptors, VEATs, Khelds, Defenders, and Masterminds all seem to be making legitimate claims to high versatility. I'm not sure I would agree in all cases that they have the *highest* versatility, but I wouldn't argue with any of them being highly versatile in general.
It seems that the average definition of versatility tends to include at least three things:
1. A way to buff team mates in general
2. A way to improve the survivability of the team, either with foe debuffs, ally mitigation buffs, control, or all three
3. Something that supports multiple playstyles.
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The debuff is 30 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Heat Loss also has 30s effects but 360s recharge.
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The buff is 90 seconds.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...sBuff_Defender
I was referring to the buff, to clarify.
Quote:
Hm. In the end, a forcefielder who can stop most attacks from landing and a dominator who can lock out almost all incoming damage may have different ways of achieving what they do, but the effect is the same in the end. A damage buff for the team or a debuff that makes an enemy take more damage have a similar end result. Obviously the values on the attributes would change parity, but the end result of such very different roads can be remarkably similar.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
....
It seems that the average definition of versatility tends to include at least three things: 1. A way to buff team mates in general 2. A way to improve the survivability of the team, either with foe debuffs, ally mitigation buffs, control, or all three 3. Something that supports multiple playstyles. |
The game throws roadblocks and detours in some situations: a controller's holds may be as good as a high defense, until it runs against a enemy that can't be controlled. High defense becomes all but weak vs. cascading failure or high tohit. A good measure of versatility is the number of different approaches a single character can take, and how effective it is at taking them when a situation makes standard tactics ineffective. That and how many situations exist where the going tactic is invalidated.
Quote:
My confusion stems from the fact you said "You can make Benumb permanent on a single target, without purples, using Spiritual. You can also do the same for Heatloss." I assumed you were talking about the foe effects on the target. Also, Benumb and Heat Loss were being compared to Rad's debuffs at the time, not its buffs. In terms of being good ally buffs separate from being good foe debuffs, they can be made perma. Although I'm still not sure I would call anything that needs 400% total recharge (+300%) "easy" since that's a mere 100% recharge from the recharge cap.
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Originally Posted by YoumuKonpaku
The debuff is 30 seconds.
The buff is 90 seconds. http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...sBuff_Defender I was referring to the buff, to clarify. |
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Implicitly, that's how I myself personally define versatility. Given all the different situations the game can throw at us, combined with all the different situations our team mates can throw at us, how many different tools do we have to effectively deal with all of those different situations.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Hm. In the end, a forcefielder who can stop most attacks from landing and a dominator who can lock out almost all incoming damage may have different ways of achieving what they do, but the effect is the same in the end. A damage buff for the team or a debuff that makes an enemy take more damage have a similar end result. Obviously the values on the attributes would change parity, but the end result of such very different roads can be remarkably similar.
The game throws roadblocks and detours in some situations: a controller's holds may be as good as a high defense, until it runs against a enemy that can't be controlled. High defense becomes all but weak vs. cascading failure or high tohit. A good measure of versatility is the number of different approaches a single character can take, and how effective it is at taking them when a situation makes standard tactics ineffective. That and how many situations exist where the going tactic is invalidated. |
My Ill/Rad was the first of my alts that spent a significant percentage of her leveling on pugs. Versatility was not just useful, but practically mandatory back then. Its where I first grew to appreciate how many different ways she had to deal with often highly suboptimal situations.
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Arcanaville, like your original post, I would agree that my Illusion/Rad is my most versitile character. I have yet to run into a situation where the Illusion/Rad isn't able to handle what needs to be done. Because of Phantom Army, Ill/Rad can handle attacks that no other build can handle -- except Hami, and that was cheating by the Devs. None of my characters work so well solo or with ANY team, small, large teams that are damage-heavy, control-heavy or debuff-heavy. It is not just the individual powers . . . it is how they work together.
Furthermore, I look at not just a level 50, fully IO'ed out character, but at the experience of leveling up the character. Illusion/Radiation Controllers are amazingly versitile for the entire life of the character. The toggle debuffs mean that the debuff can be continually applied (until a teammate kills the anchor, which happens often). The most valueable powers in both the primary and secondary come earlier than most sets . . . By level 26, you can have most of the best stuff.
I'm up to 20-something level 50 characters, with the largest number being Controllers. Some of them become very powerful in upper levels, but aren't so strong in lower levels . . . such as */Kin and */Cold. Both are very powerful secondaries once you get the last power or two, but they are not as outstanding leveling to 38. Plus, both have been made somewhat less awesome by the Alpha slot . . . Endurance isn't nearly as significant an issue for many characters now that they can slot the Cardiac Alpha Boost. One of the best parts of both Kinetics and Cold are their ability to refill the blue bar for teammates -- still needed, but not as badly at it used to be.
There are some other issues with Illusion/Kinetics: No Resistance or Defense Debuffs to help Phantom Army hit harder or more often. The siphon buff powers force you near melee . . . where Phantasm will sometimes knock your target away. And it lacks a heal unless you are near a foe. Many aspects of Kinetics are so good that these problems are offset, but they are still there. Ill/Rad doesn't have some of the limitations that Ill/Kin does.
Trick Arrow is a fun set . . . but it has some subtantial limits. No healing or buffing, low ToHitDebuff and low -Regen are the biggest problems.
As for Ill/Cold, it is great for taking down tough foes. I consider it very close to my Ill/Rad, but the single-target debuffs, the ally-only shields, lack of a self-heal, lack of +Recharge reduce its overall versatility. The shields are wonderful on teammates who are not softcapped, but provide little benefit to already-maxed out characters. A fully IO'ed out Ill/Cold is very powerful, but leveling up this combo is not nearly as impressive before level 38. Not getting Sleet until 35 makes it tough.
Warshades are wonderful on teams where there are lots of foes and dead bodies around. They can Blast-scrap-tank, with a limited amount of controlling. Peacebringers can Blast-scrap-tank with a limited amount of healing, but are more self-sufficient and less team oriented -- Peacebringers and Warshades can do a lot of things, but don't bring as much versitility to a team as an Ill/Rad, which can Blast-control-defend-tank.
I would say that Mind is less versitile than Illusion. The lack of an invulnerable pet to draw aggro means that Mind has trouble dealing solo with really tough foes. Illusion get Phantom Army at 18 . . . with Deceive, it is able to take out foes, given enough time, in safety.
I have played a lot of characters, and have yet to find anything with the versatility of Illusion/Rad. Ill/Cold is close and is better at some things, but not quite as versitile. My Ill/Rad is easily the fastest at doing Tip Missions. He soloed through the Incarnate mission like it was nothing -- and deceiving Rikti Guardians to get stacked AM is pretty nice. In a recent All Controller STF, 3 Ill/Rads handled the tanking duties of all the AVs. He always contributes to every team. He can fill in holes in teams like no other character.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control