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Depends on how many people are around and what sort of match algorithm it uses, if any. If there's 30 people queuing for a 24-person run and it grabs the first 24 to queue, then one drops out, it just grabs #25 and carries on.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Getting that confirmation box would mean the trial is ready to start. You dropping out because you want to finish the mission would put the whole thing on hold again. This could potentionally happen a number of times in a row. Bad idea.
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If enough people drop out such that the remainder have to keep waiting for another player, is that any different from not having enough people in the first place? Should those who dropped be obligated to participate in the trial?
Yeah, it has the potential for griefing. But if you force someone into the trial who can't or doesn't want to play at that time, you have something worse than not enough people; you have dead weight who are taking up slots that other people in the queue who want/can play could be using.
Besides, in my experience, the fear of griefing is vastly larger than the actual problem.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I didn't even think about griefing when making my post. That's not really what I'm concerned about.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Depends on how many people are around and what sort of match algorithm it uses, if any. If there's 30 people queuing for a 24-person run and it grabs the first 24 to queue, then one drops out, it just grabs #25 and carries on.
If enough people drop out such that the remainder have to keep waiting for another player, is that any different from not having enough people in the first place? Should those who dropped be obligated to participate in the trial? Yeah, it has the potential for griefing. But if you force someone into the trial who can't or doesn't want to play at that time, you have something worse than not enough people; you have dead weight who are taking up slots that other people in the queue who want/can play could be using. Besides, in my experience, the fear of griefing is vastly larger than the actual problem. |
The thing is, if there's 30 people, the first ones on the queue might be waiting for half an hour or longer. If I was one of those persons I'd be mighty annoyed to get the confirmation box, click it, only to have to do it again 1 2 3 ... times because someone drops out. It's even more fun if there's just 23 people. A 24th is found, the trial starts and someone drops out and now you potentionally have to wait for another few minutes (or many) before starting again. No thanks.
The 'forced' argument really doesn't hold water. If you don't want to be 'forced' into the trial, just don't join the queue.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Agreed. I run an SG and I still consider this number big. It is also way too limited. You can't take a 9th, you can't run it with fewer. If these things adjust flexibly it could have been 5 to 12 instead of a fixed number. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I consider those numbers big. From some of the other posts seen, I'm not alone here. "Not a big group" would be more along the lines of 2-4.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I really wish you would find some other model to follow. This is the model that makes me not play other MMOs. Is this really what people have been clamouring for?
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Listen to the mustn't, child, listen to the don'ts, listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts, listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, anything can be. ~ Shel Silverstein
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Uhhh I could have sworn that the devs had stated that once a trial has the MINIMUM number it starts no? So if a trial is 12-24, once you get 12 it starts.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I didn't even think about griefing when making my post. That's not really what I'm concerned about.
The thing is, if there's 30 people, the first ones on the queue might be waiting for half an hour or longer. If I was one of those persons I'd be mighty annoyed to get the confirmation box, click it, only to have to do it again 1 2 3 ... times because someone drops out. It's even more fun if there's just 23 people. A 24th is found, the trial starts and someone drops out and now you potentionally have to wait for another few minutes (or many) before starting again. No thanks. The 'forced' argument really doesn't hold water. If you don't want to be 'forced' into the trial, just don't join the queue. |
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From: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...27#post3475627
2nd paragraph under "Accessible"
Once the queue on your server is full enoughno matter how long it takes to get together 8 to 12 playersyou will be teleported to the Trial by forces beyond mortal ken (i.e. the server).
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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This, dearie, is simply a matter of time.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
If they're using the same reward system that the Praetorian events are using, there's not a chance it will be exploited. You can only exploit a reward system if you can figure out how it works.
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Plenty of MMOs have come and not released formula. And plenty of MMOs have had their formulas, skill check difficulties, etc, deduced by players. allakazaham and wowhead are really all I need to say here.
Given enough data, any formula becomes shallow.
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I have, on virtue. Went and just soloed it in the center of the ship and got middling merit rewards. thank god I had an aoe damage power to get credit.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
I don't think I've ever had a problem getting in on a Mothership raid.
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
I have to say I am very pleased with the announcement. The Devs basically resolved every single concern I had regarding the Incarnate System all at once. The only thing I don't like about it is not being able to queue up in the Turnstile while in a mission, but I'm willing to bet there's a technical limitation or exploit prevention causing it, so I can live with it. 
Can others comment on other raid systems in other MMOs. I have played other MMOs but not long enough to try the raid systems out. I am curious, do you think this new raid system would allow you to be on a team (not in a mission or TF as stated) and have the team put in the "q" and have the entire team ported to raid together? or would we have to be completely solo. How does it work in other MMOs? Interested to hear more details
"if I am guilty for what goes on in my mind, than give me the electric chair for all my future crimes"
The little enthusiast on my left shoulder is saying: "Neat, something a little new and different! Hope it's as fun as Battle Maiden! It'll be great to get in and just do these, rather than have to sit around waiting for someone to organize. And if it doesn't work, hey, Shards. I'm liking this move to accessibility."
The little cynic on my right shoulder is saying: "Oh, good, more trials! The coolest thing about being an Incarnate is actually being less powerful relative to everything else. Call me when we're getting actual story content that makes it worth playing at these levels."
The big me in the middle is bouncing between which of the two deserves my attention more, but trying to be cautiously optimistic.
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So you're saying that Soloists can get Notices of the Well now? Or will be able to shard-make Notices of the Well?
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Originally Posted by Second Measure
About That Accessibility Thing
For our more casual players, we have added an option for you to continue to build your way up the Incarnate Tree by collecting Incarnate Shards without doing any Incarnate Trials--you will even get Incarnate Shards when you are exemplared down. It will take longer than it will take by participating in Incarnate Trials, and youll miss out on some epic storylines, but you will be able to claim your seat at the Incarnate table nevertheless. |
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
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Yea I was going with a raid that needed minimum 24 people to start. But that's not important for the point I was making. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Uhhh I could have sworn that the devs had stated that once a trial has the MINIMUM number it starts no? So if a trial is 12-24, once you get 12 it starts.
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Anyway, according to the Issue 20 sneak peek patch notes a confimation popup will be implemented. Which is fine with me (good even) as long as people aren't allowed to join missions while on a queue, (the logic behind it that not being on a mission would reduce the incentive to opt out of the trial at the very last moment.)
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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No idea about other MMOs, but whole teams will be able to join the queue here. The teamleader being the one doing the actual joining. It's in the Issue 20 sneak peek patchnotes.
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Originally Posted by Iggylove
Can others comment on other raid systems in other MMOs. I have played other MMOs but not long enough to try the raid systems out. I am curious, do you think this new raid system would allow you to be on a team (not in a mission or TF as stated) and have the team put in the "q" and have the entire team ported to raid together? or would we have to be completely solo. How does it work in other MMOs? Interested to hear more details
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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You'll have to shard make it (and add some inf). Just read his follow up post in this thread. |
Originally Posted by Djeannie
So you're saying that Soloists can get Notices of the Well now? Or will be able to shard-make Notices of the Well?
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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The problem you're describing is one of implementation, not concept, and in this case implementation is easily changeable. The important part is that you have people who've confirmed they're ready for the trial; if enough people drop that the queue is now below the minimum, there's no reason the system can't say "Hold on guys, let me find more people...okay, 3 more have confirmed, you're good to go."|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I didn't even think about griefing when making my post. That's not really what I'm concerned about.
The thing is, if there's 30 people, the first ones on the queue might be waiting for half an hour or longer. If I was one of those persons I'd be mighty annoyed to get the confirmation box, click it, only to have to do it again 1 2 3 ... times because someone drops out. It's even more fun if there's just 23 people. A 24th is found, the trial starts and someone drops out and now you potentionally have to wait for another few minutes (or many) before starting again. No thanks. |
Further, this would only be a problem in a situation where you have ONLY the minimum number of people for a trial and one or more drop out. If you get 26 and one drops, so what?
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| The 'forced' argument really doesn't hold water. If you don't want to be 'forced' into the trial, just don't join the queue. |
On a more general note, I don't think it's useful to constantly shout that we're not That Other Game. That Other Game came up with a really useful and interesting groupfinding mechanic. There are some bumps, but there are always bumps when you include a human element. If it can be adapted to work for City's different group dynamics, it would absolutely be a valuable and positive addition to the game. Ideas shouldn't be discarded simply because another game implemented them first.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Other games let you join a queue as a team, if I remember correctly.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
No idea about other MMOs, but whole teams will be able to join the queue here. The teamleader being the one doing the actual joining. It's in the Issue 20 sneak peek patchnotes.
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However, the only downside is some other games feature too many raids across too much gamespace that finding a full raid on a whim is difficult at best. Starting off with two Incarnate Raids to add to server's already running weekly Rikti and Hami raids seems like a good compromise.
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Just to clarify:|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Uhhh I could have sworn that the devs had stated that once a trial has the MINIMUM number it starts no? So if a trial is 12-24, once you get 12 it starts.
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If a Trial is set to 12 to 24, then once the queue hits 12 people, there is a short amount of time that the queue waits for more people to join. If it hits 24 in that amount of time, it immediately starts. If the amount of time expires, it starts with whatever number was in the queue at that point.
If, during the course of the Trial, the number drops below 12 from disconnects or quits, then people in the queue will be able to join the event in progress to bring the number back up to the minimum.
Positron
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Quote:
What I'm curious about is how the game arranges groups. If there's 19 people in a trial, does it fill group #1 to 8, then group #2 to 8, then group #3 gets the leftover 3? Or does it split evenly, so group #1 would have 7 and groups #2 and #3 would have 6?|
Originally Posted by Positron
Just to clarify:
If a Trial is set to 12 to 24, then once the queue hits 12 people, there is a short amount of time that the queue waits for more people to join. If it hits 24 in that amount of time, it immediately starts. If the amount of time expires, it starts with whatever number was in the queue at that point. If, during the course of the Trial, the number drops below 12 from disconnects or quits, then people in the queue will be able to join the event in progress to bring the number back up to the minimum. |
Also, are the teams able to rearrange players between them, in case, say, one is overloaded on melee and one's overloaded on control?
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Because 30 minutes is Just Soooo Long!|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Yada, yada, yada. Still requires an excessive amount of people and coordination to work together for a long time.
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| In other words, you need a big group - or a huge group. |
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| Rewards based on how much you participated rather than on *if* you participated? Even worse for the more casual player who doesn't have the pimped out build to put up enough numbers. Or who, gods forbid, might need to go off at a moment's notice for 10 minutes to take care of their kid or some other real world issue. |
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| In other words, you will need a specific team composition working with specific strategies to beat the Trials, contrary to earlier in the post. |
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| And likely no way to suppress them so that your mid-range computer doesn't slow to a crawl and to prevent griefing at the various spots that people tend to gather. Awesome. |
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| Why should it take longer for those who solo or prefer small teams (for whatever reason)? They are already penalized too heavily with lesser rewards (Inf, XP, and drops) for more work as it is. |
-= idspispopd =-
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Most likely for a very punitive cost, yes, and thus for an insane time investment given the low drop rate of shards during solo and small-team content.
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Originally Posted by Djeannie
So you're saying that Soloists can get Notices of the Well now? Or will be able to shard-make Notices of the Well?
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The League Leader can rearrange teams by dragging and dropping in the League UI.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
What I'm curious about is how the game arranges groups. If there's 19 people in a trial, does it fill group #1 to 8, then group #2 to 8, then group #3 gets the leftover 3? Or does it split evenly, so group #1 would have 7 and groups #2 and #3 would have 6?
Also, are the teams able to rearrange players between them, in case, say, one is overloaded on melee and one's overloaded on control? |
Positron
Follow me on Twitter
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Fair deal!
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Originally Posted by Positron
The League Leader can rearrange teams by dragging and dropping in the League UI.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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That sounds like an excellent interface.|
Originally Posted by Positron
The League Leader can rearrange teams by dragging and dropping in the League UI.
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But I'm curious about how is the League Leader chosen. If no one on the queue is in a League, is someone promoted at random? If multiple Leagues join a queue, are they "combined" into a single league behind the scenes, or will they in effect form two separate queues?
Thanks for the answers, Posi!
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
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#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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What about the Leagues themselves? If 112 Scrappers, Blasters, and Stalkers are in the queue, and 24 Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers are in the queue, are you going to get several Leagues filled with no support? Or will it try to distribute ATs among Leagues in some attempt at a balanced manner?
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Originally Posted by Positron
The League Leader can rearrange teams by dragging and dropping in the League UI.
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Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.