Want a Notice of the Well solo? That'll be...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-10 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So...
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Is there a reason, other than "it's an MMO!", for the end game to be "team-based"?
Remember, the "MMO" did not start with Ultima Online. That was just when they added graphical sprites.
You don't like to play with the market.
You don't wanna do Tip/Alignment missions to earn Alignment Merits.
You don't like to do TF longer than 90 minutes.
You don't like to do TF Speedruns.
You don't like to utilize AE.
You don't like to farm.
You don't have time or don't want to team.
Edit: You don't want to wait any more than other players in getting the NotW.
Would it be okay if someone comes up to you and just hands you a Notice of the Well? Would you like it if they also gave you a nice pat on the back and a pony?
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Can you tell me WHY you should be entitled to a Very Rare Alpha Ability when you refuse to utilize almost 90% of the game mechanics given to you in order to advance you in the game?
Adapt to change. Upgrade. Learn to try new things. Otherwise understand that things have costs associated with them, however trivial or non-trivial they may be.
Personally, I like this. If it was up to me, I'd even increase the amount of Inf. required for this. It could give some structure to the market inflation. Maybe have multiple ways of acquiring this. Maybe a recipe that costs 200,000,000 Inf., but less shards for the rich and lazy, and then a recipe that costs less Inf., and more shards for the poor and determined.
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Wisdom from the Arcana once more. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There should probably be a slightly more moderate path in the middle.
I'm not going to repeat my position on that score, since you know what that is (and I yours). Regardless of the fact that it was inevitable that "any path is better than none" would turn into "what lunatic designed this path" its probably objectively safe to say that exactly as I warned would happen the quick and dirty solo path would have to be scaled initially too high, just because of the rule that its easier to scale down than ramp up. The best thing to do is probably to let the inevitable venting occur because it is inevitable, while the system's balance is analyzed more carefully. Just because people got what they asked for, doesn't mean they got what they deserve. Reward systems should be arbitrated, as Ross says in A Few Good Men, without passion or prejudice. |
I remember the 'scaling down instead of up' thing being talked about one Beta, as well.
Doesn't stop my eyebrows doing a little jig at the current implimentation though
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That's overly excessive, That whole thing there. Bad form Devs! boo hisss. |
Originally Posted by Necrotron
 One hundred MILLION dollars.  That is a whole lot of cash. That means a top tier Alpha, with its one Favour and two third-tier Alphas (one Notice each) in the recipie, will costs 400 million influence. |
Ok only 40 shards isn't bad, not counting all the other items you'll have to make...
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No, even the 40 isn't very reasonable. That's 160 to get the top-tier, when a solo player may get one a day, not counting the other salvage required. why should someone put in Half a year's play time into getting something someone else can get in a few days? |
Originally Posted by Djeannie
That's overly excessive, That whole thing there. Bad form Devs! boo hisss.
Ok only 40 shards isn't bad, not counting all the other items you'll have to make... |
At least the path is there. And perhaps it will be modified downward to something where a soloer isn't treated so poorly just because of their preferred style of play.
I'm not a soloer, but I see a lot of injustice in this system and hope it'll be corrected over time.
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Just a quick point... That's not always the case. The random number generator and luck still play a huge part in drop rates, even on Hami raids. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If you're on a server that raids Hami, that's almost a guaranteed 7-10 shards for a very limited group commitment.
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Using my own experience as an example of what happens when the RNG doesn't favor you... On the first Hami I took part in, my *only* shards were the four I picked as a success reward. (Many, many GMs and mitos were hit by my team and I. We were the yellow melee team, so it's not like we weren't killing things-) The second run, with the same MO and group? I got exactly one.
Hami was actually a worse time-investment from a shard-gathering point o view than just hopping into an ITF. (Not that all TFs have given me very good results either. I main-tanked a "kill everthing that moves" LGTF and came out with... 2. And joined another person's "kill most" with my DB scrap that was a complete bust. No shards at all. o_0)
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I did say almost. |
Originally Posted by Bright
Just a quick point... That's not always the case.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Three weeks at least.|
Originally Posted by Ardrea
No, even the 40 isn't very reasonable. That's 160 to get the top-tier, when a solo player may get one a day, not counting the other salvage required. why should someone put in Half a year's play time into getting something someone else can get in a few days?
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At least the path is there. And perhaps it will be modified downward to something where a soloer isn't treated so poorly just because of their preferred style of play. I'm not a soloer, but I see a lot of injustice in this system and hope it'll be corrected over time. |
EDIT: BTW How are soloers being treated poorly exactly? People who solo aren't prohibited from joining groups. That's the behavior the developers are trying to encourage. Why do you believe they should not be entitled to encourage that behavior?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If the Random Number Fairy really hates you, it's more like "Once in a blue moon, if all the stars are lined up just right and the groundhog hasn't seen his shadow in three years running". |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I did say almost.
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@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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The use of the word "injustice" is pretty loaded, especially if you relate this situation (as I did in my last post in this thread) to the fate of the Isolator badge.|
Originally Posted by Ardrea
No, even the 40 isn't very reasonable. That's 160 to get the top-tier, when a solo player may get one a day, not counting the other salvage required. why should someone put in Half a year's play time into getting something someone else can get in a few days?
At least the path is there. And perhaps it will be modified downward to something where a soloer isn't treated so poorly just because of their preferred style of play. I'm not a soloer, but I see a lot of injustice in this system and hope it'll be corrected over time. |
If history serves as any guide the soloers will have to live with this "injustice" for perhaps 6 months or a year until the system evolves to the point where getting Notices become relatively trivial for everyone. I guess it's up to each soloer if they want to accept that reality or not. *shrugs*
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Oh it's never that bad. Lady Loot can be mean on occassion, but over time she always takes care of you.
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Originally Posted by Bright
If the Random Number Fairy really hates you, it's more like "Once in a blue moon, if all the stars are lined up just right and the groundhog hasn't seen his shadow in three years running".
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Because the half-a-year player can also get it in a few days?|
Originally Posted by Ardrea
No, even the 40 isn't very reasonable. That's 160 to get the top-tier, when a solo player may get one a day, not counting the other salvage required. why should someone put in Half a year's play time into getting something someone else can get in a few days?
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Originally Posted by Djeannie
Ok only 40 shards isn't bad, not counting all the other items you'll have to make...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I don't really see the connection. Isolator was something people didn't have because it literally didn't exist at the time. Everyone has the same access to Incarnate salvage, it's just that some people don't want to do the things that get you the rarer pieces.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I can't help but to draw parallels between this "soloers want a way to get Notices" situation and the long and infamous history of the Isolator badge.
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A more apt comparison would be someone knowingly skipping the tutorial and wanting the Isolator badge, but refusing to do the Ouroboros introduction arc, IMO.
Edit: As far as just getting shards goes, I don't see why there's a big deal. Even the most die hard 'soloer' can get into an ITF and 30 minutes later be guaranteed 3 shards (select the incarnate salvage for the reward and break it down).
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The Isolator situation was significantly more unfair than this IMO. Folks whose characters existed before badges COULD NOT earn that bad in ANY way. And it took 5 issues (from 2-7) before there was ANY way to do it.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The use of the word "injustice" is pretty loaded, especially if you relate this situation (as I did in my last post in this thread) to the fate of the Isolator badge.
If history serves as any guide the soloers will have to live with this "injustice" for perhaps 6 months or a year until the system evolves to the point where getting Notices become relatively trivial for everyone. I guess it's up to each soloer if they want to accept that reality or not. *shrugs* |
Here, people are gating themselves from the Notice.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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In my opinion, in some respects its a bit too high, but its not a totally outrageous first cut at it. There's a wide range of soloers, and that is not out of the reach of all of them. Probably most of them in the case of Very Rare, but its not clear that Very Rare needs a quick achievable path for all slots. In the case of Alpha, its Rare that is arguably the "core" peak achievement, and Very Rare is a long term pursuit item. If there are diminishing returns in the other slots, a similar calculus may apply: the compromise between giving fast players something to gun for and giving slower players access to the system is usually to front load: the first 20% of the effort gets 80% of the value, and the last 80% of the effort gets the remaining 20%. To make the system reasonable for the widest possible set of player capabilities, both side will likely have to compromise in some fashion like this.|
Originally Posted by Djeannie
That's overly excessive
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Moreover, the problem with making a solo path that is embedded in the normal teaming path is that its exploitable (lower case e, not upper case E) by teamed players. They can run task forces and trials for components, and also simultaneously hoover up shards far faster than solo players can. The net result is that the "solo path" is also a teamed path accelerator. If its too quick, the teamed people can do both and go faster than intended.
That's one of the many gotchas in trying to do things the "quick and easy" way. A more dedicated solo path would be easier to tweak, so that the disparity between earning can be more moderate. But at the moment, its no small irony that the solo path is bounded in part by the speed of the fastest team.
And that's why I don't generally approve of the quick and easy way. The slow and proper way tests people's patience, but the quick and easy way tends to test people's nerves more.
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You get the choice of a component (on a 20-hour timer per TF) or the normal merit rewards. I just take the merits, generally.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I heard a rumor that all high level TFs give you a component at the end, so you save on having to make them from Shards.
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So, you just keep ignoring parts of the game and continue profess that you should get the rewards on your own, personally dictated schedule.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
My 50s exclusively run at 50 (I hate exemplaring) and also run at x8 and it still took me two weeks of playing to get an Uncommon Boost, and that was supplemented by buying Gr'ai's with Vanguard Merits. And by some reports I'm on the lucky side of shard drops.
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At least your are consistent in that respect.
You also misunderstood my reference to making your next level of power as easy as going from 49 to 50, because that IS what you are asking for...you want to log in, do the same thing you have always done and get the new rewards without doing the new requirements attached to them.
You cannot seem to understand that yours is an edge case, so far removed from the mainstream; that it would hurt the game to implement your desires.
I am sorry you are unable to understand that, I am, I think, finally tired of beating my head against this wall.
You win. Have fun trying to joust your windmill. It's not worth my time to read anything more from you. Peace.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
I don't really see the connection. Isolator was something people didn't have because it literally didn't exist at the time. Everyone has the same access to Incarnate salvage, it's just that some people don't want to do the things that get you the rarer pieces.
A more apt comparison would be someone knowingly skipping the tutorial and wanting the Isolator badge, but refusing to do the Ouroboros introduction arc, IMO. Edit: As far as just getting shards goes, I don't see why there's a big deal. Even the most die hard 'soloer' can get into an ITF and 30 minutes later be guaranteed 3 shards (select the incarnate salvage for the reward and break it down). |
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The Isolator situation was significantly more unfair than this IMO. Folks whose characters existed before badges COULD NOT earn that bad in ANY way. And it took 5 issues (from 2-7) before there was ANY way to do it.
Here, people are gating themselves from the Notice. |
It's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for" and "you can't please everyone" all rolled up into one.
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I just don't think it's a case of the devs spiting anyone. They've been pretty up-front that all the Incarnate stuff is basically end-game, team-based things. IMO they'd be perfectly defensible making TFs the ONLY way to get the rarer pieces - it's not 'fair' to people who can't/won't play those TFs, but this IS a MMO and at some point you have to expect your players to actually group up for things in it.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Obviously it's not a perfect analogy. The main point that I think relates the two situations is that in both we had something about the game a vocal minority didn't like and when they finally got a "solution" to it they complained that they hated the solution as well.
It's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for" and "you can't please everyone" all rolled up into one. |
Instead, the devs have gone above and beyond by supplying a way to 'solo' for Incarnate stuff. Having that at all is a big 'gimme' in my opinion, and even if it takes much, much longer to do at least you have the option instead of never being able to do it because you can't/won't do TFs.
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The phrasing of my post wasn't 100% serious |
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
You get the choice of a component (on a 20-hour timer per TF) or the normal merit rewards. I just take the merits, generally.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You've excluded me from far more activities than I've excluded myself. |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
So...
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Also, I'm pretty sure I never said "I don't care how, just give me a path". You can probably find me saying "I don't care if it's slower" - but this isn't "slower". This is "glacial".
Also: I'm really sick and tired of being penalised because I refuse to game every advantage and exploit every trick to get ahead. I play the game largely the way it was designed and intended to be played (even running TFs every now and then) but I get locked out of things because other people go through it faster and for some reason need to be reined in.
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Oh I completely agree with your point of view on this. The Devs basically bent-over-backwards to offer a compromise that would meet the soloers part-way without disrupting the core plans for their end game system. I'm just saying based on my experience living though the Isolator saga that I pretty much expected that any "concession" the soloers got from this was going to be something they still wouldn't be overjoyed about.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
I just don't think it's a case of the devs spiting anyone. They've been pretty up-front that all the Incarnate stuff is basically end-game, team-based things. IMO they'd be perfectly defensible making TFs the ONLY way to get the rarer pieces - it's not 'fair' to people who can't/won't play those TFs, but this IS a MMO and at some point you have to expect your players to actually group up for things in it.
Instead, the devs have gone above and beyond by supplying a way to 'solo' for Incarnate stuff. Having that at all is a big 'gimme' in my opinion, and even if it takes much, much longer to do at least you have the option instead of never being able to do it because you can't/won't do TFs. |
Case in point:
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You can probably find me saying "I don't care if it's slower" - but this isn't "slower". This is "glacial".
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I don't think the OP screenshots Notice conversion is TOO unreasonable...
Except for the Inf cost. Despite the supposed ease of market use these days, which doesn't always pan out in practice I fidn, 100mil is NOT a small number by anyones rec-
Ok, 100mil is NOT a small number for those for whom this is aimed at, usually.
Even cutting out the Inf cost, or at least a large chunk of it, it would still be faster for those who team to simply do WST, while not heavily penalising those who solo or get to team less often.
Heck, make it just 40 shards. Thats still a large time investment, especially jsut for one Rare. Given you need 4 notices for the Very Rare, thats still 160 shards needed just for the notices. I don't think anyone could call that 'faster than the WST'
Oh, and make the conversion like the VG merits for Gr'ai Matter; can only be done once a week.
Voila; equality and balance restored. Is that really that hard?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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^^^: I actually find the Inf costs less of an issue than the shards. I'm no market mogul or anything but 100 million really doesn't take all that long to make if you're actually playing level 50s instead of making alts, in my experience.
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Oh. Right. Yeah, in that case I think we're pretty much both on the same page. Can't disagree. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Oh I completely agree with your point of view on this. The Devs basically bent-over-backwards to offer a compromise that would meet the soloers part-way without disrupting the core plans for their end game system. I'm just saying based on my experience living though the Isolator saga that I pretty much expected that any "concession" the soloers got from this was going to be something they still wouldn't be overjoyed about.
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I'm not a number cruncher, but maybe the 100 million figure is the average amount of Inf someone would earn while farming 88 Shards solo?
Earning just over 1 million Inf for the period between each Shard drop sounds quite plausible, I think.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Hmm part of the solo path I mentioned in another thread involved combining all current four uncommon components. I know it probably wasn't my idea that made them choose to do the same thing (plus a few other things) but darn it, I feel a bit proud. Granted, their proposed soloing path is shorter than mine was, but it's a good compromise. As others have said, the level shift comes from the Rare Alpha boost, the last tier is simply adding a 7.5% performance in a single aspect IF you were already maxed out anyways.
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