Making Origins count

*****Updated due to excellent discussion. New suggestions included to prevent possible problems*****************

*****Updated 2/11/11 with the possibility of zone events******************************************** ***



OK, so lets face it. For 90% of us, unless we're RPing in some way, our origin choice doesn't affect...well...anything in the game.

I mean sure, you have the rare situation where you choose an origin because you need the energy damage from the inherent attack to ignite your oil slick, but really, origins don't affect anything in the game.

And they should. I mean, they SHOULD be a major choice with effects to your character's story and development. So I have a couple of suggestions (updated via suggestions and inputs from this thread) on ways to increase their meaning that fit in line currently with the game, increase the -feeling- of their importance without affecting gameplay or penalizing someone for having chosen an origin before any of this was implemented.


Option #1: ORIGIN SPECIFIC CONTACTS
Lets face it...in comics, a character's "origin" largely dictates the entire path of their career. It is usually the source of their greatest strengths and weaknesses. Superman, for example, can stand toe to toe physically with almost anything in the universe, yet he becomes nearly helpless when it comes to magic. Why? Because his natural origin is entirely related to a physical process (how his body absorbs energy from the sun.)

In comics, a hero's origin also often is directly linked to their greatest arch nemesis, as well. It usually opens them up to the conflict and storyline that defines them, forcing them to improve their powers and skills over time.

The game KIND of has this, in that some contacts offer access to enhancements that are specific to one origin, but in reality, with so many sources of enhancements in the game, and with SOs now being the -second- best, this has become all but null. The only "difference" is the name of the enhancements and where you have to run to buy them.

The game already has a "representative" for each of the origins on both sides, as seen in the Origins of Powers arc, so you could just use those, or you could make some new ones, perhaps beginning with the only existing origin-specific "contacts" in GIFT, MAGI, etc. Regardless...here's how some have suggested this might work:


*The origin specific contact would offer a single storyline related to your character's origin type but like the special contacts for epic archetypes, this storyline comes in stages through out the character's career.

This storyline could be tailored to the archetype; for example, a mutant-hating politician slowly organizing an all out war to eliminate mutants, or a cult's attempt at destroying science from the world, or technological mastemind attempting to collect the specs on all known specialized technology in the world, or a Sorceror attempting to bind all magic users to his will. You get the idea.

*These missions could offer special bonuses to players of the correct origin, as well as specialized weaknesses.
The bonuses could be bonus mission XP for the correct origin, or bonus XP per enemy killed of the correct NPC group for the correct origin, etc, or any number of creative motivators. The weaknesses would likely be because these contacts and missions are meant to focus on five unique enemy groups not seen elsewhere in the game, tailored to that be the "best foe" of that origin. This could be difficult to code if you try and focus on giving the enemy group specific origin-based advantages, since nothing about origin dictates the types of powers or archetypes you play. One possible method might be a sort of temp power affect given during the missions like you have in some missions/zones/storylines. There's the lost mission arc where you become infected, or the -stealth in some missions, etc. Regardless, the idea would being that these foes are trained to fight a specific origin, and as such give that origin some sort of tougher challenge with greater reward, though the reward isn't really game-effecting outside of these missions. Minor on both counts, but enough to "feel" like for these special origin contacts/arcs your origin is actually playing a role.

Another reward given could be in the form of access to special temp powers or enhancements. The way in which you "unlock" and/or maintain these special rewards is by completing these arcs at certain levels ( I would argue level 5, level 20, 32, and 45.) They don't need to be long arcs, maybe 1-2 missions each time (for a total of only 16 missions created if you made red and blue storylines different.) Enough to continually make your origin "count" through out the game, but not be a massive draw on development resources. They would be something like a slightlt better version of Mr Yin's enhancements.

OPTION 2: ORIGIN LINKED ZONE EVENTS

One idea would be to have the origin-specific contacts trigger an "origin-specific" zone event linked to that storyline. So if the Tech origin contact's storyline deals with an alien entity attack earth that "absorbs" and merges technology and biology, perhaps when a character completes the next to the last mission of the final arc of that origin story(around level 40
?) it triggers an origin specific zone event in PI, where Science and Tech origin characters can go and help stop mobs of techno-organic slaves from breaking in to Portal Corp to absorb the advanced portal technology. They work together to protect Portal Corp (or some lesser populated region of PI) like all heroes would during a zombie or rikti raid. Likewise the Magic arc could trigger a Magic Origin Zone event where Magic origin characters fight a spiritual uprising in Dark Astoria trying to spread the darkness curse across the world, and at the end, break the fog in Dark Astoria for 1 "day." Mutant and Natural characters could have a zone event in Skyway where they have to protect NPCs from a rioting mob of villains intent on killing them for being suspected of being mutant terrorists. etc. Those storylines are just possible examples.

These zone vents could offer some sort of special drops, like unique costume pieces (unique to the zone events, not the origins) or special inspirations, or some sort of special "merits" used at a new "store" specializing in unique costume pieces, weaponry, etc. "inspired by" given origins (but not reserved for them.)

OPTION 3: SPECIAL ORIGIN ENHANCEMENTS:

The enhancements could function sort of like "True Origin Enhancements." They would offer a slightly higher percentage buff than an regular SO (where between the 33% of an SO and the 42.4% of a 50 IO), and would not expire like normal SOs. Note: ALL origins would gain access to these enhancements by completing their origin arcs. The same enhancements are available for each origin. A way to keep these from becoming any major game changer could be that, like rare enhancements, you can only have one True O enhancement of a given type on your toon, and can only recieve 1 True Origin enhancement at the completion of each arc. So you can't stock up at level 10 on damage or recharge Super SOs and run around with major damage on all your powers for the rest of the game. You could have one power that you slot with a True Origin Damage enhancement after completing the level 10 arc, and it buffs damage more than you normally would be able to at that level, but you can slot no other powers with another damage TO. You could enahncement four differnt powers with one TO each by the time you complete your fourth arc, or spend all 4 TOs you get on one power, giving it more buffs than normal under the SO system, but thats it. One suggestion made was to have the first four arcs offer the True Origin enhancments and have the final, culminating arc offer one special proc style enhancement as your final True Origin enhancemet, but that's just an idea.


OPTION 4: TEMP POWERS:

The temp powers idea was to branch off of existing origin-specific inherent temps. Upon completion of each arc in the overall storyline you origin-specific temp could be "upgraded" or you could be given access to all new temp powers.
The benefit to this is it's probably an easier addition than the enhancements, and fits with already existing origin-specific "content" like the current inherent powers based on origin. The draw back is that temp powers are already incredibly abundant and few of them are really very useful for most people, as well as the fact that unless each "upgraded" power does the same thing, people may feel shafted by some upgraded powers being more beneficial than others, but locked in to it because of their origin. Still it would accomplish the primary goal of making the origin arcs, and thus the origins, feel slightly more meaningful.


OPTION 5: UNLOCKABLE COSTUME PIECES/WEAPONS

The final idea was to have the arc completions open up "specific origin" costume pieces. These would fit in line with the chaarcter design aspect that origins play right now, but not affect game play in any way. This could be very cool, but would likely conflict with their ideas of origin packs for sale, and MANY users don't like the idea of not having access to costume pieces on all of thier characters. The idea of orign "merits" spendable at a unique story open to all origins for these pieces COULD solve this, still bringing origins into how and why they are aquired but opening them up to all players regardless of origin. This could also expand the ways current characters can unlock existing locked costume pieces, like rulaaru weapons, vanguard weapons, etc.





So, thoughts?

Great ideas, but can I take on an idea of my own?

Origin Respecification... or Origin Retcons.

Especially now with Incarnates, this option is needed more than every. Both my main hero and main villain have origins that don't match what their characters eventually became after 50 levels of playing them. When I first started Friggin' Taser, I had him down as a natural hero. As I built his powers more and more around a robotic arm, it's obvious that he should be tech. And now that he's an incarnate, that complicates things even more.

It'd be nice if, around level 30 or so, the trainer lets you know that you can go to a "Lorekeeper" on either side of the game that has been keeping track of your career and, with the right amount of influence or infamy, you can convince him or her to "change" the recorded beginnings of your character, effectively changing your origin.

Well, for me at least, lately I have not been paying attention to Origin whatsoever. I do plan out my toons in advance for sets I may want, bonuses, and so forth.

So for them to put something now that changes my toons like a +dam, +def, etc. that I could have chosen at the beginning would be quite upsetting. I should have been magic based instead of tech, and the such. Plus how would EATs work? They are locked in origin, so they would be stuck with what the game designed them as.

So I guess if this was from the beginning, sure why not. But now, at nearly 7 years later? I wouldn't be supportive of it.

Ignoring the rest of your post for a moment: +def, even a small amount, is a bad idea. To a blaster +1% might mean nothing, but to a tanker or a scrapper in the right situation, it can reduce incoming damage by 14%.

Okay, now to the idea of specific inherent powers to different origins. I think your explaination for science sums it up. "I don't know why you'd get this power, so you're better at physics than you would otherwise be, which translates for no good reason to improved accuracy." I'm paraphrasing a little, but the spirit's the same. I'm sure that you could go to any university and find 50 people who are really good at physics but couldn't hit the broad side of an aircraft carrier.

Your explaination for mutation is even worse. "I don't know enough about ingame lore to do anything for mutants, so I'll assume the City of Heroes universe is a lot like the marvel universe." Honestly, there are shops that cater specifically to mutants, they don't get their windows broken by protesters. Sister Psyche is one of the city's most beloved heroes.

Just, origin specific powers added at this point seem arbitrary. Let me pick two magic users. Darla channels solar energy through her amulet and turns it into flame that she can blast at people. Lilly chants spells, she picks a target and casts directly at the target.

It would make sense for Lilly to have improved accuracy, because her spells are target based. The person making this character should probably avoid taking AoEs, but that's an aside. It wouldn't necessarily make sense for Darla to get improved accuracy. She doesn't have any more control over where the flames go than a person with a flame thrower does.

Why should a person with a magic vorpal sword and no other super powers have a different inherent than a person with a laser sword designed to make it easier to behead things?

Honestly, a player can say "Well, since my origin is this, I should have this inherent power." and that person will be right.

So then, you might argue, "Why not give them a choice between a lot of different bonuses they can have for their characters?"

To which I respond, "Well, we do have invention set bonuses. If I think my character has improved accuracy, I can build him to have improved accuracy."

Unless you have an excellent reason why a specific orgin should have a specific inherent bonus, I don't see why the bonuses should be tied to origin at all.

No.
It's fine the way it is. Tying it into 'stats' in anyway will just result in even more elitism and 'cliqueism' that exists already in existence for certain ATs, however wrong that perception may be. Stalkers for example.

If this were to happen than people would be doing daft crap like "STF lf stone tanker MUST BE MUTANT!" and other guff.
And you know they would.

So no, thanks. It's fine as is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I would *like* origin to matter...but then I would also *like* to be able to choose for it not to. And I would also *like* for whatever system implemented for origins to expand customization and not be limited to vanilla 'stat bonuses'.

For terseness, if I have a concept for a character who is, like, a religious priest or something that exorcises demons and ghosts, I can make a Mind/Empathy controller that has a natural origin with the ability to have modified effects on ghosts and demon type creatures...

Or a concept for a magic medium that channels ghosts and speaks with demons, I could make the same Mind/Empathy controller that has heightened control of humans (ghost! possess that mortal!) but is vulnerable to holy/religious faith type abilities...

Or, if I don't want to deal with any advantage/disadvantage system, to simply pick an origin but not have to pick a disadvantage at the cost of not being able to pick up advantages.

origins are fine the way they are, story fluff you can safely ignore.

I'd like the origin titles to be opened up to everyone, though- I'll occasionally come up with a character that absolutely needs some specific, ideal title and it'd be nice if I didn't have to check the internet for which origin to take so I can get it.

I would have loved origin type to have more relevance, but I'm also leery of seeing new game mechanics added severn years after the fact. Rather than added origin-specific powers, I think origin-specific missions could be added.

The missions COULD be related to origin-specific contacts that are available L35-50, or it could just be in the form of which tips you get as drops. A way to change origins wouldn't be necessary, unless there were badges associated with the origin-specific content, but they could always make include a way to change / add origins like a respec or something to purchase w/ Reward Merits (honestly, RMs need more love these days).

If you want something that gives a toon a benefit based on origin, you could give a small xp bonus for certain arcs based on origin. This would encourage ppl to play their origins more closely, and by the time you're 50, it would make no difference at all. After all, at L50 you're going for Incarnate, which is a big cosmic / mystic revamp anyway, so origin SHOULDN'T be involved, IMO.

I would be in favor of there being some way to change your origin... there have been many times that over the course of playing a character, I realized that I'd picked the wrong one.

On the other hand, with a lot of my early characters, I simply picked an origin and powersets at random, and later when I tried to figure out how the hell to tie that together into a cohesive backstory, I usually ended up with some really interesting characters.

I got a few possibilities in mind. I agree with other posters, though, that it shouldn't be a game changing issue.

#1)

Allow origins to automatically supply certain types of salvage when making recipes. You don't need it because your origin always has a large supply of it. This, of course, doesn't allow you to make salvage and sell it on the market. (You can still sell the IO's you make on the market of course.) You just don't need those types of salvage yourself.

#2)

Allow origins to make some temp powers without a recipe, just by bringing the salvage. -Or- maybe have stores that sell pre-fabricated temps, but only to the appropriate origins.

Essentially we'd be saying the different origins prepare for battle differently.

#3)

Give the origins bonuses and/or xp when fighting specific enemy groups. Like maybe the Rikti are weak vs. magic (something that gets talked about in the in game story line, btw) or the CoT could be weak against technology?

The formula could be where one of the options that doesn't share DO's is the one you're strong against, and the other option is the one you are weak against.

So:

Science: Strong vs. Natural, Weak vs. Magic
Technology: Strong vs. Magic, Weak vs. Mutation
Natural: Strong vs. Mutatation, Weak vs. Science
Magic: Strong vs. Science, Weak vs. Technology
Mutation: Strong vs. Technology, Weak vs. Natural

Probably the best bonus/minus to use would be damage. You damage the one you're strong against more, and the one you're weak against less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by opprime28 Hey, I can sympapthize. I think getting a "mutagen" inherent is lame as all get out.

Yeah. Very much agree. I think all of maybe two people in the whole community would cry if they changed that, and everyone else would be celebrating. Even if all they did was change the name and description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorDecoy That's because the "secondary mutation" and "Mystic Fortune" are random, i.e. a buffs you can't count on as being available even a majority of the time. And the blue wisp pet is really difficult to keep alive. It's very nice buff when it is, but even on my tanks, it won't stay up past the alpha strike very often. If the pets were more durable, making the buff more reliable, it would be a big deal.

I wish the appropriate origins got a slightly more powerful buff out of it, though, or a special, "origin specific" option were added for each origin, but the appropriate origin got the best special option.