The only way I would even consider supporting any idea that expands the Origin system beyond what it is now would require the Devs to come up with some way to do an "origin respec" that would be relatively trivial/cheap/easy for a character to do. I don't want my main characters, some of which are almost 7 years old, to suddenly find that their choice of Origin wasn't the "best" choice for them. 
The main reason the Devs have favored the long lasting policy of minimizing the effects of Origins is because they wanted the idea of Origin to be a purely RP decision for a character and not have it based on "which Origin gives the best in-game bonuses". This is exactly the same reason why there are no costume items in this game that give in-game buffs. If there was a cape out there that gave (for example) like a +1% DEF bonus pretty much EVERYONE would end up using that item for their costume. The Devs didn't want want there to be a "best" Origin in the game for the same reason. *shrugs*
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^ This sums it up nicely.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The only way I would even consider supporting any idea that expands the Origin system beyond what it is now would require the Devs to come up with some way to do an "origin respec" that would be relatively trivial/cheap/easy for a character to do. I don't want my main characters, some of which are almost 7 years old, to suddenly find that their choice of Origin wasn't the "best" choice for them.
The main reason the Devs have favored the long lasting policy of minimizing the effects of Origins is because they wanted the idea of Origin to be a purely RP decision for a character and not have it based on "which Origin gives the best in-game bonuses". This is exactly the same reason why there are no costume items in this game that give in-game buffs. If there was a cape out there that gave (for example) like a +1% DEF bonus pretty much EVERYONE would end up using that item for their costume. The Devs didn't want want there to be a "best" Origin in the game for the same reason. *shrugs* |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This. Most temp powers are, "sub-optimal". Just make most of the attack powers do extra damage (or really, extra acc). They would still be bad, but less so. Hardly game breaking since min/max players would still not use temp power attacks.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But for actual combat extras, I'd probably dip more into temp powers. There are just some temp powers out there that I really like and would like a couple to keep on a character. Link them to origin and give you a kind of extra task to get them/recharge them would be nice. Characters want/need a power that doesn't pertain to their origin could still pick them up, just with fewer charges.
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I was actually trying to think of of a model for temp powers to make them more available (that is, you can choose a couple of temp powers that 'stick' longer) to flesh out concepts more.|
Originally Posted by DragonTiger
This. Most temp powers are, "sub-optimal". Just make most of the attack powers do extra damage (or really, extra acc). They would still be bad, but less so. Hardly game breaking since min/max players would still not use temp power attacks.
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There was a 'Utility Belt' power pool idea I had that basically give you the choice of 2 temp powers you can keep perma (with limitations of course) at the cost of 2/3 power slots. Fair trade, IMO, and we need more pools now that we lost one.
Another might be giving everyone the option of a 'Utility Belt' but only being able to 'keep' temp powers that relate to your origin. Perhaps giving the option of a handful of slots and 'keeping' a power outside of your origin takes up more of those slots?
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The ideas generated by a few above of the specialized enhancements and unlockable costume pieces would absolutely fit under that concept. The same type of buffs would be available to all, but the method of earning those buffs, and the unique rping costume pieces you get from them would be based on your origin arc.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
^ This sums it up nicely.
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want your origin to count use regualr enhancements they are origin based
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
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When the Origins give bonuses such as...|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The only way I would even consider supporting any idea that expands the Origin system beyond what it is now would require the Devs to come up with some way to do an "origin respec" that would be relatively trivial/cheap/easy for a character to do. I don't want my main characters, some of which are almost 7 years old, to suddenly find that their choice of Origin wasn't the "best" choice for them.
The main reason the Devs have favored the long lasting policy of minimizing the effects of Origins is because they wanted the idea of Origin to be a purely RP decision for a character and not have it based on "which Origin gives the best in-game bonuses". This is exactly the same reason why there are no costume items in this game that give in-game buffs. If there was a cape out there that gave (for example) like a +1% DEF bonus pretty much EVERYONE would end up using that item for their costume. The Devs didn't want want there to be a "best" Origin in the game for the same reason. *shrugs* |
Mutant +2% Resist
Natural +2% Defense
Science +3% Recharge
Magic +4% Damage
Tech +5% End Red
You're telling me, you'd really look back on the origins and complain that if you'd known which origin would of gotten one of those bonuses, you'd be upset?
Those bonuses, which are rather trivial, you'd let that upset you? o.O
I'd still be choosing my origins based entirely on concept, as those bonuses really do nothing for the builds other than have me think "Oh wow, still going to slot the way I was going to slot"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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then you would create a an expextation that you must be a certain origin to be an effective archetype. people would say you magic and you a tanker why? with the current enhancements you can do this anyway|
Originally Posted by BrandX
When the Origins give bonuses such as...
Mutant +2% Resist Natural +2% Defense Science +3% Recharge Magic +4% Damage Tech +5% End Red You're telling me, you'd really look back on the origins and complain that if you'd known which origin would of gotten one of those bonuses, you'd be upset? Those bonuses, which are rather trivial, you'd let that upset you? o.O I'd still be choosing my origins based entirely on concept, as those bonuses really do nothing for the builds other than have me think "Oh wow, still going to slot the way I was going to slot" |
unless you want your origin to determin how much and NPC will discriminate aginst you not much they can do that they allready have done. The devs goal is to make sure that the majority of players can choose as they wish with limits
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
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I actually do wish the NPCs would do more things based on Origin!|
Originally Posted by Catbert_NA
then you would create a an expextation that you must be a certain origin to be an effective archetype. people would say you magic and you a tanker why? with the current enhancements you can do this anyway
unless you want your origin to determin how much and NPC will discriminate aginst you not much they can do that they allready have done. The devs goal is to make sure that the majority of players can choose as they wish with limits |
We need NPCs who see you're mutant for instance and aggro on you like a shield scrapper! For being one of the most feared/discriminated types in the world, it doesn't feel it!
And if people said that about AT I'd laugh and ask them if they really realized just how big those bonuses are.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Dunno, I'm sitting at 43.9% defense vs S/L on my Willpower Brute - that 2% Def via being 'Natural' would put me over Softcap and is the one I'd take in a heartbeat (currently she's mutant). 2% Def isn't trivial when you approach the softcap. People pay millions for IOs that push them ever closer to it (in the case of a certain PvP IO, even billions). It's that big a deal. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
When the Origins give bonuses such as...
Mutant +2% Resist Natural +2% Defense Science +3% Recharge Magic +4% Damage Tech +5% End Red You're telling me, you'd really look back on the origins and complain that if you'd known which origin would of gotten one of those bonuses, you'd be upset? Those bonuses, which are rather trivial, you'd let that upset you? o.O I'd still be choosing my origins based entirely on concept, as those bonuses really do nothing for the builds other than have me think "Oh wow, still going to slot the way I was going to slot" |
My concept would fit just fine as Natural, thank you very much, and for extra defense that's the way I'd go most of the time. That doesn't mean I'm just a number cruncher. Concept and Immersion matter to me a great deal, but performance and being able to take on the hardest challenges in the game are fun to, and making build that can do that is a game unto itself, and an extra free +2% Def would be invaluable.
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Well, I should of likely put that at 1% Defense, as 1% Defense equals 2% Resist (or so they say >_>)|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Dunno, I'm sitting at 43.9% defense vs S/L on my Willpower Brute - that 2% Def via being 'Natural' would put me over Softcap and is the one I'd take in a heartbeat (currently she's mutant). 2% Def isn't trivial when you approach the softcap. People pay millions for IOs that push them ever closer to it (in the case of a certain PvP IO, even billions). It's that big a deal.
My concept would fit just fine as Natural, thank you very much, and for extra defense that's the way I'd go most of the time. That doesn't mean I'm just a number cruncher. Concept and Immersion matter to me a great deal, but performance and being able to take on the hardest challenges in the game are fun to, and making build that can do that is a game unto itself, and an extra free +2% Def would be invaluable. |
And you're right, that last 2% would make a difference, but it's 2% that you could make happen by changing your slotting in your build to.
Really, if people just based it off bonuses, then they should already be going for the origin power with a hold aspect
they're not. And everyone could use a hold.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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So Technology would get the best Self Destruct, Natural would get the best Ninja Run, Mutant would get the best Secondary Mutation, Magic would get the best Mystic Fortune, and Science would get... the best access to Body Sculptors?|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
I wish the appropriate origins got a slightly more powerful buff out of it, though, or a special, "origin specific" option were added for each origin, but the appropriate origin got the best special option.
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I don't think that would be quite fair to Science or Technology. Or, maybe not fair to any archetype but science, if you got awesome costume and body shapes.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
And you're right, that last 2% would make a difference, but it's 2% that you could make happen by changing your slotting in your build to.
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The fact of the matter is that there are characters for which 2% extra resist or 1% extra defense would be enormously helpful. There are also characters for which it would do nothing at all. A stone armour tank in Granite could hit the resist cap against everything except psionic with 2% extra resist. The tank with 88% resists will be taking 20% more damage than the tank with 90% resists. It's significant.
It is not easy to balance a power across archetypes.
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<_< I've made up a build (would never play it as I hate Stone Armor) that had Max Resist and hit the defense softcap, on a tank. A granite Tanker can hit that all on their own.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
So Technology would get the best Self Destruct, Natural would get the best Ninja Run, Mutant would get the best Secondary Mutation, Magic would get the best Mystic Fortune, and Science would get... the best access to Body Sculptors?
I don't think that would be quite fair to Science or Technology. Or, maybe not fair to any archetype but science, if you got awesome costume and body shapes. Not necessarily. There comes a point where you are entirely incapable of adding more defense to a build via set bonuses and enhancements. The fact of the matter is that there are characters for which 2% extra resist or 1% extra defense would be enormously helpful. There are also characters for which it would do nothing at all. A stone armour tank in Granite could hit the resist cap against everything except psionic with 2% extra resist. The tank with 88% resists will be taking 20% more damage than the tank with 90% resists. It's significant. It is not easy to balance a power across archetypes. |
And like I said, should of put that as 1% Defense.
And I would think the +RCH could just mean that helps people hit the last bit of needed recharge to get closer to the best ST DPS they can do, or use their AOEs more often.
The bonuses in the end are rather small, and not enough to really make a factor in "OMG! I need to pick this one!" unless they draw up the build first, then make their choice of Origin based on that, and again it wouldn't mean much in the end.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'm not saying that a granite tanker can't hit it without the bonus. I'm saying that it's easier with the bonus. That having that bonus gives you more freedom with slotting, potential for other bonuses, not needing to purchase the rather expensive shield wall enhancement.
Look, if the bonuses are so small that it doesn't matter, then it's not really "making origins matter." So either you're arguing "It doesn't matter" and there's no reason to add the bonuses, or you're arguing "It does matter" and we need to worry about balance. Make a choice.
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I'm saying the bonuses would make a difference, but not in a game breaking manner inwhich people need to go "OMG! WHINE WHINE WHINE! I would of chosen a different Origin"|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I'm not saying that a granite tanker can't hit it without the bonus. I'm saying that it's easier with the bonus. That having that bonus gives you more freedom with slotting, potential for other bonuses, not needing to purchase the rather expensive shield wall enhancement.
Look, if the bonuses are so small that it doesn't matter, then it's not really "making origins matter." So either you're arguing "It doesn't matter" and there's no reason to add the bonuses, or you're arguing "It does matter" and we need to worry about balance. Make a choice. |
That in the end, that 5billion influence build, is still going to cost 5billion influence no matter which way you went with Origin, if you gave them a small difference to make them different, but at the same time made the difference so small, it's not really that big of a matter in the grand scheme of things.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I would love to see origins slightly more important. Perhaps not more bonuses and I'm sick about getting more and more temp powers but more origin based missions would be cool. Perhaps Atlas city halls origin contacts should give new missions for every 10 levels until 50 is reached. That would give some feeling of making career and you don't have to do them if you don't want to. And something similar to red side too.
Prunejuice is warriors drink.
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And you know this because you've done the research and seen just how much of an impact those numbers have on game play across 12 archetypes and all the powers sets contained therein? Or are you saying that because "Hey, I've picked numbers small enough to be statistically insignificant and yet large enough to be noticeable in game play."|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm saying the bonuses would make a difference, but not in a game breaking manner inwhich people need to go "OMG! WHINE WHINE WHINE! I would of chosen a different Origin"
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The fact is that the average player isn't going to notice a 1% defense buff, or a 4% damage buff. The number crunchers will notice it and include it into the build, and yes, there will be the potential that the number crunchers will be upset because they already hit the 300% damage cap on their tank and that 4% isn't doing them any good. Why couldn't they have gotten something useful?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
5billion influence build, is still going to cost 5billion influence.
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Just the fact that people are willing to spend 2 billion influence on a 3% resist enhancement should show that 2% resist is rather significant to some players (unless it's all pvp'ers buying it for the teleportation resistance).
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Well of course, more and more stacking is what people go for in bonuses |
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
And you know this because you've done the research and seen just how much of an impact those numbers have on game play across 12 archetypes and all the powers sets contained therein? Or are you saying that because "Hey, I've picked numbers small enough to be statistically insignificant and yet large enough to be noticeable in game play."
The fact is that the average player isn't going to notice a 1% defense buff, or a 4% damage buff. The number crunchers will notice it and include it into the build, and yes, there will be the potential that the number crunchers will be upset because they already hit the 300% damage cap on their tank and that 4% isn't doing them any good. Why couldn't they have gotten something useful? If a person is determined to spend 5 billion influence on a build, she will spend 5 billion influence on a build. But 2 billion influence you don't need to spend on one item is 2 billion influence you get to spend on something else. Just the fact that people are willing to spend 2 billion influence on a 3% resist enhancement should show that 2% resist is rather significant to some players (unless it's all pvp'ers buying it for the teleportation resistance). |
And really? Is the 3% Resist going for 2billion? I know it's rare, but I got the -Resist Proc for less than a billion and I'd think that's a lot more handy than the 3% Resist.
And I'm okayw ith Origins becoming more important other ways. I was just going by the OP's idea of small little bonuses.
I'd much rather see enemies that will base their aggro on origin types more.
Ie..."Magic hunters who will target magic types as if they had higher threat ratings." pick an origin and then make an enemy group that targets them.
Might be a little harder on the Natural front, but that could be the one origin that is free from that aggro management, while the other 4 origins each have an enemy group to watch out for.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Lowest price I've seen it go for is 2 billion for the crafted enhancement, 1.77 billion for the recipe, and I imagine that the recipes that are lower than level 50 don't drop below 2 billion.
I'm sure everyone is so fond of Void Hunters, they'd like to see every origin get something similar.
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Wow. And even on posted min/max builds you hardly see the 3% resist in the builds.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Lowest price I've seen it go for is 2 billion for the crafted enhancement, 1.77 billion for the recipe, and I imagine that the recipes that are lower than level 50 don't drop below 2 billion.
I'm sure everyone is so fond of Void Hunters, they'd like to see every origin get something similar. |
And I didn't say have the enemies do extra damage. Just aggro on them a little more.
"Mutant scum!" *goes after the mutant instead of the techno tanker who's just taunting that enemy and not adding on some extra aggro management*
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I paid 2.5 Billion for one. Why not? It's game money - not real money. I already had everything else I wanted, and I had the spare change |
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Lowest price I've seen it go for is 2 billion for the crafted enhancement, 1.77 billion for the recipe, and I imagine that the recipes that are lower than level 50 don't drop below 2 billion.
I'm sure everyone is so fond of Void Hunters, they'd like to see every origin get something similar. |
And that extra 3% Defense pushed me from near 41% S/L to near 44%, and if you understand how the math on how defense works, that tiny changed reduced ALL my incoming damage by almost HALF!!!
Worth it? Heck yeah!
I don't think making origins important is a good idea. It means you have to do five times the work to keep anyone from being excluded, and even then half the people are going to be upset that what they get is based on a decision they made on a whim years ago.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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It doesn't really matter how "small" these bonuses might be or not. That's not really the point here.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
When the Origins give bonuses such as...
Mutant +2% Resist Natural +2% Defense Science +3% Recharge Magic +4% Damage Tech +5% End Red You're telling me, you'd really look back on the origins and complain that if you'd known which origin would of gotten one of those bonuses, you'd be upset? Those bonuses, which are rather trivial, you'd let that upset you? o.O I'd still be choosing my origins based entirely on concept, as those bonuses really do nothing for the builds other than have me think "Oh wow, still going to slot the way I was going to slot" |
If Devs reworked Origins to actually provide in-game bonuses like this without the ability to "respec" our Origins then yes, I would be relatively upset. Probably not upset enough to quit the game over it, but the fact that a choice I made SEVEN YEARS ago might lead to ramifications such as this is fairly unacceptable all thing considered. Why should the game allow a new character to have the benefit of factoring in this new feature but an old character not be able to?
This is precisely why the Devs have wisely chosen NOT to allow Origins to provide these kinds of bonus. I'd rather be able to roleplay ANY Origin on any character without having to worry about whether or not I'm taking full advantage of any in-game benefits. Had these bonuses existed since April, 25 2004 then this idea would not be such an issue. But adding in this new twist almost 7 years later? Why bother at this point?
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Even if they did allow for origin respecs, I'd still be fairly mad. I mean, my namesake character is based off of an Ice Demon from Norse mythology. He was summoned by Circle mystics, and escaped because they made a mistake in the summoning circle. He's a magic origin. He just is. But the 1-2% Defense would help him much more than the magic bonus. So, I'd have to choose between having an origin that makes sense but is sub-optimal, or changing origin to something that doesn't make sense to get the bonus I want.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
It doesn't really matter how "small" these bonuses might be or not. That's not really the point here.
If Devs reworked Origins to actually provide in-game bonuses like this without the ability to "respec" our Origins then yes, I would be relatively upset. Probably not upset enough to quit the game over it, but the fact that a choice I made SEVEN YEARS ago might lead to ramifications such as this is fairly unacceptable all thing considered. Why should the game allow a new character to have the benefit of factoring in this new feature but an old character not be able to? This is precisely why the Devs have wisely chosen NOT to allow Origins to provide these kinds of bonus. I'd rather be able to roleplay ANY Origin on any character without having to worry about whether or not I'm taking full advantage of any in-game benefits. Had these bonuses existed since April, 25 2004 then this idea would not be such an issue. But adding in this new twist almost 7 years later? Why bother at this point? |
Arcs which you can do for flavor, but don't really restrict anyone, are fine in my opinion. I think it would be fun to have single-origin arcs in the game (especially since others could tag along to see them, in case they only make characters of a certain origin, which I've seen on the boards once or twice). However, bonuses and penalties to character stats based on origin is a bad idea, IMO.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Yeah, it's really too late in the game to make Origin-Effects that make an actual In-game difference.
Now, one thing that I think would be workable is how things look. A previous poster said something about Auras/Costumes that were origin specific. I often wish that veteran attacks like Sands of Mu/Black Wand (very magical) could be more given a different look to make them seem 'natural' to other Origins.
However, the more I think about it, maybe those shouldn't really be locked to an Origin. I'd get upset if the 'Natural' Sands of Mu clone looked much cooler than the 'Mutant' one (which my main is). I suppose it'd be better if all looks were available, like the Prestige Sprints.
So, ultimately, NO to locked-in origin specific anything - YES to more variety of anything.