Most *Versatile* Powersets/Builds
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-21 15:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Khelds and Veats bridge gaps between ATs and then just as I would with them, would say any mix of powersets that can duct tape a team dynamic despite missing so called "needed ATs or powers". TF started bye!
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Having a bias for redside, my most versatile is my Merc/Dark/Mace MM. Only thing she really lacks is burst damage. While I'm not claiming to solo TFs, it isn't uncommon to go through entire TFs without resummoning any merc pets. Fluffy of course is a different matter. She also has the uncommon utility powers of Team Fly and Team Teleport.
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I've found that while masterminds tend to be highly versatile, they tend, on average and in the incarnations I've played, to have two significant vulnerabilities that my Ill/Rad does not have:|
Originally Posted by ImpulseKing
Having a bias for redside, my most versatile is my Merc/Dark/Mace MM. Only thing she really lacks is burst damage.
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1. They tend to be vulnerable to AoE damage. In situations with a lot of AoE, you can easily find all your pets vaporizing faster than you can keep them alive unless you have a huge amount of AoE defense (Bots/FF, for example, tends to be less vulnerable, but not completely invulnerable). Two of the three sources of aggro control in Ill/Rad are totally indestructible: PA and Spooky.
2. They tend to be vulnerable to high order burst damage, such as from AVs. The little pets in particular are AV cannon fodder. That makes it tricky for most masterminds to control AV aggro without significant help.
Really strong MMs can cover for these weaknesses of course, but they tend to be pits in the armor Ill/Rad doesn't have. They have other strengths that Ill/Rad doesn't have, of course, but those two tend to hurt the overall versatility of MMs in my mind, even given their other advantages.
Which is not to say they aren't highly versatile archetypes in general. And Bots in particular, being essentially completely ranged, can in practice neutralize a lot of the issues with aggro and burst damage by staying at range. My experience with Mercs is much more limited, so I can't say with first hand experience what the top end performance of Merc MMs is.
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Bots/ff/medicine/leadership/mace can easily take on AV's. Softcapped defenses, good resists, three sources of external healing at all times. (2 protector bots and the mastermind) This includes repair, a full heal.
Having had experience with both a permanent phantom army illusion controller and a bots mastermind, The phantom army is indeed untouchable, but has its draw backs. Illusion is single target, even if it's capable of dispersed single target. As it becomes more spread out, it also becomes less effective as it heals back should targets not die fast enough. The controller has little control over targets for the phantom army, so there's no way to maximize which targets are eliminated. Likewise, between re-summons a controller is vulnerable to aggro as the new army has to gain enemy attention anew, attention that can be set squarely on the summoner for the past set of PA. (Especially if the phantasm is not cooperating.) A mastermind may have to cope with pet death, but pets can be preserved well enough to keep attention away from their boss at all times.
I play a number of characters, and can say that in most circumstances having controllable, aoe dealing bots are superior to the phantom army. Illusion is by far superior at misdirection and control, but has some issues with pet reliability given AI and pets' timed lifespan.
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"Not terribly impressive, for a MM set" is my experience. Their survivablity is lackluster for an MM set, and a lot of their utility is tied up in long-cooldown powers that the AI simply cannot make effective use of, and the inability to keep them at range the way you can bots makes it hard to keep them alive, particularly the medic (who is a tier 1, instead of tier 2 like with bots). The tier 2 pets are pretty much useless except as bodyguard fodder, I feel.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My experience with Mercs is much more limited, so I can't say with first hand experience what the top end performance of Merc MMs is.
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I've been maintaining for a while the biggest issue with the Mercs set is it looks like their powers were designed assuming a certain recharge. The pet fixes a while back kind of conflict with that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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The biggest problem I see with Masterminds is inspirations - they can't realistically benefit from reds, they can't realistically use purples or oranges or greens to keep their pets alive, they can't really use yellows to get past enemy defense. A MM using an insp should really pass the effect of that insp along to all their pets.
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Ummm...as the leaders/masters/bosses etc. of their pets, masterminds can drop inspirations on their pets 'inspiring' their flunkies. This ability is tremendously helpful when fighting long fights or against tough AV's.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
The biggest problem I see with Masterminds is inspirations - they can't realistically benefit from reds, they can't realistically use purples or oranges or greens to keep their pets alive, they can't really use yellows to get past enemy defense. A MM using an insp should really pass the effect of that insp along to all their pets.
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The ability to actually give the pets orders is a significant advantage masterminds have over controllers in general. Illusion partially mitigates that by having two pets that can be cast into a fight, the PA and the Spooky. But its no substitute for having direct control over all your pets.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Bots/ff/medicine/leadership/mace can easily take on AV's. Softcapped defenses, good resists, three sources of external healing at all times. (2 protector bots and the mastermind) This includes repair, a full heal.
Having had experience with both a permanent phantom army illusion controller and a bots mastermind, The phantom army is indeed untouchable, but has its draw backs. Illusion is single target, even if it's capable of dispersed single target. As it becomes more spread out, it also becomes less effective as it heals back should targets not die fast enough. The controller has little control over targets for the phantom army, so there's no way to maximize which targets are eliminated. Likewise, between re-summons a controller is vulnerable to aggro as the new army has to gain enemy attention anew, attention that can be set squarely on the summoner for the past set of PA. (Especially if the phantasm is not cooperating.) A mastermind may have to cope with pet death, but pets can be preserved well enough to keep attention away from their boss at all times. I play a number of characters, and can say that in most circumstances having controllable, aoe dealing bots are superior to the phantom army. Illusion is by far superior at misdirection and control, but has some issues with pet reliability given AI and pets' timed lifespan. |
As to the decoy thing. The technique for maintaining aggro control over a single target like an AV with Illusion is both tricky and requires a pretty significant investment in build. You need to make sure that a Phantasm decoy has enough aggro to bridge the gap between PA casts. If the cycles aren't right the decoy could drop during the PA gap and dump all that aggro onto you. So you make absolutely certain the decoy is there and has done enough damage to be the higher threat. You do that by *recasting* the PA in a way to ensure its decoy overlaps the PA gap significantly, since the firs thing the Phantasm will tend to do is cast his own decoy this can be controlled to some extent.
It takes practice, and a build with enough recharge. Good thing to practice on is a pylon, because not only do you get to practice decoy control, you also get to practice dealing with the suicidal phantasm.
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Yeah, this is one of those things I notice many masterminds don't seem to be aware of. Its not well known: you have to be told this or stumble upon it by accident (or been in CoV beta), because there's no clue I'm aware of in-game that lets you know this is possible. If there's something in the tutorial or something, I've forgotten about it. Although, this does sound like something that *should* be in the tutorial for beginning masterminds.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Ummm...as the leaders/masters/bosses etc. of their pets, masterminds can drop inspirations on their pets 'inspiring' their flunkies. This ability is tremendously helpful when fighting long fights or against tough AV's.
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And useless if you're trying to spread heals around, or distribute damage to pets. It still doesn't change the fact that it takes seven red insps to get the same boost that any other AT gets with one. Any non-MM AT can softcap with four purples - a Mastermind needs twenty eight.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Ummm...as the leaders/masters/bosses etc. of their pets, masterminds can drop inspirations on their pets 'inspiring' their flunkies. This ability is tremendously helpful when fighting long fights or against tough AV's.
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Being able to put one insp on one pet isn't enough. One insp should work for all pets.
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Masterminds should get their own tutorial.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yeah, this is one of those things I notice many masterminds don't seem to be aware of. Its not well known: you have to be told this or stumble upon it by accident (or been in CoV beta), because there's no clue I'm aware of in-game that lets you know this is possible. If there's something in the tutorial or something, I've forgotten about it. Although, this does sound like something that *should* be in the tutorial for beginning masterminds.
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I mean, it'd be nice if every AT got its own subset tutorial, but masterminds need it more than most, because it's bordering on playing a different game, with the differences in what is enabled and expected.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I know it's mentioned somewhere in-game. I think it's in the Mastermind-specific help page.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yeah, this is one of those things I notice many masterminds don't seem to be aware of. Its not well known: you have to be told this or stumble upon it by accident (or been in CoV beta), because there's no clue I'm aware of in-game that lets you know this is possible. If there's something in the tutorial or something, I've forgotten about it. Although, this does sound like something that *should* be in the tutorial for beginning masterminds.
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Using inspirations on henchmen is still a bit tricky, though. Outside of binds/macros, it can be tough to do on the fly. Many times my henchmen get caught up in attacking and don't take the inspiration for a few seconds, which can be the difference between life and death in some cases.
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That would be massively overpowered.
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
One insp should work for all pets.
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[My 2 cents, because I want a break from work, and I haven't read the whole thread...]
I love my Ill/Rad. [And I think Local Man (if he hasn't already) will vehemently agree with your premise.] I also mostly agree, in the following way: If someone was to say to me, "We're going to run some PvE content, not sure what... Pick an AT that you think will be OK in almost any content..." I think I would pick my Ill/Rad first. Main reason: I can do significant damage without ever being un-invisible or generating aggro. (ie, Confuse + Phantom Army). [But that's just one main reason for me; there are other reasons, of course, and others will certainly mention other criteria.)
Now, there are most likely several others (Crab seems to be a good possibility) but that's my quick take. Now to read the rest of the thread...
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Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
One insp should work for all pets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That would be massively overpowered.
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LOL. That is the most diplomatic way I have ever seen of saying, |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Implicitly, that's how I myself personally define versatility. Given all the different situations the game can throw at us, combined with all the different situations our team mates can throw at us, how many different tools do we have to effectively deal with all of those different situations.
My Ill/Rad was the first of my alts that spent a significant percentage of her leveling on pugs. Versatility was not just useful, but practically mandatory back then. Its where I first grew to appreciate how many different ways she had to deal with often highly suboptimal situations. |
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Originally Posted by galadiman
[My 2 cents, because I want a break from work, and I haven't read the whole thread...]
I love my Ill/Rad. [And I think Local Man (if he hasn't already) will vehemently agree with your premise.] I also mostly agree, in the following way: If someone was to say to me, "We're going to run some PvE content, not sure what... Pick an AT that you think will be OK in almost any content..." I think I would pick my Ill/Rad first. Main reason: I can do significant damage without ever being un-invisible or generating aggro. (ie, Confuse + Phantom Army). [But that's just one main reason for me; there are other reasons, of course, and others will certainly mention other criteria.) Now, there are most likely several others (Crab seems to be a good possibility) but that's my quick take. Now to read the rest of the thread... |
Others have echoed that sentiment, a sentiment I agree with. Perhaps I started off incorrectly by listing effects, perhaps it would be better if I were to list the kinds of situations I think Ill/Rad excels in, and see if others can list alternate lists for other things. To me its less interesting to debate whether a perma-dom dominator is more or less versatile than an Ill/Rad controller, but in what ways specifically are they versatile. Its bound to be in slightly or significantly different ways.
My Ill/Rad can:
Stealth and recall a team with Superior Invisibility and Recall Friend (or vet recall)
Teleport to safety and rez with recall and Mutation
Tank single hard targets like AVs and Giant Monsters with the Phantom Army
Defeat things with zero aggro with deceive and the PA
Apply permaable and high order regeneration debuffs to high regeneration targets with Lingering Radiation
Debuff single targets or clustered targets with Rad infection and Enervating Field
Generate an emergency high order AoE hold with EMP
Buff damage, regen, and recharge with Accelerate Metabolism
She's good in:
Hami Raids: buff, AoE heals, regen debuff, holds, ranged damage
Task forces: good AV aggro control and debuff tools
General teaming: decent team buffing with AM and GI, recall and rez, some control, decent healing ability
Mothership raids: good against pylons, good with clickies (PA and ST outside the grate, click in relative safety), good against the Rikti. Rez gets a workout here also.
Stealthable missions: the only thing better is a stalker with stacked stealth
Soloing: reasonably balanced offense and defense for this
Giant Monster fights: PA + LR + Toggles
STF: Good against AVs in general, GW cannot heal off of PA. PA and decoy can tank LR in a pinch (with difficulty).
Weaknesses:
Soloing large numbers: the chaotic control of Illusion and the toggle dependence of some of the debuffs can easily overwhelm Ill/Rad. EMP is there for emergencies, but it cannot be used continuously.
Soloing extreme melee threats: good at AVs in general, but while the PA can tank things like Envoy of Shadows or Ghost Widow, the phantasm is an all-ranged pet that suicidally closes to melee range anyway, and is not strong enough to survive up close. Without the Phantasm, Illusions is very low on damage to take things out solo. My Ill/Rad can solo a pylon, so I can defeat such targets eventually but my Ill/Rad is actually not that much faster than my MA/SR even with Lingering Radiation.
Pet limitations: PA require very high global recharge to be available continuously. The spectral terror doesn't move.
Controlling in a large team: Illusion has only two hard controls: Blind and Flash. One single target and one AoE control. The rest comes from pseudo controls: the PA and the Spectral terror. These combined controls can be very powerful when focused, but when diffused throughout the large numbers of a large team, that control can be minimized. Rad has a PBAoE hold, but it also has limitations (disclosure: my current build doesn't take it).
No ranged heal: the only way you can heal anyone is to be standing fairly close to them and hit them with a PBAoE heal. You can't substitute for something that has a strong single target ranged heal.
Limited ability to improve tohit: my build takes tactics, but Ill/Rad in general does not have the ability to hit hard to hit targets except for the use of Radiation Infection. It takes significant time to deploy for that purpose, and has limitations due to being a toggle debuff.
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I'm late to the game, but I have to chime in with my Traps / Dark defender.
The sheer number and variety of damage procs available to a Trapper means she's contributing DPS (sometimes, a *lot* of DPS) even while she's in the setting phase of defendering -- something that catches up my Dark / Dark defender.
For safety, you have +regen, +defense, -ToHit, and -damage, so Traps stacks nicely with other mitigation-focused sets.
Some control with: AoE slow; ST immob; ST slow; AoE slow; AoE immob; AoE puke; AoE hold; several sources for disorient.
Significant offensive boost with (stackable) Acid Mortar (-resistance, -defense, with some additional -resistance with a proc).
A useful nasty trick with a powerful, AoE -regen.
Full leadership (soft-capped defense for 7 people with Vengeance).
On fast teams, my Dark / Dark defender seems to get stuck in long animations -- by the time Tar Patch is out, most of the minions have already been defeated.
The better the team, the less well my ff / rad performs (but she's insanely good on bad PuGs) -- she provides (mostly) one trick mitigation when a fuller arsenal of tricks would be better on some teams.
My insanely expensive fire / fire perma-dom? She's tricky to evaluate. One-shot AoE mezzing (non-Roman) bosses is a great trick, but she's an aggro pig that sometimes suffers from excessive attention from non-mezzed mobs. A glass cannon, if you will.
My trapper, IME, hits my sweet spot in teams.
Edit: as for weaknesses? It's mostly an AoE carnage build, so taking down a boss is /much/ harder than taking down, say, 20 minions (she's very solid in ambushes). She can significantly weaken AVs, but it's mostly so that others can lay on the real beatdown.
I don't know that there are any 100% winners out there, but I would agree that Ill/Rad is up there. I have avoided the set for years because of its... flavor of the game(?) status, but I had a random idea for a Resistance character that may or may not be completely insane (though that might be part of the illusion he creates), and I have been quite taken with the idea. After leveling, and trying to level, a few Controller characters, he is quite versatile. I've been able to solo with him before pet levels (something I find interminable on any other Controller I have attempted it with), and he can do so much for teams. Maybe a little weak on AOE hard controls, but debuffs and soft controls abound there.
Not sure if anyone has thrown this out earlier (skimmed the thread as best I could), but Earth/Storm Controllers should have some consideration here. They also have a stealth power (though you need an IO to round it off), which does make it easier to have that utility on teams. Has some good debuffs, if not quite as strong as Rad or Cold, and it is quite good at locking down multiple groups. I've had more than a few groups be saved by this controller after we aggroed multiple mobs. My multiple AOE debuffs and controls slowed down the incoming foes enough for the groups to win out.
I'd also say the epic ATs are candidates: they're maybe not too strong in any direction, but they're able to help out in a variety of situations. My Peacebringer was in PUGs most of his way to 50 (that I usually led), and his ability to fill in missing needs on the team (Tank, Blaster, etc.) was extremely helpful. There are variations among the epics, of course, but they are usually quite versatile.
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As to insps being overpowered for MMs, let's say, for simplicity, that each tier does 1/3 damage (I have no idea how close this is to true)
That would mean boss pet does 1/3 damage of your total damage
a lieut pet does 1/6 of your total damage
a minion pet does 1/9 of your total damage
If I'm playing a Scrapper, or a Brute, or every other AT that does their own damage and I consume a T1 red inspiration, my total damage increases by 25% for 60 seconds.
If I'm playing an MM and I drop a T1 red insp on my boss pet (best case) my total damage increases by 1/3 * (.25) = 8.33333%.
If I put in on a minion pet (say, Arsonist) I get 1/9 * .25 = a whopping 2.7% damage increase, almost 10% of what other ATs get.
In no way is inspiration consumption by MMs "fair". I'm not going to make this a "cause" but the discrepancy is very real.
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Well, if your damage does increase by 25%, it's because you have absolutely nothing else buffing your damage. On a brute, that's impossible, unless you're not fighting.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
If I'm playing a Scrapper, or a Brute, or every other AT that does their own damage and I consume a T1 red inspiration, my total damage increases by 25% for 60 seconds.
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Okay, so, let's assume you've got damage slotted. A random power does 100 base damage, it's slotted for 96% damage increase, so it's doing 196 damage. You use a red inspiration. Now it's got a 121% damage increase and it's doing 221 damage. 221/196 is roughly a 12.75% increase in total damage.
Your argument of "It's not overpowered because I have no idea how pet damage works" isn't the most effective argument I've seen for something. I'd suggest actually figuring out how pet damage works so you have a better argument.
MajorDecoy, you may want to check out the below link about how inspirations work.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Inspirations
Hope it helps!
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Deacon, if you're going to try to be a smart-***, you should be right when trying to correct someone. Damage inspirations enhance from base damage, not from enhanced damage.
My apologies MajorDecoy, I underestimated how precise my wording needed to be. I should indeed have stated "base damage" instead of "damage" so as not to confuse the MajorDecoys of the world.
Everything in that post was simply illustrative to make the point that a MM gets less from using an inspiration than other non-pet centric ATs. That's it, the details were not intended to be precise.
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When I think of "versatile", I am only really looking for how well this character does in certain categories. Just because my Bane took Aid Other, it doesn't make him a "good" healer.
However, my Bane can do 3-4 categories "really well" and that makes him a versatile character on the team.
1. He debuffs resistance well (which means more damage for the team) and is valuable against AVs.
2. He has very high damage (and burst damage). He can take on damage role easily.
3. He provides great team defense-against-all up to 19-20% around him, which makes him valuable especially at lower level when people don't have soft-capped defense.
4. He can stealth just as well as Stalker so in case the team needs to scout and tp, I can do it.
5. Semi-role in meatshield: I have almost soft-capped defense and if I am on a team with anyone with Maneuver (or if I eat one small purple), I can handle alpha in most situations. I can't do it in LRSF but in most cases, my Bane can take quite a bit of beating. Mind you, I am NOT a tanker. I can't control aggro. I can handle alpha aggro and take hits. I can easily start the fight with BU + Crowd Control and use Web Envelop to immb mobs.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.