Want a Notice of the Well solo? That'll be...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-10 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Off-topic (I think 
) I personally hate speed runs. Someone on an LRSF insisted on skipping whole mobs and then TPing everyone through whole floors. I find that intensely disorienting, even though I have 'Prompt for TP' toggled on. If I was mod-mob, it also glitches my pets out something awful.
They also made us skip Valkyrie after her rez and MoG. Now, I hate Valkyires MoG. I hate it almost as much as I hate Reichsman, because it is the single biggest 'I cheat' button ever made. She could even dent us. And yet we couldnt touch her at all. And then everone else got TP'd off, leaving me facing one irate AV. I was not amused.
Speed runs, for me, are incredibly dull. I love chewing out entire mobs and cackling a little as the team steamrollers stuff. More crushing, more drops, more fun. And yet speed running seems to be becoming the norm for so many that Im having to start my own TFs (not such a big deal as I used to find it, admittedly) to do what I term 'Alpha Runs'; If it moves, kill it. If it doesnt move, kill it anyway. If you cant target it, drop a damage patch on it for good measure. And Kill Everything!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Surely the solo version should at maximum take eight times the team version?
So a notice should only take eight hours or so to get.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I don't find them "dull" as such as I do still enjoy the rush of doing them... but for *most* of the people who do the speed runs, they have ran them (as in the case of the ITF) most nights of the week for the past year or so... The other TF's dont get a look in due to either difficulty, lack of knowledge, or even lack of time even when "speeded" through.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Speed runs, for me, are incredibly dull. I love chewing out entire mobs and cackling a little as the team steamrollers stuff. More crushing, more drops, more fun. And yet speed running seems to be becoming the norm for so many that Im having to start my own TFs (not such a big deal as I used to find it, admittedly) to do what I term 'Alpha Runs'; If it moves, kill it. If it doesnt move, kill it anyway. If you cant target it, drop a damage patch on it for good measure. And Kill Everything!
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One group of my friends typically run 2-3 TF's a night in the 3 hours that they spend playing the game. (I believe its normally the ITF, Barracuda and LGTF).
I enjoy "kill all" TF's unless the TF itself has "kill all" requirement, because you typically have 2 or 3 mobs that even a full group of 8 can miss out (clockwork I am looking at you) and you then spend a stupid amount of time goiung through the floors trying to work out where the hell they are.
Flip side, if i have the time, I go for "kill all" TF's
If someone never has more than 30-60 minutes a day to play, I really have a hard time agreeing that they should be able to attain the same rewards. Given that they have real lives, which the people who can devote 30+ hours a week to the game assuredly don't (), I'm not too worried about them.
I agree to a certain extent that whether or not an MMO focuses on teamed or solo play is a design decision and there's not much that says an MMO must be teamed content aside from the inherent social aspect of the game. However, an MMO is about generating revenue, and the way in which it primarily seeks to generate revenue drives the design goals to a certain extent. When it comes to subscription-based games, they want you paying to play for as long as possible.
Further, there are roughly three types of people who play, with regard to time investment. There's a whole continuum, but it can be broken up into the following:
- The hardcore. These folk think nothing of putting in extreme amounts of time into the game running at the very highest levels. They're always the first to finish content, and are then usually happy to squeeze said content dry to get the maximum amount of reward out of it. If they finish it too quickly, though, they get bored and look for another game.
- The dabblers. You can't even really call these people casual. They are the ones who can only spare 30-60 minutes a day if that, may be called away at any time, can only play one night a week, etc. The cynical may think these are a MMO publisher's greatest customer, as they pay without playing, but they also have no investment in the game. They may like it very much and enjoy it when they are playing, but there's little holding them back from canceling their subscriptions at a moment's notice. I have no real data, but I suspect this is not that big a group.
- The casuals. These are people who either play regularly, as in every night, or if they can only play a few nights a week they can usually devote several hours at a stretch. They don't chew through content as fast as the hardcores, but unlike the dabblers they actually have a good shot at consuming all the content in a reasonable amount of time; any goal they set may be some time off, but it is achievable.
The casuals are who NCSoft want. They're the largest segment of the playerbase, and they play often enough that as long as you keep dangling rewards in front of their faces they'll keep playing for a long, long time. These are the people development is geared toward. If they developed for the hardcore players, casuals would be left so far behind that they'd be dabblers, and their subscriptions become just as easy to lose. If development is geared toward the dabblers, then even casuals will rip through content as fast as hardcores do and may well unsubscribe even faster, as there's less personal investment and need to be the best.
Fact is, the person who simply cannot team because they can only spare 30 minutes a night and may have to leave the computer often during that time is on the far extreme end of the bell curve. Any reasonable progression system is going to leave them in the dust. On the other end of the bell curve, the hardcore players are always going to leave a reasonable system in the dust. It is simply not worth designing the system specifically for either of them. Accommodations can be made, bones can be thrown, but not always more than that. If they can manage with the system designed for the casuals, great. If they can't, well, their circumstances are regrettable, but in the meantime there are another thousand customers who need to be served and who can be served.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
You know if the devs think this is appropriate, you should be able to break down a notice of the well into something on the order of 44 shards and 50 million inf.
If that type of option isn't available, its pretty much an admission that the buy the notice is a middle finger to a segment of the player base, or at least the iron fist covered in a velvet glove saying "play the game our way its our vision"
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So at an *average* shard gain then, about 10-20 shards then?
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Surely the solo version should at maximum take eight times the team version?
So a notice should only take eight hours or so to get. |
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Quoting this whole post for emphasis. Very well said.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
If someone never has more than 30-60 minutes a day to play, I really have a hard time agreeing that they should be able to attain the same rewards. Given that they have real lives, which the people who can devote 30+ hours a week to the game assuredly don't (
), I'm not too worried about them.I agree to a certain extent that whether or not an MMO focuses on teamed or solo play is a design decision and there's not much that says an MMO must be teamed content aside from the inherent social aspect of the game. However, an MMO is about generating revenue, and the way in which it primarily seeks to generate revenue drives the design goals to a certain extent. When it comes to subscription-based games, they want you paying to play for as long as possible. Further, there are roughly three types of people who play, with regard to time investment. There's a whole continuum, but it can be broken up into the following: - The hardcore. These folk think nothing of putting in extreme amounts of time into the game running at the very highest levels. They're always the first to finish content, and are then usually happy to squeeze said content dry to get the maximum amount of reward out of it. If they finish it too quickly, though, they get bored and look for another game. - The dabblers. You can't even really call these people casual. They are the ones who can only spare 30-60 minutes a day if that, may be called away at any time, can only play one night a week, etc. The cynical may think these are a MMO publisher's greatest customer, as they pay without playing, but they also have no investment in the game. They may like it very much and enjoy it when they are playing, but there's little holding them back from canceling their subscriptions at a moment's notice. I have no real data, but I suspect this is not that big a group. - The casuals. These are people who either play regularly, as in every night, or if they can only play a few nights a week they can usually devote several hours at a stretch. They don't chew through content as fast as the hardcores, but unlike the dabblers they actually have a good shot at consuming all the content in a reasonable amount of time; any goal they set may be some time off, but it is achievable. The casuals are who NCSoft want. They're the largest segment of the playerbase, and they play often enough that as long as you keep dangling rewards in front of their faces they'll keep playing for a long, long time. These are the people development is geared toward. If they developed for the hardcore players, casuals would be left so far behind that they'd be dabblers, and their subscriptions become just as easy to lose. If development is geared toward the dabblers, then even casuals will rip through content as fast as hardcores do and may well unsubscribe even faster, as there's less personal investment and need to be the best. Fact is, the person who simply cannot team because they can only spare 30 minutes a night and may have to leave the computer often during that time is on the far extreme end of the bell curve. Any reasonable progression system is going to leave them in the dust. On the other end of the bell curve, the hardcore players are always going to leave a reasonable system in the dust. It is simply not worth designing the system specifically for either of them. Accommodations can be made, bones can be thrown, but not always more than that. If they can manage with the system designed for the casuals, great. If they can't, well, their circumstances are regrettable, but in the meantime there are another thousand customers who need to be served and who can be served. |
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I would say average, I doubt we speed runners make up that much of the population. Though depending on the team...even when we steam roll through mobs it sometimes looks like a speed run |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I seriously cannot comprehend how people do these Task Forces so quickly. I must operate on a scale geometrically below most of the player population.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
So at an *average* shard gain then, about 10-20 shards then?
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Something like that yes.
If we are agreeing that the notice requires 8 people working together, for an hour or so, then one person solo should be able to get the same reward by putting in a similar amount of time as the teams combined time.
Then just slap a week long cool down on the process and what do you know, you've got grindy content to make marketing happy, and its stuff the solo player can do as well.
Honestly this 'you must team' mentality is a massive step back in terms of MMO design. Why not go the whole hog and up the difficulty so that to even level up you need a tank and a healer, at all times?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Nowhere in this game is there a 'you must team' mentality. If you want to get Incarnate stuff (at the better rate) then you need to team, but nobody is forcing you to, they are even explicitly giving you another way to get the stuff if for whatever reason you just can't/won't team for it.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Honestly this 'you must team' mentality is a massive step back in terms of MMO design. Why not go the whole hog and up the difficulty so that to even level up you need a tank and a healer, at all times?
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I really wish people would stop posting stuff like the quote above as if it were true and then using it to support their arguments. It just necessitates andother refutation and unnecessarily pads the discussion.
=!+.+!=
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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So, you just wish people would shut up and agree, rather than have their own opinions?|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Nowhere in this game is there a 'you must team' mentality. If you want to get Incarnate stuff (at the better rate) then you need to team, but nobody is forcing you to, they are even explicitly giving you another way to get the stuff if for whatever reason you just can't/won't team for it.
I really wish people would stop posting stuff like the quote above as if it were true and then using it to support their arguments. It just necessitates andother refutation and unnecessarily pads the discussion. |
Because you know that ain't happening, right?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Nowhere in this game is there a 'you must team' mentality. If you want to get Incarnate stuff (at the better rate) then you need to team, but nobody is forcing you to, they are even explicitly giving you another way to get the stuff if for whatever reason you just can't/won't team for it.
I really wish people would stop posting stuff like the quote above as if it were true and then using it to support their arguments. It just necessitates andother refutation and unnecessarily pads the discussion. |
They aren't really giving you an alternative are they?
To get a top tier alpha enhancement, you need four notice of the wells.
Teaming that is four hours spread out over the month (current rate, faster in I20 probably).
Solo that is 400million inf and 352 shards. Shards that it should be noted drop at a lower rate when soloing in the first place.
How can you even consider that a viable alternative?
More to the point who the heck at Paragon studios is misguided enough to consider that an accurate ratio?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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It is certainly very high, but don't fool yourself that they want an accurate ratio. They want the soloable option to be difficult because they want to encourage the teamed option. If an accurate ratio for solo time:team time is 8:1, they may prefer to have a 16:1 or 24:1 ratio.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
More to the point who the heck at Paragon studios is misguided enough to consider that an accurate ratio?
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Would you rather that the conversion didn't exist, and the only way to get Notices was the WTF? Because that's a perfectly defensible stance to take when the system in question is flat-out stated to to based around teaming in order to get people to team.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
How can you even consider that a viable alternative?
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Edit: Also, what Bosstone said above.
I think that we can actually agree that the cost for craft it is extreme...
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Nothing wrong with people disagreeing. I do find it annoying when people flat-out lie about something and then treat it as fact, and proceed to use that lie as the basis for an argument, however.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, you just wish people would shut up and agree, rather than have their own opinions?
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Nothing wrong with people disagreeing. I do find it annoying when people flat-out lie about something and then treat it as fact, and proceed to use that lie as the basis for an argument, however.
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Okay this post may come off as a little offensive, but what the hell.
When did you start playing MMO's? Do you even remember when the genre was just for the geekiest of the geeks? When to even level up you were required to have a team consisting of tank, healer and DPS? The holy trinity mean anything to you?
Design of MMORPG's have moved on from there, and this a good thing. You can argue try arguing that it's not, but you would be flat out wrong. Socially and economically wrong.
You want the system to encourage teaming?
It already does, shards drop a lot faster on teams.
Nothing else in the game requires teaming as the only viable option.
Leveling? Nope
The invention system? Nope
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
The holy trinity and teaming are completely unrelated.
It baffles me that you should think moving away from a social activity in a social game is a good thing. Making accommodations for all types of play is fine, but moving from teaming to solo play is not positive evolution.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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the basis of what he was saying was ignore anything not a mish objective, which means a LOT of stealthing and minimal killing|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I don't really play blueside, Leandro. I'm not even sure what any of that means.
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he was just using kahn as an example, bur for ITF lets say it works just about the same:
mish 1: stealth to the sybils, head outside and get sister solaris to her waypoint
mish 2: stealth to all the cysts and only kill the cysts, ignoring guard mobs and ambushs
mish 3: speed to each general and KO them, then go to the comp and pull rommy and requiem while your fighting the comp
mish 4: straight to rommy and then hit rooftops till the counter is down (kinda hard to speed the last one since the kill 300 objective)
i personally dislike speed runs because usually 3/4 of the team ends up sitting around or dead if they cant handle all the mobs, i usually go with the kill most approach and it still doesnt take more than an hour usually
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^ This is the point I keep trying to make.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Okay this post may come off as a little offensive, but what the hell.
When did you start playing MMO's? Do you even remember when the genre was just for the geekiest of the geeks? When to even level up you were required to have a team consisting of tank, healer and DPS? The holy trinity mean anything to you? Design of MMORPG's have moved on from there, and this a good thing. You can argue try arguing that it's not, but you would be flat out wrong. Socially and economically wrong. You want the system to encourage teaming? It already does, shards drop a lot faster on teams. Nothing else in the game requires teaming as the only viable option. Leveling? Nope The invention system? Nope |
WST = Faster than getting 40 Shards (If you made the Notices ONLY cost that). And you can have the shards AND the Notice. People who do the conversion have to sacrifice MORE shards than those who do the WST.
Make the conversion and WST both count towards 'One a Week'. Bam; both sides win. Soloing is no longer a totally unreasonable option, but teaming and WSTing it is still the faster way.
Win win.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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True. Thats not what is being pointed out though. Making a 'solo option' that is basically saying 'You have to suffer if you do not team and do the WST' is also not positive evolution in a game that has until now encouraged ALL playstyles equally.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
The holy trinity and teaming are completely unrelated.
It baffles me that you should think moving away from a social activity in a social game is a good thing. Making accommodations for all types of play is fine, but moving from teaming to solo play is not positive evolution. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that the cost to craft notice's will be lowered. I do think the price is a little too high as is.
However, crafting it definitely should take longer for obvious reasons. And it's hard to compare the WST vs. the conversion method since the WST is time gated. It takes a minimum of 4 weeks to craft a very rare, so it should take over a month to obtain a very rare the 'solo' way. Now that's only considering the current system that we know. Things can change once we know about how it's going to work with the incarnate trials.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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40 Shards is a lot, but also not unreasonable IMO. |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
I think that we can actually agree that the cost for craft it is extreme...
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40 Shards and all the other components? A tad too steep.
All that AND a rather large sum of Inf? What does money have anything to do with an entity like the Well? It stinks of being a totally arbitrary barrier that also goes against canon.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Combination of Ghosting/Going for objectives only (ie on "lag hill", why kill everything when you only need to go for the Generals and then run/speed to the end of the map?). Possibly the longest part of the ITF could well be the 1st two missions where you need some fairly dedicated builds to ghost and kill the mobs around Cybil/Cysts.
Basically it happens due to knowing the maps so well that with a *good* team, the 1st two missions can basically be done by 5 players, TP'ing the doorsitters for the ambush team just for the ambush at end of 1st mission.
I still prefer the "kill em all" option... and again with a good team you can generally get it done in about 60-75 minutes.
A few of my friends tend to do the speed runs, i am the flunky on the team until they need rezzing