Want a Notice of the Well solo? That'll be...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-10 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
hahahaha im betting it goes live like this.
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Where is the cut-off between "encouraging teaming" and "forced teaming?"
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And again, forced teaming is lame however they dress it up. Make anything achievable by anyone in the game- if you want to encourage teaming, make it more efficient than other methods. Encourage your players to team, rather than punishing them for not teaming.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If the only way to get something is through a team, it's forced. If teams get those things quicker and easier, it's encouraged.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Where is the cut-off between "encouraging teaming" and "forced teaming?"
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So the conversion on test still falls into the 'teaming encouraged' column for you.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
If the only way to get something is through a team, it's forced. If teams get those things quicker and easier, it's encouraged.
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Also, from a Kahn I just did with 2 friends and 5 random people (the 8th person was another scrapper):
No pre-planning, just grab people and go, I tanked Reichsman on my scrapper.
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Provided I'm allowed to add the modifier "extremely strongly" to it, yes.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
So the conversion on test still falls into the 'teaming encouraged' column for you.
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I'd agree with this premise, though I'm not against it if certain things are available for only teams, and other things were available for only solo players, not that every game can achieve this. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
If the only way to get something is through a team, it's forced.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
If teams get those things quicker and easier, it's encouraged.
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Particularly in a MULTIPLAYER game, teaming should be the prefered method of achieiving results. Just having the ability to acheive the same rewards solo is a far cry better than many other MMOs out there, most which not only make it a requirement to gain any rewards, but also use rewards themselves as a gate to yet gain even further rewards.
The closest thing to gated by gear in this game is the emplty alpha slot debuff applied to currently just 2 task forces in this game. And yet, it can still be done its just more difficult.
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And the way you create a preferred method is by encouraging it. By making teaming more efficient than soloing, it is encouraged.|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
teaming should be the prefered method of achieiving results.
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Are you operating under the grossly false assumption that I think "encouraged teaming" is a bad thing?
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Make light of it all you like. Ever since I13 the devs have been trying to move to a game that moves at a fixed rate no matter what. That isn't a game its a bad television show.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It could be an iron fist in a velvet glove flipping you off - only one hand would be used, of course, as the other would be needed for slapping your face.
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You should put your sig to work Eiko, briefly describe your starting position and what you hope to accomplish through open discussion. With the amount of post you've added to your count in the last week with the various threads you've had discussions in it doesn't seem fair to jump on people for not having misinterpreted what your position is.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
And the way you create a preferred method is by encouraging it. By making teaming more efficient than soloing, it is encouraged.
Are you operating under the grossly false assumption that I think "encouraged teaming" is a bad thing? |
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Make light of it all you like. Ever since I13 the devs have been trying to move to a game that moves at a fixed rate no matter what. That isn't a game its a bad television show.
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Are you talking about changing the leveling curve from levels 10 to 40 or Patrol XP? Or something else?
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A CoH TV show would be fun - I'd go for a 60s Batman vibe for it |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Make light of it all you like. Ever since I13 the devs have been trying to move to a game that moves at a fixed rate no matter what. That isn't a game its a bad television show.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I apologize for misinterpreting your many posts to which you were were oppossed to the idea of joining a task force in order to gain a reward faster than it took you to earn it by soloing. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
And the way you create a preferred method is by encouraging it. By making teaming more efficient than soloing, it is encouraged.
Are you operating under the grossly false assumption that I think "encouraged teaming" is a bad thing? |
If by such posts were trying to say that its a good thing to accomplish things faster on a team than solo, then I definitely misunderstood your stance on the subject.
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At the time I made those posts, it was impossible to gain the reward without teaming. The craftable option was only announced a few days ago.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
I apologize for misinterpreting your many posts to which you were were oppossed to the idea of joining a task force in order to gain a reward faster than it took you to earn it by soloing.
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Hmmm....IIRC from the Beta, didn't shard drops on a team roll for everyone when a roll was made?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's really got not much to do with farming, but it does have something to do with how fast you can defeat stuff, which farmers strive to achieve at very high rates.
Let's say you're on a 8-man team, and the team defeats things such that drops are produced at some average rate X. Every time something drops, someone is chosen to receive it at random. Your average rate of getting something is X/8. Let's say you go soloing. Alone, you can defeat stuff at a rate that's crates drops at, say, just 20% of what the team could, or X/5. But you get to keep all of those yourself. X/5 is 1.6x as many drops per time as X/8. Edit: To be clear, the X/5 number in particular is picked out of thin air, and is purely for illustration purposes. If your character is a poor soloist, it's easy to imagine that X/8 is an improvement over what they can manage alone. If they're a strong soloist, it may not be. |
So, on a x8 team when someone killed a minion then x8 appropriate rolls were made?
I remember there being a mini hubub about that too...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If no one is complaining about Very Rare/Purple items, they're too easy to get.
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How does this have anything to do with me saying that I get annoyed when people use lies as the basis for their arguments?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Okay this post may come off as a little offensive, but what the hell.
When did you start playing MMO's? Do you even remember when the genre was just for the geekiest of the geeks? When to even level up you were required to have a team consisting of tank, healer and DPS? The holy trinity mean anything to you? Design of MMORPG's have moved on from there, and this a good thing. You can argue try arguing that it's not, but you would be flat out wrong. Socially and economically wrong. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
All that AND a rather large sum of Inf? What does money have anything to do with an entity like the Well? It stinks of being a totally arbitrary barrier that also goes against canon.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And (one more time) making players only able to Convert a Notice OR Earn one via WST, so a One a Week no matter the method, would also stop exploitation.
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Originally Posted by Bright
FCM and I regularly duo missions set at x4. By your reasoning, then, we should be able to get all the goodies in about twice the time it takes a full team, right? We are, after all, plowing through half-a-team's worth of mission.
Heh. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And again, forced teaming is lame however they dress it up. Make anything achievable by anyone in the game- if you want to encourage teaming, make it more efficient than other methods. Encourage your players to team, rather than punishing them for not teaming.
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A_W, I have a serious question here. Why does it matter so much to you wether soloers get their options or not? You have your method, you clearly don't mind it, and it is guarenteed to be faster than whatever soloists get because...well, because. We all know that.
I just find it curious that so many people who obviously don't have any issue finding teams and whatnot seem so intent on muscling in on other peoples playing methods...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, first of all using the term 'soloer' is kind of misleading. A soloer can team up and stuff, the word doesn't mean they only solo. Thus why you see me use the term 'anti-teamer'.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
A_W, I have a serious question here. Why does it matter so much to you wether soloers get their options or not? You have your method, you clearly don't mind it, and it is guarenteed to be faster than whatever soloists get because...well, because. We all know that.
I just find it curious that so many people who obviously don't have any issue finding teams and whatnot seem so intent on muscling in on other peoples playing methods... |
I'm actually glad that 'anti-teamers' are getting an option to do this. The devs are going out of their way to accomodate them when they don't have to, and that's great.
I take exception to the fact that you (general you here, not you personally) will have an option to get these rewards even though you're not participating in the stuff they're normally earned through, but instead of being grateful that it's an option I'm seeing people basically say "No, I want it faster!"
It's not supposed to be fast. It's there as the last resort for people who absolutely refuse to team. If it was faster there would be less incentive to team to get them. And it's been stated outright that all this stuff is designed around getting people to team. The devs want you to team.
Today I've done the following tasks:
LGTF
ITF
Kahn TF
Not one of them took longer than 30 minutes. Can every player expect that? No. Not all the time. But some of the time you can. Playing the WST ensures you're going to be playing at the same time as powergamers who know every trick for shortening these tasks. The casual option is clear to me.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
To continue Geko's line of thought:
Since the WTF has been around I have yet to have trouble finding people to run it at just about any time. Even if you don't have a lot of time to devote to teaming, it seems to me that joining a WTF group (which has a pretty good chance of having at least a couple 'powergamers' in it as alluded to by Geko) and 'suffering' through them stealthing maps or doing their powergamer thing for 30 or 40 minutes in order to get a Notice is far easier than saving up 88 shards all by yourself?
I guess what I'm saying is that even if you can't commit to long periods of play, there are ways to get Notices through the WTF. The only issue seems to be people who won't team up on principle.
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HI.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
I don't think it's a matter of fast versus slow. It's more a matter of the majority vs the minority. I don't say this to single you out, and I certainly don't have server stats and such so this is just anecdotal, but in my experience playing MMOs for going on a decade now the people who simply will not group are indeed in the minority. The devs need to make sure that this system is first and foremost balanced around the majority (ie, those willing to group).
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I don't refuse to solo but I do prefer it considering the time I have and the amount I like to wander away from the keyboard.
I do however run lots of TFs, well maybe not lots, so I am sure I will earn things there.
88 shards to craft a notice is a lot though. It took me a month and a half I believe to earn 68. And that was running TFs as well.
Enjoy your day please.
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I just want to state that I have done all those TF's dozens of times and have NEVER come close to 30 minutes. EVER. On any of the dozens of runs I've done.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Today I've done the following tasks:
LGTF ITF Kahn TF Not one of them took longer than 30 minutes. Can every player expect that? No. Not all the time. But some of the time you can. Playing the WST ensures you're going to be playing at the same time as powergamers who know every trick for shortening these tasks. The casual option is clear to me. |
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I'm sorry, but I came to that conclussion after reading some of your mocent recent posts. Going back, looking at your original posts, only serves to show me that you're stance on the matter has only slightly changed. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
At the time I made those posts, it was impossible to gain the reward without teaming. The craftable option was only announced a few days ago.
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While I agree with the basic presmise that the current crafting costs does seem excessive, - heck I mostly solo as well, even though I'm in a very active sg, they're just not as active as when I am - that doesn't mean that I can't use the same time I play to get together with other people that are on at the same time and still get a tf done at least once a week.
I didn't get to do it the first week the WST was out, I simply didn't have the time, but then, I didn't have much time to do much of anything besides an odd mission or two throughout the entire week anyway. This week was different and I've been able to do more. Heck, as I'm typing this I have a 18 month old in my lap (I've lost count on the amount off errors I've had to correct).
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting you for not liking the way the difficulty in gaining a UR recipe takes. However, that does not mean that you can't still obtain it by teaming for a short while once every so often. The only person that's making things more difficult for yourself, is you.
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Why do arguments against what I would prefer always end up becoming personal attacks?
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
The only person that's making things more difficult for yourself, is you.
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Let's say you're on a 8-man team, and the team defeats things such that drops are produced at some average rate X. Every time something drops, someone is chosen to receive it at random. Your average rate of getting something is X/8.
Let's say you go soloing. Alone, you can defeat stuff at a rate that's crates drops at, say, just 20% of what the team could, or X/5. But you get to keep all of those yourself. X/5 is 1.6x as many drops per time as X/8.
Edit: To be clear, the X/5 number in particular is picked out of thin air, and is purely for illustration purposes. If your character is a poor soloist, it's easy to imagine that X/8 is an improvement over what they can manage alone. If they're a strong soloist, it may not be.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA